Premeditated Murder #972

[lin]

Remember, re: Scott P- Geragos promised to PROVE other people killed Lacy, yet when the it was the defences turn, he basiclly folded shop and rested. He made EMPTY promises in his opening statement, and then....NOTHING. Absofrigginlootyly NOTHING! Case closed. And his client will fry someday.

I predict KC will too.

I mean, just consider the conflicting stories being told by the defense now already, trying to explain this part of the evidence this way; using a different scenario for another piece of evidence; etc. It won't fly with a jury. One cohesive theory of the case is impossible for them.

SODDI -- Why no report? What were the circumstances that caused Caylee to be removed from KC's sole care and custody? Why was Caylee in KC's trunk? And so on.

Accident -- Where's the evidence to show an accident? (Please testify, KC, please testify -- for the amusement value of the cross exam!) Why the cover up? How does duct tape play into an accidental death??? And so on.

Mental Defect -- No history of mental illness. Cover up shows she knew it was wrong, ergo, no insanity defense.

I mean, we could go on all day about what's wrong with these theories and did for several days in the SODDI threads and accident threads. The jurors will make reasonable inferences based on the evidence as they are required to do and imo will come to the conclusion that Caylee's murder was committed by KC and was legally premeditated.

Having just written the above, it occurs to me that maybe some are defining "premeditation" by a standard dictionary rather than in a legal sense. When considering premeditation, please be sure to use the legal defintion(s) shown on pages 1-2 of this thread.

 

[marspiter]

No, I'm using my long experience in high-profile cases where there the leaks --- or releases of evidence if you prefer -- amount to a nuclear chain reaction.

It's a bit like the sun rising each morning, someday it won't. And maybe someday before the sun doesn't rise, chain-reaction leaks (or releases ... chuckle) might stop before a trial starts in a poisoned high-profile case.

Sorry this is OT to the actual discussion of premeditation however I feel compelled to comment.

There has not been any proof of the DA's office doing anything other then following the very liberal Sunshine Laws of Florida. Further more it was the defense that fought against the gag order. The DA's office has not to my knowledge gone on national and local TV in an effort to poison the jury pool of this case. The defense and the A's have.

Now I have my personal feelings on the sunshine laws but like I said the DA is following those laws and not "leaking" info to poison the jury or otherwise. I merely want to point out that there is no proof to any allegations of impropriety or jury poisoning/tainting on the part of the prosecution.

Once again sorry for the OT but I felt that needed to be stated.

 

[lin]

Sorry this is OT to the actual discussion of premeditation however I feel compelled to comment.

There has not been any proof of the DA's office doing anything other then following the very liberal Sunshine Laws of Florida. Further more it was the defense that fought against the gag order. The DA's office has not to my knowledge gone on national and local TV in an effort to poison the jury pool of this case. The defense and the A's have.

Now I have my personal feelings on the sunshine laws but like I said the DA is following those laws and not "leaking" info to poison the jury or otherwise. I merely want to point out that there is no proof to any allegations of impropriety or jury poisoning/tainting on the part of the prosecution.

Once again sorry for the OT but I felt that needed to be stated.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Like you, I get very offended when thoroughly unsubstantiated and therefore seemingly malicious accusations are made against the one group in this case that have been nothing but professional, honest and law abiding, imo and to the best of our knowledge. IF the state ever does change their behavior and actually does something nefarious, I'll jump right on the bandwagon to condemn them. Until such time as that happens and can be proven, I think it's very unfair to (at best) mischaracterise their actions just because they were handed a case the defense seemingly cannot defend.

 

[Harmony 2]

Regards my post #91 above, the measurements of the pieces of tape on Caylee's skull were:

Q62: 9.5 x 2

Q63: 7.5 x 2

Q64: 9 x 2

all inches, of course.

This is from an email in the 1405 page document recently released. Handwritten page 9660. Email from Brian Carroll FBI to Erin Martin FBI.

