Premeditated?

[borndem]

Do we know for a fact that those phone records were never looked at? Is it true that BPD tried to get those records and was blocked by AH? Is it possible JR received outside advise about what and how to stage over the telephone that night? Would JR, faced with such an unexpected horrific situation as this, have dealt with on his own or would he have called people he knew he could trust to ask for advise?

JR was a CEO and used to making The Decision on projects, large expenditures, contracts, etc., etc., etc. Certainly he had those who reported to him and gave him facts & figures that influenced his decisions, but he made them ultimately & independently.

I think he made the plan, etc., from only his own thoughts, while PR was crying/pacing/hand-wringing, etc., using the scene that he saw. Control, control, control & secrecy were called for here. If he was involved at all -- which I certainly think he was -- he "wrote" the agenda, fashioned the RN, and the elder R's followed it, knowing they could call on the right people when they needed to do so. :twocents:

 

[Venom]

ST reports in his book that there were 2 Monday visits to the nurse in Dec '96. The Bonita papers also list that JB (according to teacher) was extra clingy to PR in Dec. '96.

Thanks. So that makes it likely that the abuse started sometime around December to me. Jmo

 

[tweezybird]

No, those words are highly suspicious and lead me to think her brain was thinking "how could a child do this to another child".

They bother me too.

 

[questfortrue]

Copied from post by questfortrue (bbm):


"Another child" -- ?? Hmmm, those two words just jarred me -- and maybe I'm just reaching (surely, Shirley, I've never done that before ), but WTH did she mean by "another child"? Perhaps meaning something like, from one child to another?? As in BR to JB? <smh> That's the way I read it, anyway. Bothersome. Was it another slip or tell? Was it on purpose -- to throw a dash of blame or doubt wrt BR?

Did those two words bother anyone else? Or should I get down from the ceiling?

--------------------------------------------------------------
ETA: And thanks to qft for the good & thoughtful post!
--------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you. I was hoping someone else would note the confusing trail of verbal bread crumbs leading to whodunit! What wasn’t evident to me was why. As you say, a slip or a tell? First thing JR comes up carrying JB and says to Rev. H, “I don’t think he meant to kill her, she was wrapped in a blanket.” Or “she was warm”. Then he announces that it was “an inside job”. Was he forgetting the story line, it was BR, no wait, it was an intruder. It made me wonder whether he had managed to call MB from the basement that morning and learned BR could not be mentioned or charged. He couldn’t very well say to his lawyer, well PR did it or I did it, so he came up with a BDI, innocent story line that JB and BR were horsing around and JB was critically injured. For all anyone knows now, it could well be true.

Then on CNN PR, who obviously is drugged, but not so out of it that she can’t also drop a “clue”, about how anyone could do this to another child. Of course, we already know about JR saying the killer needs forgiveness. . .etc. Still suggesting, imo, their son.

It just makes no sense to me that they would “insinuate” their son, and then switch over to the intruder. Were they afraid that someone might take them too serious and question BR further or even remove him from their home? The intruder idea also got a lot of traction with them after this, sending BR to school, and having a 911 hotline at school, as well as guards looking after him. Regardless, they got a “semi-validated” letter from AH which said something to the effect that BR was not a suspect, that BPD hadn’t developed any evidence linking BR to the crime and armed with that JR and PR went on their world-wide suing tour. moo

 

[borndem]

Would anyone really trust another person with that kind of secret?
I think it's highly plausible that he made calls, I just can't get over trusting another person with a secret that big.

bbm

I totally agree, Venom. First of all, I don't see JR being that trusting of anyone with much of anything. Certainly he would trust his atty & his MD with certain things due to the confidentiality protection, but I don't see him giving this secret to anyone.

He was a businessman -- he'd seen confidences broken in his business dealings, I'm sure -- maybe not in something he had to do with (or perhaps maybe so), but I'm sure he'd seen it with colleagues or people/companies he knew. I don't think he was a trusting-type guy at all.

He'd made it pretty far & pretty well on his own wits and decision-making -- why change now, especially when dealing with molestation (only known to him??) and murder.

 

[borndem]

Yeah, the Ramseys made some startling comments, particularly after Hunter gave them their get-out-of-jail-free card when he buried the Grand Jury indictments.

My favorite was when JR asked the pastor interviewing them on the Christian Broadcast Network, "What if we did kill her?"

That was a jaw-dropper.

The Ramseys got cocky after they knew for sure they got away with it. Their lack of understanding what actually innocent parents of child victims truly feel told on them. Often.

bbm

Owie Zowie, KoldKase! That's a new one on me, but not really a
surprise.... <smh>

.

 

[borndem]

Originally Posted by Tawny
No, those words are highly suspicious and lead me to think her brain was thinking "how could a child do this to another child".

