Premeditated Murder #972

[LawRig]

I thought I recalled reading this in documentation as well, which is why I wondered why LBK stated today that the prosecution's claim that the tape covered Caylee's mouth is NOT true?

(respectfully bbm)

I honestly think all these claims are in keeping with the same mindset that lurks in the dark hours of that cold cold night, "maybe she isnt really dead" and the hope in the heart of a grandmother that wants so badly to have someone tell her that wasn't Caylee's reamins recovered and identified.

she wants nothing more than to wake up from the nightmare and holding out for whatever hope presents itself that will prove the hated LE, and prosecution to be completely prejudiced and wrongly so against a) a murderous daughter, and b) a dead Caylee. and the order of her hopes stands as I've listed here. Whatever shreds of deceit uncovered or insinuated against the horror serve to hold Cindy's sanity together.

They insist at the lie in order to diminish the truth, in however form and method they can.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I thought I recalled reading this in documentation as well, which is why I wondered why LBK stated today that the prosecution's claim that the tape covered Caylee's mouth is NOT true?

Yes, it is definitely on the autopsy findings, the mandible was still in it's anatomic position with several layers of duct tape over it and a portion of the maxilla, and the tape was still attached to some of the scalp hair.

 

[Wudge]

I thought I recalled reading this in documentation as well, which is why I wondered why LBK stated today that the prosecution's claim that the tape covered Caylee's mouth is NOT true?

The state has led you to believe that there's duct tape around the mouth," attorney Linda Kenney Baden tells CBS' Maggie Rodriguez. "All we can say is that's going to be a disputed issue."
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/en...omebody-else-is-the-killer-of-this-child.html

That's a warning shot across the prosecutor's bow from an attorney who is extremly capable at defending her position when it comes to forensic evidence. Defense attorneys who have the goods enjoy taking such pre-trial cannon shots.

 

[BeanE]

Yes, it is definitely on the autopsy findings, the mandible was still in it's anatomic position with several layers of duct tape over it and a portion of the maxilla, and the tape was still attached to some of the scalp hair.

And the M.E. took pictures.

 

[Brini]

I thought I recalled reading this in documentation as well, which is why I wondered why LBK stated today that the prosecution's claim that the tape covered Caylee's mouth is NOT true?

The state has led you to believe that there's duct tape around the mouth," attorney Linda Kenney Baden tells CBS' Maggie Rodriguez. "All we can say is that's going to be a disputed issue."
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/en...omebody-else-is-the-killer-of-this-child.html

No, I covered Caylee's mouth and nose and wrapped around her head past the hairline, and past the mandible joint. It formed a pretty wide band.

 

[treeseeker]

I understand the importance of denying the duct tape on the mouth, to defend against murder and/or premeditation. But, why would the defense challenge this piece of evidence if they intend to deny KC's involvement? It's also inconsistent with asserting the mystery DNA.

 

[Brini]

Also brings up the point of what scale denotes the strips as being considered "short".

Is "short" considered just short enough to cover from lip to lip and "long" considered long enough to cover from ear to ear, or completely wrap the head. especially in relation to the circumference of a 2 yr old's head?

My opinion is that it makes none whether the tape was cheek to cheek or wrapped completely around the head. Both airway accesses were completely blocked of a 2 yr old child.

IIRC, the pieces were a bit over 6" long. I know the measurements are in the report. That would cover a lot of space, on a tiny face.

 

[BeanE]

For reference:

Office of the Medical Examiner; Report of Examination

excerpt

Findings
I.
C. Several overlapping pieces of duct tape, over the anterior portion of the lower skull, including mandible and a portion of the maxilla
1. Duct tape still attached to scalp hairs
2. Mandible still in approximate anatomic position with no visible soft tissue beneath the duct tape

excerpt

Skeletal Remains:

The skull was initially received in a separate paper bag with duct tape over the lower portion of the face with the tape still attached to some of the scalp hair. A large portion of the scalp hair was in a mat under the skull. The mandible was still in its approximate anatomic location in spite of comple skeletonization.
(See attached reports by Dr. Utz and Dr. Schultz.)

excerpt

Utz

Attached to the hair and overlying the posterior mandible and maxilla are several pieces of overlapping gray tape.

excerpt

Shultz

A hair mat was noted on the base of the skull and grayish colored tape was noted covering the mouth and nasal aperture areas. The tape remained in place because it was adhered to the hair of the skull. In addition, the mandible was still retained underneath the base of the cranium positioned slighty posterior. Dr. Utz removed the tape...

Opinion: Considering the dispersal of the skeletal remains, it would not be expected to find the mandible in this position unless something affixed the mandible in this position prior to decomposition and the hair matting forming. In skeletal cases involving surface depositions, the mandible and cranium are normally found disarticulated because there is nothing to hold the mandible in place after the soft tissues decomposes. Based on the position of the tape and mandible, it can be inferred that the mandible remained in this position because the tape held it in place prior to the hair forming into a matt on the base of the skull.

 

[Kentjbkent]

IIRC, the pieces were a bit over 6" long. I know the measurements are in the report. That would cover a lot of space, on a tiny face.

Exactly, which in my mind, denotes "long" as opposed to "short" pieces in this particular case

 

[Kentjbkent]

No, I covered Caylee's mouth and nose and wrapped around her head past the hairline, and past the mandible joint. It formed a pretty wide band.

Ooooohhh, Brini! Better hit the "edit" button!!!

(PS..."They" are still a lookin' for a SODDI!!)

 

[BeanE]

IIRC, the pieces were a bit over 6" long. I know the measurements are in the report. That would cover a lot of space, on a tiny face.

Brini, I'm looking for the email that had the exact measurements. I remember them as being 7" to 9.5" long and 2" wide.