Those Emails regard the ME not taking scaled photos of the tape when it was on the skull. Measurements were not taken because the ME thought the full measurements would be done by the FBI. The prosecutor is asking if anyone did take scaled photos, before the duct tapes were seperated, so a computerized recreation image of the skull with tape can be done to show the tape was over the mouth and nose areas. page 638-639

Q62 ~9.5"x2", Q63 ~ 7.5"x2" and Q64 ~ 9"x2" (page 604 of 1405)

I cannot locate the measurement of circumference of the skull in the autopsy. Does anyone know what the measurement was? (to compare with the length of the duct tapes)

I thought I recalled reading this in documentation as well, which is why I wondered why LBK stated today that the prosecution's claim that the tape covered Caylee's mouth is NOT true?

The state has led you to believe that there's duct tape around the mouth," attorney Linda Kenney Baden tells CBS' Maggie Rodriguez. "All we can say is that's going to be a disputed issue."
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/en...omebody-else-is-the-killer-of-this-child.html

LKB may be boasting this claim because of the information in the Email I referenced above.

 

[lin]

Those Emails regard the ME not taking scaled photos of the tape when it was on the skull. Measurements were not taken because the ME thought the full measurements would be done by the FBI. The prosecutor is asking if anyone did take scaled photos, before the duct tapes were seperated, so a computerized recreation image of the skull with tape can be done to show the tape was over the mouth and nose areas. page 638-639

Q62 ~9.5"x2", Q63 ~ 7.5"x2" and Q64 ~ 9"x2" (page 604 of 1405)

I cannot locate the measurement of circumference of the skull in the autopsy. Does anyone know what the measurement was? (to compare with the length of the duct tapes)


LKB may be boasting this claim because of the information in the Email I referenced above.

If she is, then she is deliberately misinterpreting the evidence, imo. Whether there are scale images or not, the tape was over that baby's mouth. (And nose!)

 

[Wudge]

You're forgetting that by law, just thinking about killing someone, SECONDS before actually doing so, constitutes pre-planned murder.

I'm old but not wretchedly forgetful, not yet anyway. A reminder I sometimes offer is that 'could', 'if', 'maybe', 'possible', etc., matters not. What matters is the existence of evidence that proves the necessary elements of a charged crime. And in a recent post, I did state that premeditation can be formed in a short period of time. I also stated that in this case, I didn't think such could be proven without either an eyewitness or a confession, neither of which exist.

 

[lin]

I'm old but not wretchedly forgetful, not yet anyway. A reminder I sometimes offer is that 'could', 'if', 'maybe', 'possible', etc., matters not. What matters is the existence of evidence that proves the necessary elements of a charged crime. And in a recent post, I did state that premeditation can be formed in a short period of time. I also stated that in this case, I didn't think such could be proven without either an eyewitness or a confession, neither of which exist.

Please explain how this does not conflict with your other posts regarding your stated opinion that lack of pre-planning of body disposal mitigates against premeditation.

 

[Wudge]

Sorry this is OT to the actual discussion of premeditation however I feel compelled to comment.

There has not been any proof of the DA's office doing anything other then following the very liberal Sunshine Laws of Florida. Further more it was the defense that fought against the gag order. The DA's office has not to my knowledge gone on national and local TV in an effort to poison the jury pool of this case. The defense and the A's have.

Now I have my personal feelings on the sunshine laws but like I said the DA is following those laws and not "leaking" info to poison the jury or otherwise. I merely want to point out that there is no proof to any allegations of impropriety or jury poisoning/tainting on the part of the prosecution.

Once again sorry for the OT but I felt that needed to be stated.

The effect is the same. Sunshine laws simply legalize the poisoning of jury pools. As I said elsewhere, Sunshine laws are not written by defense attorneys.

 

[lin]

The effect is the same. Sunshine laws simply legalize the poisoning of jury pools. As I said elsewhere, Sunshine laws are not written by defense attorneys.

