Premeditated?

[otg]

IIRC, it was a reporter that called McGuckins trying to get the receipt? I may be wrong though.

It was a "detective" with an agency he (James Rapp) called Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9950432#post9950432"]Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT) - Page 4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[DeeDee249]

One comment about PW's "matching" sweater. It was not an identical match of Patsy's. It was SIMILAR. Patsy had seen PW's fleece sweater/jacket and admired it, asked PW where she got it, and got one herself (at Marshall's). Patsy gave this info to LE during one of her interviews.
Patsy's sweater jacket was tested and found to be made of acrylic. I am not sure whether PW's jacket was ever tested (or even asked for) by LE.

 

[DeDee]

One comment about PW's "matching" sweater. It was not an identical match of Patsy's. It was SIMILAR. Patsy had seen PW's fleece sweater/jacket and admired it, asked PW where she got it, and got one herself (at Marshall's). Patsy gave this info to LE during one of her interviews.
Patsy's sweater jacket was tested and found to be made of acrylic. I am not sure whether PW's jacket was ever tested (or even asked for) by LE.

Patsy also told LE that she could not recall if she purchased it in the fall of 1995 or 1996. Patsy even told them that she may have worn PW's sweater during the White's party. Doesn't matter. The sweater/jacket Patsy wore during the murder was purposefully related directly to PW.


I understand your position, DeeDee, and respect it.

What I don't understand is that a 6yo was brutally strangled and some people think it was merely a cover-up.

imoo

 

[dazeerae]

I think what we have here was not an accidental death, but an UNINTENDED death. There was molestation that night, to be sure. There may or may not have been a scream (I believe there was). But there was certainly a head bash, and that put her instantly unconscious maybe even comatose. The head bash, IMO was meant to shut her up FAST or may have been struck in rage, but it was not done with the intention that her death would be the result. Every other action that night regarding JB proceeded from that event.
I do not believe it was premeditated by ANY member of the family.

DeeDee, this is what I believe as well. I have seen where a few people believe the strangulation came first. I figure this topic has been hashed out before by WS old-timers: I'm wondering if there was any evidence as to which came first, the head bash or the strangulation?

 

[Anyhoo]

DeeDee, this is what I believe as well. I have seen where a few people believe the strangulation came first. I figure this topic has been hashed out before by WS old-timers: I'm wondering if there was any evidence as to which came first, the head bash or the strangulation?

To me it would make more sense if the strangulation came first and was an accidental strangulation. Then the head bash would be staging. But if the other way around then the strangulation is not an accident but purposeful murder. To me that is a lot worse.

 

[Mama2JML]

Nothing accidental about it. She was tortured, THEN she was murdered.

 

[DeeDee249]

To me it would make more sense if the strangulation came first and was an accidental strangulation. Then the head bash would be staging. But if the other way around then the strangulation is not an accident but purposeful murder. To me that is a lot worse.

It is hard to imagine an "accidental" strangulation in this case. One reason is that the garrote itself did not actually function properly as a true garrote nor as a noose, but rather was simply tied around her throat with a fairly common knot, and then wound around a few times and pulled very tight. That "pull" had to be deliberate. If it had been a noose or some other knot that might have been tightened unintentionally then there is a possibility that it was accidental. That hole in her skull would have been hard to put there if she was lying down, IMO. The coroner did not go into this, as he placed BOTH methods as a cause of death "in association" with each other, but I presume a coroner can tell by the angle of the blow whether the victim was standing or lying down. If she was lying down, unless the perp was on his/her knees, there likely would not be enough force to make that hole.
We also know that the strangulation finally ended her life. There was just no reason to bash her after that. We also know her hear was still pumping when she was bashed- because there was subdural bleeding as well as some mild swelling. Swelling never occurs in a dead person.
While I cannot think of a single reason to bash her after she was strangled (she would not have been moving or struggling) I CAN think of some reasons to have bashed her first- to shut her up if she was screaming. Or in a rage assault.
Only 1 (possibly 2) forensic experts of all who have looked at this case feel the strangulation came first. Most feel the head blow came first.

 

[Scandigirl]

Might be completely wrong, but I wonder if someone meant to kill her and planned to strangle her (maybe tying in with buying the cord and duct tape beforehand?) I've never tried to strangle anyone, and can safely say I never will, but I can imagine that it might not be easy to do, even to a 6 year old girl.

Just trying to imagine attempting this myself (only strictly for the purpose of analysing this!), and as a 5ft 4ins petite female, I think I might struggle. Could it be that whoever was trying to strangle her was struggling with it as well, and that somehow during the process, she managed to let out a single piercing scream? Maybe this startled her attacker, and they immediately grabbed the nearest suitable object to use as a weapon, and bashed her quickly on the head to shut her up? This could possible explain the level of force in the blow, through a combination of panic, anger and determination?

