Premeditation

[tweety933]

To think that Caylee's hands were tied, one would have to believe that LE and the D.A.'s office decided to withhold smoking gun evidence while leaking everything else. That's not how D.A.s play high-profile cases.

FWIW

(You might enjoy happenstance over serendipity.)

It could be that the evidence does not "prove" or "disprove" the binding of Caylee's hands or feet, thereby, only evidence being used in the trial will be released in the discovery (sunshine law). The only evidence that will be used at trial that hasn't been released yet, is either still being investigated (work product), or has no evidential value. The term leaking, I assume you mean the sunshine law, and are not disparaging the names of the county's representatives as to anything improper.

Also, can't they put a gag order on certain particular evidence, so that the jury pool is not unduly prejudiced before trial? For example if her hand bones were found near a piece of duct tape that was in a complete circle?

 

[MissJames]

Thank you scratchthatitch.

I do know what you mean. But I just don't think KC is that organized.

I'll tell you why I think she was that organized:
her photography
her outfits
her hair and make up
her scrapbooking
her texting
the way she faked e-mails from a fake job
the way she faked she had a job.

 

[Wudge]

It could be that the evidence does not "prove" or "disprove" the binding of Caylee's hands or feet, thereby, only evidence being used in the trial will be released in the discovery (sunshine law). The only evidence that will be used at trial that hasn't been released yet, is either still being investigated (work product), or has no evidential value. The term leaking, I assume you mean the sunshine law, and are not disparaging the names of the county's representatives as to anything improper.

Also, can't they put a gag order on certain particular evidence, so that the jury pool is not unduly prejudiced before trial? For example if her hand bones were found near a piece of duct tape that was in a complete circle?

That sounds like a gag order that would allow only certain evidence to be secretly leaked. (chuckle)

As regards a prejudiced jury pool: where is the jury pool that has not been unduly prejudiced?

 

[MissJames]

To think that Caylee's hands were tied, one would have to believe that LE and the D.A.'s office decided to withhold smoking gun evidence while leaking everything else. That's not how D.A.s play high-profile cases.

FWIW

(You might enjoy happenstance over serendipity.)

With all due respect,nothing has been LEAKED by the SA,but released under the FL Sunshine Laws.

 

[MissJames]

Swimming pool water that continued to leak out around the edges of the tape.

No evidence of that.One would have to IMAGINE and you've already said that's not evidence.

 

[Brini]

That sounds like a gag order that would allow only certain evidence to be secretly leaked. (chuckle)

As regards a prejudiced jury pool: where is the jury pool that has not been unduly prejudiced?

Leaked in thousand page increments?

Pretty hard to do that secretly, don't you think?

There are all but trumpet fanfares, with every discovery release.

Like it or not, it's the law of the state of FL. The prosecutors did not force the law on the people. The people voted it in.

Good thing to think about, when one contemplates committing a felony.

BTW-- That knife cuts both ways. Evidence of innocence, or flaws in critical evidence is also quickly revealed.. when present.

And, the defense discovery (if they ever get around to presenting it) can be released to reveal the exonerating evidence. Which JB has claimed that they have.

And, let's not forget that it was JB who refused the issuing of a gag order.

 

[Wudge]

With all due respect,nothing has been LEAKED by the SA,but released under the FL Sunshine Laws.

Is leaking illegal?

 

[MissJames]

You asked for a scenario, and I gave you leaking swimming pool water.

The scenario has Caylee dead from drowning and swimming pool water leaking out of her mouth, so a piece of duct tape was used to stop the flow. However, it continued to leak from around the edges of the duct tape, so more tape was used until the leaking stopped.

KC said she left Caylee with a nanny and has stuck by that.She has never mentioned an accident.So again,this is all just using your imagination,which you,yourself is not evidence.At this point I doubt there is any evidence

that would show an accidental drowning.Again,you have said imagining is not eveidence,so how could the jury even go there?​

 

[MissJames]

Is leaking illegal?

What's your point? I never said it was illegal,only that what has come out was done under FL law. What leaks are you referring to?

 

[Brini]

It could be that the evidence does not "prove" or "disprove" the binding of Caylee's hands or feet, thereby, only evidence being used in the trial will be released in the discovery (sunshine law). The only evidence that will be used at trial that hasn't been released yet, is either still being investigated (work product), or has no evidential value. The term leaking, I assume you mean the sunshine law, and are not disparaging the names of the county's representatives as to anything improper.

Also, can't they put a gag order on certain particular evidence, so that the jury pool is not unduly prejudiced before trial? For example if her hand bones were found near a piece of duct tape that was in a complete circle?

It would be nearly impossible to prove or disprove binding, in the absence of soft tissue.

 

[Brini]

Is leaking illegal?

By whom, specifically, and with what evidence?

 

[Wudge]

KC said she left Caylee with a nanny and has stuck by that.She has never mentioned an accident.So again,this is all just using your imagination,which you,yourself is not evidence.At this point I doubt there is any evidence

that would show an accidental drowning.Again,you have said imagining is not eveidence,so how could the jury even go there?​

Correct. I was asked a question that necessitated the use of my imagination or the use of maybe or the use of perhaps or the use of suspicion or the use of assumption or the use of speculation or the use of possible or the use of tea leaves or the use of tarot cards, etc,. all of which are equally worthless as evidence.

(I invite you to similarly evaluate all such legally useless posts.)​

 

[Wudge]

What's your point? I never said it was illegal,only that what has come out was done under FL law. What leaks are you referring to?