Can you prove this? LINK PLEASE to some authority showing that defense attorneys did not have a hand in writing the Sunshine Laws.

 

[coco puff]

That's a warning shot across the prosecutor's bow from an attorney who is extremly capable at defending her position when it comes to forensic evidence. Defense attorneys who have the goods enjoy taking such pre-trial cannon shots.

So what are the capable attorneys going to say to the jury? We KNOW KC didn't do it but let focus on how the duct tape was wrapped around her head.....??? How does this make her any more or less guilty of the crime? If she didn't do it, why even go there? We know SOMEONE did it, and if it wasn't her, it doesn't matter how the duct tape was or was not attached to Caylee's remains. Now if they are arguing that KC DID it but it was an accident then of course the duct tapes matters in a huge way.

 

[marspiter]

In regards to Caylee taking off the tape. Once again we don't have evidence either way that Caylee was restrained. I personally think those other pieces of tape could have been used to seal the plastic trash bags, or tie Caylee up. Like I said no evidence either way based on the knowledge we currently have.

For arguments sake we'll say Caylee's hands weren't bound. Casey could have still held her down and applied the duct tape. It wouldn't be that hard to hold down a 2 year old child even at Casey's size. Once the duct tape was applied it would have been very difficult for Caylee to remove the tape. Keep in mind she is two years old. She is panicked and scared. Also with that tape it's going to hurt and hurt badly. In some cases of child abuse when parents have used duct tape to keep a child quite the removal of that tape has removed skin. Not only that but the tape was also attached to her hair.

I simply do not think a distraught and panicked 2 year old would be able to remove the tape. Now lets through in the entomology evidence (my opinion here). I have a feeling that the evidence is going to show a high likely hood that Caylee died in the car.

Now Caylee is panicked and scared which means her body is using more oxygen. She has duct tape over her face further restricting her oxygen. That coupled with being in a dark car trunk which would help to hinder her movements in my opinion. Lastly toss in the scorching Florida sun.

That really doesn't give Caylee a two year old much time to remove the tape before she becomes disoriented and passes away. Kinda like how a person suffering from hypothermia doesn't realize that even though their keys are locked in their car they could break the window to get in, get warm, and get help.

Here on the Smokey Mountain trail we had a woman get caught in a rain storm in which it was very cold. Her cell phone and keys were inside her car and she died from exposure about 3ft from the vehicle. There was evidence she tried to get in but do to her impaired thinking and panic she never thought to grab the rock sitting by the car to break the window.

So to me Caylee not taking off the tape doesn't prove the tape was placed after death and could have still been placed on a live Caylee even if she wasn't restrained.

 

[ZsaZsa]

The effect is the same. Sunshine laws simply legalize the poisoning of jury pools. As I said elsewhere, Sunshine laws are not written by defense attorneys.

Thank God they are not. We would have no access to the real facts, only a sanitized version as would fit their needs. The public, and by extension, Juries are not permitted to see enough information in other states. I say Bravo for Florida.
Let all the information be scrutinized. If it's the truth it will withstand close examination.

 

[lin]

See page 3 of this pdf file about Florida's Sunshine laws which shows that the beginning of the Sunshine laws was in 1909 in the Florida legislature. Unfortunately, the records for members of the legislature in 1909 are not readily found, at least by me but I'll be willing to bet the membership included many (former) defense attorneys.

 

[reeseeva]

That's a warning shot across the prosecutor's bow from an attorney who is extremly capable at defending her position when it comes to forensic evidence. Defense attorneys who have the goods enjoy taking such pre-trial cannon shots.

BBM.
I've observed LKB during the Spector trial:sick: I believe her passion for forensics relates only to her fame, glory and money, with humanity aside.

And defense attorneys who have absolutely nothing, such as Geragos defending Scott Peterson, bluster and make promises they can't keep in vain attempts to sway the public, just like LKB is doing. We've all read the docs. She's speaking only to those who haven't and won't and hoping to sway public opinion. Wudge, Is this the same as the Sunshine Laws poising the potential jury pool?