I'm wondering, if something like this happened, what might it say about who her attacker may or may not have been? For example, would a grown man like John Ramsey, have met with such a struggle during the strangulation? Could this possible imply that it must have been a woman or child, either of whom would have less physical strength? Plus, to swing the weapon for the head bash underneath the low basement ceiling, they would be more likely to be smaller in height?

I know this could be way off the mark, and people don't agree on whether the strangulation or head bash happened first, but just my own thoughts and questions...?

 

[ZBob]

Might be completely wrong, but I wonder if someone meant to kill her and planned to strangle her (maybe tying in with buying the cord and duct tape beforehand?) I've never tried to strangle anyone, and can safely say I never will, but I can imagine that it might not be easy to do, even to a 6 year old girl.

Just trying to imagine attempting this myself (only strictly for the purpose of analysing this!), and as a 5ft 4ins petite female, I think I might struggle. Could it be that whoever was trying to strangle her was struggling with it as well, and that somehow during the process, she managed to let out a single piercing scream? Maybe this startled her attacker, and they immediately grabbed the nearest suitable object to use as a weapon, and bashed her quickly on the head to shut her up? This could possible explain the level of force in the blow, through a combination of panic, anger and determination?

I'm wondering, if something like this happened, what might it say about who her attacker may or may not have been? For example, would a grown man like John Ramsey, have met with such a struggle during the strangulation? Could this possible imply that it must have been a woman or child, either of whom would have less physical strength? Plus, to swing the weapon for the head bash underneath the low basement ceiling, they would be more likely to be smaller in height?

I know this could be way off the mark, and people don't agree on whether the strangulation or head bash happened first, but just my own thoughts and questions...?

I think this is plausible.

One thing that I have thought about is that it seems (based on medical/forensic discussion) that the limited bleeding in the brain is some kind of indication that the strangulation and death occurred relatively quickly after the head strike. I don't know anything about the duration or timing and flow of potential bleeding, but let's say it implies that death is in minutes versus in tens of minutes, quarter hours, or longer. I find a head strike related to sexual abuse or general frustration and anger with BR to be possible/likely. Assuming this happened without the garrote around her neck then I would think a decent amount of time might/would transpire before the strangulation given that someone has to get the paintbrush and rope, tie it up, put it on her, etc. Also, if the parents think her dead from the head strike and then later figure out she is not dead and decide the strangle, then certainly more than tens of minutes would pass.

Anyway, perhaps this might have some indication of the plausibility of what you describe. I think that WS member who understand the medical aspects better could offer thoughts on timing based on the autopsy evidence and facts. Hope this all makes sense.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I think someone tried to strangle her and she may have cried out, Or the rope got caught and that is when she was bashed in the head to make her quiet. And then they continued to strangle her. I have to wonder if the sexual assault on her happen while she was dying and not conscious. JMO

 

[Scandigirl]

I think this is plausible.

One thing that I have thought about is that it seems (based on medical/forensic discussion) that the limited bleeding in the brain is some kind of indication that the strangulation and death occurred relatively quickly after the head strike. I don't know anything about the duration or timing and flow of potential bleeding, but let's say it implies that death is in minutes versus in tens of minutes, quarter hours, or longer. I find a head strike related to sexual abuse or general frustration and anger with BR to be possible/likely. Assuming this happened without the garrote around her neck then I would think a decent amount of time might/would transpire before the strangulation given that someone has to get the paintbrush and rope, tie it up, put it on her, etc. Also, if the parents think her dead from the head strike and then later figure out she is not dead and decide the strangle, then certainly more than tens of minutes would pass.

Anyway, perhaps this might have some indication of the plausibility of what you describe. I think that WS member who understand the medical aspects better could offer thoughts on timing based on the autopsy evidence and facts. Hope this all makes sense.

Thanks for your thoughts, ZBob! It's not easy trying to come up with plausible explanations that would explain a head bash, strangulation and sexual assault, especially as there isn't an agreement about what order these definately occurred in!

The only possibilities (that I can think of, and make logical sense to me) involve the strangulation first, then head bash, and I'm still scratching my head about how and when the sexual assault might fit in! I agree that it would really help to hear from those with far more detailed medical/forensic and autopsy knowledge, as I have only some logic and gut instinct to go on- not very scientific!

One angle that might be intriguing, is to try to see if any of that information could help to indicate the perpetrator (or eliminate someone), in any way? This might not be possible, and I suppose if it was, it would have been done by now!