The email is in the depths of the recent 1400+ page document. This could take me a few to find.

 

[Imbackon]

Ok, so this is the premeditated page, and the duct tape being a major piece of evidence toward that thought, does anyone worry about the unknown dna on the tape, or is that something that can be explained away.
It has me worried I have to admit, but I am probably ignorant of some facts about this. I know about the forensic lab person's dna, but this is the partial unknown I am talking about.

 

[BeanE]

snipped for space

Still worse is that the M.E. offers both drowning and asphyxiation as viable options, which converts to odds of 50/50.

I'm unable to find that. Can you (or anyone) point me to the document and section please?

TIA

 

[treeseeker]

Ok, so this is the premeditated page, and the duct tape being a major piece of evidence toward that thought, does anyone worry about the unknown dna on the tape, or is that something that can be explained away.
It has me worried I have to admit, but I am probably ignorant of some facts about this. I know about the forensic lab person's dna, but this is the partial unknown I am talking about.

My opinion, if Caylee's DNA wasn't on the tape, then any DNA found on it is probably post-collection.

 

[Kentjbkent]

Ok, so this is the premeditated page, and the duct tape being a major piece of evidence toward that thought, does anyone worry about the unknown dna on the tape, or is that something that can be explained away.It has me worried I have to admit, but I am probably ignorant of some facts about this. I know about the forensic lab person's dna, but this is the partial unknown I am talking about.

For me right now, it is not a great concern in relation to all the other evidence (documents) we have seen to date that do NOT seem to point in the direction of a SODDI, but it will be interesting to see how the prosecution explains it.

I wonder if it is possible if the unknown DNA on the duct tape is the DNA of someone else in the A's household/someone else who had access to roll (if it is proven that is where tape originated from) who had touched the portion of the roll that THAT piece of tape came from PRIOR to KC using the roll to remove strips to use in the commission of the crime?

(For example....roll is in garage and George last touched roll. KC retrieves roll from garage and begins cutting strips...first strip off roll has GA DNA on it)

 

[BeanE]

Regards my post #91 above, the measurements of the pieces of tape on Caylee's skull were:

Q62: 9.5 x 2

Q63: 7.5 x 2

Q64: 9 x 2

all inches, of course.

This is from an email in the 1405 page document recently released. Handwritten page 9660. Email from Brian Carroll FBI to Erin Martin FBI.

 

[Jolynna]

Neither LE nor prosecutors have said or even claim that Caylee's hands were bound. That important, because it means Caylee's hands would have been free to remove short strips of duct tape if they had cut off her ability to breathe.

Caylee could have been drugged. She could have been wrapped papoose style. As I have said many times, KC could have sat on her and held her arms down with her legs. Caylee was a baby. There are so many ways to overpower a baby and keep her hands from her face (for 4 minutes) outside of tying her hands together, I see tied or untied hands as a pivotal issue.

KC was charged with premeditated murder before a body was even found. http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1014/17715453.pdf Obviously hand-binding did not factor into the charges filed.


Regarding the importance of the absence of long strips of duct tape, if a murderer planned to use duct tape as the instrument of death on a person whose hands were free, they would certainly want to make those strips of duct tape hard to remove -- such as wrapping them entirely around the victim's head.As for Casey allegedly leaving Caylee's body on the surface of the ground near a road that is near the home, that certainly does not demonstrate planning, which is part of premeditation. Rather, that more properly points to the absence of a plan.

You're correct. Premeditation can form in a short period of time, but simply thinking that's what took place is not what's truly important. If prosecutors were to allege that at trial, what would be most important would be proving it happened that way. However, without an eyewitness or a confession, I doubt that is possible.

HTH

My repsonse in your quote in red.

Casey Anthony's defense team told 48 hours that there wasn't tape over Caylee's mouth and that a stranger's DNA was on the tape. That doesn't sound like KC is going to say there was an accident and KC panicked and taped over Caylee's face. They're trying to keep KC as far away from Caylee's body as they can. http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2009/10/casey-anthony-defense-team-tells-cbs-48-hours-mystery-that-somebody-else-is-the-killer-of-this-child.html

 

[Imbackon]

For me right now, it is not a great concern in relation to all the other evidence (documents) we have seen to date that do NOT seem to point in the direction of a SODDI, but it will be interesting to see how the prosecution explains it.

I wonder if it is possible if the unknown DNA on the duct tape is the DNA of someone else in the A's household/someone else who had access to roll (if it is proven that is where tape originated from) who had touched the portion of the roll that THAT piece of tape came from PRIOR to KC using the roll to remove strips to use in the commission of the crime?

(For example....roll is in garage and George last touched roll. KC retrieves roll from garage and begins cutting strips...first strip off roll has GA DNA on it)

Yes, but wouldn't they have tested all who are known to have handled it afterward to exclude it being a stranger?
Isn't it a given that they would have already tested it against the A family dna?

 

[JBean]

I'm unable to find that. Can you (or anyone) point me to the document and section please?

TIA

I am guessing here. There was a parallel drawn between the huck case and this case several times. We were also discussing that the victim's airways were taped shut. but the ME testified with medical probabilty because they could not have medical certainty, that Misty Morse was asphyxiated by drowning or the tape. 50-50.
It was most likely translated to be about this case because it was intermingled with the discussion so much.

 

[Kentjbkent]

Yes, but wouldn't they have tested all who are known to have handled it afterward to exclude it being a stranger?
Isn't it a given that they would have already tested it against the A family dna?

Very good point. Perhaps that is exactly what they did (after receiving the initial report of "unknown DNA" and have since learned the source of the DNA, but WE just have not had that document released yet since it would be a later report?