They bother me too.

Now, imo, the question is, was that a true slip of the tongue by PR or did she say it to purposefully plant a little seed that BR may have been involved?

Just one more thing that we will never know...:banghead:

 

[DeeDee249]

JR's comment to his pastor reminds me of the title of OJ Simpson's book:
"If I Did It".

 

[gramcracker]

Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town/kindle location 4987

[Per reporter Jeff Shapiro] The next Sunday I attended church, and as I sat down, to my left, in the row right in front of me, were Patsy and John. Burke was sitting with the Stines, near me. I had to look away fast, not wanting to draw attention to myself. Patsy looked like she was in tears and scared. John was just calm. Burke was happy as a clam, hopping around with a friend.

As the Ramseys prayed, I couldn't take my eyes off them.

As always, about midway through the service, Hoverstock directed the congregation in private prayer. I'd always prayed for JonBenet.

Patsy looked as if she was groomed for prayer. Her posture was solid as a rock. Yet she trembled, and tears were coming from her eyes. Under her breath, I could see her mouthing the words, "Please, please."

[snipped]

John covered his eyes with both hands and would occasionally lift his hands as if he wanted to block the sun from his eyes. Then he'd go back to covering them with both hands.

When I returned from taking Communion, I passed the Ramseys and looked into Patsy's eyes. She was still saying, "Please, please."

[snipped]

Hoverstock then asked the congregation to take the Peace: "Everyone rejoice and greet one another." He walked down the aisles, hugging and kissing everyone. Row by row, he was greeting people, shaking hands and talking to them. When he got to Patsy he walked right by her, not saying a word.

[snipped]

A month later, I asked him about that moment. He insisted he hadn't seen her. Bull****! He saw her.

 

[Venom]

bbm

Owie Zowie, KoldKase! That's a new one on me, but not really a
surprise.... <smh>

.

I just have to say every time I scroll by this I giggle to myself over those pictures. Thanks bornden for the giggle.
*I mean no disrespect or anything like that, I know this is a serious matter that we're discussing.*

 

[borndem]

I just have to say every time I scroll by this I giggle to myself over those pictures. Thanks bornden for the giggle.
*I mean no disrespect or anything like that, I know this is a serious matter that we're discussing.*

bbm

Same here, Venom. I hesitated a little before I hit the "Submit Reply" key, but I thought we all needed a bit of a lift, as you said. Glad you got a little giggle or two.

And like you, my friend, I certainly meant no disrespect to any one involved in the investigating, the sadness, distress & mourning over that little girl, nor to any of us here who care enuff to offer what possibilities we might surmise in our reading, our thinking & our sharing on these threads.

And yes, we couldn't be dealing with a more serious matter than this real-life mystery that, as smart as many of us Sleuthers are, will never be solved -- unless there is a deathbed confession. And even if there were one, it too, I'm sure, would also be discussed and examined by many of us. <smh> We're all in little JonBenet's corner, so she is not alone, but I can't help but think she was very alone that night in the wine cellar.

 

[Scandigirl]

Thanks. So that makes it likely that the abuse started sometime around December to me. Jmo

Hi there! Hope you don't mind me joining in? Maybe also the abuse could have started happening any time earlier, but for some reason was escalating more out of control by December?

Does anyone know if JR was usually away during the week, travelling for business, and home much more at weekends? Could be wrong, but only a thought...

 

[Meara]

"their world-wide suing tour"


:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Scandigirl]

There was an interview where Patsy said something like do you think I wrote this note before or after I killed jonbenet? (She was speaking sarcastically).

I am going to find that part of the interview and post it here.

I am wondering if there is anyone here who thinks the note may have actually been written before JB was killed.

Also if there is anyone here who believes the murder was a planned thing (I'm not sure WHY it would have been a planned killing, but I'm just wondering if there's anyone who thinks that).

Hi pageantmom!

Hope you don't mind me joining your thread? I'm very new to posting on this forum, but been reading everyone's posts with interests for a while. I'm not as knowledgeable about the case as many people on here, and trying to catch up. I finally plucked up courage to post at last, over on the other thread- Did JR Tell Us The Plan?- because I stumbled across a theory of the case by accident, by someone called Kir Komrik. I posted the link to him on the other thread, if you fancy taking a look?

I don't by any means think that his theory is necessarily any more accurate than anyone else's, but wanted to introduce it to everyone here, as I didn't think many people were aware of it. It does raise some new and interesting aspects to consider... One of them concerns the issue of premeditation.

I know that the majority of people believe that the murder happened by accident, followed by a cover up. That may well be right, but I'm not sure, and have some suspicions. KK's theory mentions very interesting information about the existence of photos of the ransom note tablet, plus 2 blank pages, arranged on the Ramsey's iron staircase and found in the Ramsey's camera, which appeared to have been taken 24hrs before the 911 call was made, and indicate the possibility of foreknowledge, or premeditation.