 

[Hexe]

I think someone tried to strangle her and she may have cried out, Or the rope got caught and that is when she was bashed in the head to make her quiet. And then they continued to strangle her. I have to wonder if the sexual assault on her happen while she was dying and not conscious. JMO

The furrows on JB's neck are very deep. Whoever strangled her used great amount of force, stopping the airflow (and the blood circulation between her heart and brain) completely. No way she was able to scream.

 

[Scandigirl]

The furrows on JB's neck are very deep. Whoever strangled her used great amount of force, stopping the airflow (and the blood circulation between her heart and brain) completely. No way she was able to scream.

Thanks for pointing this out- it seems that the head bash did actually come first. Just had another random thought, that's probably not all that helpful, but just thinking about the characterstics of the attack, and what that might mean, or indicate about the killer?

I go back and forth about whether it could have been John, Patsy, even Burke, and far fetched though it sounds, even someone else who was with Ramsey's in their home that night, but not an interlude who had broken in, but someone let in and out and covered up for?

Anyway, whoever it was... It seems to me that the head bash could mean either great rage, or panic or determination, or any combination of these, and that it's a pretty impersonal way to attack someone. It doesn't necessarily signify any intimacy or emotional attachment to the victim.

I've also read in numerous places, but can't remember the sources, that strangulation is usually a very personal choice of attack (manual strangulation), and usually indicated intense emotional involvement with the victim. But, if a rope or cord was used, that could be said to remove the personal, intimate element of the attack... So, was the attacker trying to lessen the emotional involvement, or was it just not there?

Just thinking about Linda Arndt's description of the odd way that she said John was holding JB's body when he found her- held away from him, so he couldn't see her face or have her body touching his... And then the description of Patsy doing the exact opposite, and flinging herself on top of JB's body, in a very intimate/personal way?

Not sure what I'm saying here, really, just thinking out loud?

Sorry to stray briefly off the topic of premeditation!

JMO

 

[Scandigirl]

Sorry for the above typos- I blame the iPad!

 

[Mama2JML]

IMO, the scientific basis for Wecht's analysis re: the COD is solid; strangulation prior to head blow.

Which MEs testified before the GJ?

 

[Scandigirl]

I don't know what anyone else thinks, but to me, the head bash was so severe that it couldn't have been an accident, and must have been intentional? It also seems that it was caused by someone striking her from above or behind, rather than her slamming into a surface or something?

So, if she was struck on the head first (not saying she was, but just theorizing), with such brutal force, her attacker must have realised that she would be either dead or nearly dead, and must have meant to kill her? So, why then switch to strangulation afterwards? If they meant to make sure they had "finished her off", wouldn't it just be easier to strike her on the head again, with equal force? Surely that would be easier and more logical than suddenly switching to strangulation...

Unless the cord/garrotte was purely added for staging... but then, how would that explain the deep furrows in her neck, which show that the attacker really did try to pull it tight into her neck and strangle her?

Sorry if this doesn't make any sense!

On the other hand, I can imagine a situation where perhaps strangulation was attempted, something went wrong/the attacker didn't succeed or got distracted and the head blow followed from panic/rage/frustration.

I don't have enough medical knowledge to argue which came first either way, so open minded, but just trying to look at what type of sequence of events might fit and make sense either way...

 

[Anyhoo]

Whichever came first, I think neither was an accident. If not an accident then this indicates premeditation. But if premeditated, then why decide to do it on the night before their upcoming vacations? It seems like that would be a most unlikely time to do it. To me that is a big argument against premeditation, unless it was for some reason important that she be killed on the specific day she was. Like a sacrifice.

 

[otg]

IMO, the scientific basis for Wecht's analysis re: the COD is solid; strangulation prior to head blow.

How about... strangulation prior to the body being able to respond fully to the head blow? See what I'm saying? The head blow could not have been dealt after death, or there would be hardly no response at all. I believe there was enough of a response (bleeding, edema, etc.) to show that the head blow had to have happened before she was strangled to death.

Which MEs testified before the GJ?

I think Dr. Meyer was the only one who actually testified in person, Mama. Dr. Henry Lee was consulted, but never testified (as I recall).

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The furrows on JB's neck are very deep. Whoever strangled her used great amount of force, stopping the airflow (and the blood circulation between her heart and brain) completely. No way she was able to scream.

Im talking about in the intial stages of the strangling.. Not when he had it complete. Maybe he was not sure she was dead? And then just whacked her. Or was mad? I don't know.. But I believe she was tied up and strangled before the Head bash.

I believe this was a deliberate plan to take her and it went very wrong.

 

[otg]

The deep ligature furrow was formed postmortem. It is not an indication of how tightly the ligature was pulled while she was being strangled. It forms as a result of the body's swelling, and the color is because of the ligature's effect on blood and other fluids under the surface of the skin.