The prosecutors weren't feeling a warning shot across their bow -- they were laughing themselves silly at the desperation of the defense.

 

[lin]

Thank God they are not. We would have no access to the real facts, only a sanitized version as would fit their needs. The public, and by extension, Juries are not permitted to see enough information in other states. I say Bravo for Florida.
Let all the information be scrutinized. If it's the truth it will withstand close examination.

Mark Eiglarsch (sp?) was on HLN and opined that he is in favor of the Sunshine laws.

 

[reeseeva]

Mark Eiglarsch (sp?) was on HLN and opined that he is in favor of the Sunshine laws.

A former Prosecutor, now a Defense Attorney, I believe?

 

[ZsaZsa]

I predict KC will too.

I mean, just consider the conflicting stories being told by the defense now already, trying to explain this part of the evidence this way; using a different scenario for another piece of evidence; etc. It won't fly with a jury. One cohesive theory of the case is impossible for them.

SODDI -- Why no report? What were the circumstances that caused Caylee to be removed from KC's sole care and custody? Why was Caylee in KC's trunk? And so on.

Accident -- Where's the evidence to show an accident? (Please testify, KC, please testify -- for the amusement value of the cross exam!) Why the cover up? How does duct tape play into an accidental death??? And so on.

Mental Defect -- No history of mental illness. Cover up shows she knew it was wrong, ergo, no insanity defense.

I mean, we could go on all day about what's wrong with these theories and did for several days in the SODDI threads and accident threads. The jurors will make reasonable inferences based on the evidence as they are required to do and imo will come to the conclusion that Caylee's murder was committed by KC and was legally premeditated.

Having just written the above, it occurs to me that maybe some are defining "premeditation" by a standard dictionary rather than in a legal sense. When considering premeditation, please be sure to use the legal defintion(s) shown on pages 1-2 of this thread.

Report? Evidence? Please, they don't concern themselves with such minutiae when there are cameras around.
They have to make periodic appearances to earn their pay- oh, that's right they are doing this 'free' aren't they? Of course they ordinarily couldn't afford to buy advertising on CBS or any other station to publicize their books, so they will spout any nonsense in order to get booked on these 'investigative journalism' shows. Controversy means ratings,means $$$

 

[marspiter]

The effect is the same. Sunshine laws simply legalize the poisoning of jury pools. As I said elsewhere, Sunshine laws are not written by defense attorneys.

Regardless, it is the Florida law created by their lawmakers (I would gather some of them could be Defense attorneys given the amount of lawyers also involved in politics), and voted on by the people of Florida. The DA's office is following that law and not committing any type of impropriety or "leaking" info to the public in an effort to poison the jury pool.

The option of having a gag order was in place, but the Defense (bold for emphasis) fought against this. Further more the DA's office has only released evidence via the laws of Florida.

Also the media doesn't release everything in the documents either. The only reason we here at WS have so much info is because of great people like Muzikman, and others. Thats why the info here is sometimes weeks (or longer) ahead of shows like Nancy Grace and others.

However once again this is OT and I'm sorry for going OT.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Regardless, it is the Florida law created by their lawmakers (I would gather some of them could be Defense attorneys given the amount of lawyers also involved in politics), and voted on by the people of Florida. The DA's office is following that law and not committing any type of impropriety or "leaking" info to the public in an effort to poison the jury pool.

The option of having a gag order was in place, but the Defense (bold for emphasis) fought against this. Further more the DA's office has only released evidence via the laws of Florida.

Also the media doesn't release everything in the documents either. The only reason we here at WS have so much info is because of great people like Muzikman, and others. Thats why the info here is sometimes weeks (or longer) ahead of shows like Nancy Grace and others.

However once again this is OT and I'm sorry for going OT.

Not being leaked as you say, also- if the information is the TRUTH where is the poison?

 

[JBean]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78590&highlight=sunshine