This couldn't be proven by the police, but they had strong suspicions and tried to question both Patsy and John about it, without any conclusive success.

It's only an extra thing to look at, and I can't say it categorically proves anything, but is at least suspicious. Just wanted to mention it- hope you don't mind!

It's all of course just speculation.

 

[Scandigirl]

Here's the link to KK's file. It takes ages to read, is very heavy going, but very detailed.http://kirkomrik.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/jbrseedbykirkomrikv1-0.docx

 

[dazeerae]

Here's the link to KK's file. It takes ages to read, is very heavy going, but very detailed.http://kirkomrik.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/jbrseedbykirkomrikv1-0.docx

Thanks for posting the link. I'm reading bits at a time, & I'm fighting the urge to skip to the conclusion!

 

[Scandigirl]

Thanks for posting the link. I'm reading bits at a time, & I'm fighting the urge to skip to the conclusion!

Thanks for taking the time to read it, dazeerae! I know it's pretty long and detailed, and full of academic and legal speak, it's an interesting document. I'm not assuming it's necessarily any more accurate than any other theories, but I'm just intrigued to know what others make of the issues covered in it? At least it's some new material to debate!

 

[Venom]

Hi there! Hope you don't mind me joining in? Maybe also the abuse could have started happening any time earlier, but for some reason was escalating more out of control by December?

Does anyone know if JR was usually away during the week, travelling for business, and home much more at weekends? Could be wrong, but only a thought...

Hi, by all means join in wherever and welcome to the forum.

 

[dazeerae]

Thanks for taking the time to read it, dazeerae! I know it's pretty long and detailed, and full of academic and legal speak, it's an interesting document. I'm not assuming it's necessarily any more accurate than any other theories, but I'm just intrigued to know what others make of the issues covered in it? At least it's some new material to debate!

My concern is that Kir Komrick is possibly lying about who he is, and if he's lying about who he is, then what else could he be lying about in regards to knowledge of the JBR case. I have been torn as to whether to share this information, as I don't want to cause trouble for someone who is only trying to share a possible JBR scenario. However, I feel that it's important for readers to know there is something off about the person who calls himself Kir Komrik, AKA Cyrus Komrik.

Intrigued by KK's anecdotes of his wife, Sadie Ann Komrik, who he says has several personality disorders (primarily narcissism), I decided to do a little digging to find out more about her. What I found is that KK's details about his life & family are somewhat conflicting. He says he has a daughter Maya, who can also be found online. She refers to Kir as her brother. KK says that his son's mother is Sadie, but elsewhere online he says that his son's mother is Morgan Van Houten which he refers to as his "X." He also states that his mother's name is Sadie "Sabrina" Komrik; Sadie Komrik is the same name as his (x?)wife. He says that he and Sadie Ann have a daughter Alex and that both females are models. I can find nowhere else online where this name is corroborated...he only mentions the daughter Maya elsewhere online.

I have additional links & info, but this is the gist of it. My concern is that while KK may have some valid points about the JBR case, he is either lying about his personal life or he suffers from his own mental health issues. This is all my opinion gleaned from online research. Please let me know if I need to clarify.

 

[Anyhoo]

My concern is that Kir Komrick is possibly lying about who he is, and if he's lying about who he is, then what else could he be lying about in regards to knowledge of the JBR case. I have been torn as to whether to share this information, as I don't want to cause trouble for someone who is only trying to share a possible JBR scenario. However, I feel that it's important for readers to know there is something off about the person who calls himself Kir Komrik, AKA Cyrus Komrik.

Intrigued by KK's anecdotes of his wife, Sadie Ann Komrik, who he says has several personality disorders (primarily narcissism), I decided to do a little digging to find out more about her. What I found is that KK's details about his life & family are somewhat conflicting. He says he has a daughter Maya, who can also be found online. She refers to Kir as her brother. KK says that his son's mother is Sadie, but elsewhere online he says that his son's mother is Morgan Van Houten which he refers to as his "X." He also states that his mother's name is Sadie "Sabrina" Komrik; Sadie Komrik is the same name as his (x?)wife. He says that he and Sadie Ann have a daughter Alex and that both females are models. I can find nowhere else online where this name is corroborated...he only mentions the daughter Maya elsewhere online.

I have additional links & info, but this is the gist of it. My concern is that while KK may have some valid points about the JBR case, he is either lying about his personal life or he suffers from his own mental health issues. This is all my opinion gleaned from online research. Please let me know if I need to clarify.

If what he says is true, then it is not relevant who KK is. IMO we should focus on the message and not the messenger. Let the message stand or fall on its own, regardless of the messenger.