You posted: "With all due respect,nothing has been LEAKED by the SA,but released under the FL Sunshine Laws."

The implication is that there would be a problem (of some sort) if alleged evidence was 'leaked' but no problem exists if the same information were 'released' under Florida's Sunshine law.

 

[Rlaub44]

That sounds like a gag order that would allow only certain evidence to be secretly leaked. (chuckle)

As regards a prejudiced jury pool: where is the jury pool that has not been unduly prejudiced?

BBM

That's a good question; probably someplace that hasn't seen JB on Geraldo or LKL, as well as BC on the morning shows.

Just wanted to point out that the public nature of this case occurs due to more than just Sunshine Law considerations.

 

[believe09]

I agree.

1. I have a hard time believing now that the duct tape was to stage a kidnapping, not 3 pieces,

2. I have a hard time believing now that it was to deal with decomp fluids, the whole body was decomping and was triple bagged so why duct tape?

3. I choose to believe that this was part of the murder, maybe a rage killing out of pure spite and jealousy.

I don't know whether Caylee was conscious or drugged when this was done, KC wanted a soft easy kill but it was part of the act.

I just hope and pray that Caylee was drugged and she passed peacefully not knowing.

This deserved more than a thanks in agreement. ITA, It was the method of death or she wanted to obliterate her child's face. JMO.

To suffocate her child would have been quite unforgivably evil. I think she is lucky that Caylee was not found sooner, and that her tissue might have told the story had she been located.

O/T in a way-the expression on Casey's face while she was being photographed for her tattoo was pretty chilling. In a stop a clock kind of way.

 

[Wudge]

BBM

That's a good question; probably someplace that hasn't seen JB on Geraldo or LKL, as well as BC on the morning shows.

Just wanted to point out that the public nature of this case occurs due to more than just Sunshine Law considerations.

I agree. The prejudicing of jury pools in high-profile cases is not a problem that's unique to Florida cases. Rather, it's a nationwide problem that I believe has substantially grown with the birth of the internet.

Moreover, I also believe this (a prejudiced jury) explains why so many high-profile cases that go to trial end-up with a wrongful conviction.

 

[Bittiness39]

The thing I most cringe to think about is KC applying the duct tape to a conscious, non-drugged Caylee's mouth and nostrils and watching while she struggled in a panic to breathe and finally sucumbed to death. If the SA's theory is that the duct tape was placed on the nostrils and mouth to cause death and they have some other evidence to prove out that theory = premeditation.

I am not concerned about KC being wrongly convicted by a prejudiced jury. People do have a right to a bench trial as well. In high profile cases like this one...I have seen only two times recently where I believe the jury/SA's office dropped the ball...and that was in the OJ Simpson criminal trial and the first Phil Spector trial.

I do believe that humans make mistakes but most jury pools take death penalty cases rather seriously. They weigh the evidence deliberately...if there is room for reasonable doubt they will take it. I realize this is not true of every single jury....juror...but I feel confident in the system.

The real reason the defense is so shady and moves in a different direction with every document dump is because the facts and mountain of shear evidence is not favorable to their client. It is beyond darning.

They have stuck to and maintained that KC is not only innocent but SODDI. I say to the Defense...your best option was to say that it was an accident. But since neither their client nor the Defense seems inclined to go in that direction...they should have tried to plea her out when they still had a card to play...Caylee's remains before they were found.

If the Walmart story can be proven true with evidence, it makes it even less likely that Caylee drowned in the pool because there was a very very small window for that to happen. I realize that people swim in their pools during thunderstorms (though I don't think that is advisable) but there was a fairly serious whopper of a storm that day in the A's zip code.

My personal belief is that KC killed Caylee in a fit of rage.

Having said that...until I get to see all of the evidence (stuff we haven't seen yet) my mind will try to remain open to all theories including accidental drowning. I don't believe at all that is the case. I also don't believe that this particular SA's office would go for the DP (especially when the medical examiner said homicide by undetermined means) without more to cooberate this. JMO. The jury could easily find Reasonable Doubt (ie accidental death...frantic coverup) without some more definitive evidence.

Having said that...even if there were coffin flies in the car (or evidence that they were)...even with a stain that appears to be curled up in fetal position...her defenders/supporters will STILL find a way to defend her.

JMO. They could have a video of KC killing Caylee and there would still be supporters/defenders. Which blows my mind...but also explains a lot about how far down the rabbit hole America has fallen in terms of personal responsibility and truth and justice.

 

[sharpar]

How about we wait for trial and see all the evidence before we set her free and make
her rich with appearances and book deals .

 

[Horace Finklestein]

JMO. They could have a video of KC killing Caylee and there would still be supporters/defenders. Which blows my mind...but also explains a lot about how far down the rabbit hole America has fallen in terms of personal responsibility and truth and justice.[/QUOTE]

That's what I've thought too. I really can't see how we have the Son of Sam law but that it doesn't apply to the attorneys (on either side). It is just so crass and classless to see people flying in from all around the country strictly to cash in on a tragedy.

 

[Wudge]

The thing I most cringe to think about is KC applying the duct tape to a conscious, non-drugged Caylee's mouth and nostrils and watching while she struggled in a panic to breathe and finally sucumbed to death. If the SA's theory is that the duct tape was placed on the nostrils and mouth to cause death and they have some other evidence to prove out that theory = premeditation.

I am not concerned about KC being wrongly convicted by a prejudiced jury. People do have a right to a bench trial as well. In high profile cases like this one...I have seen only two times recently where I believe the jury/SA's office dropped the ball...and that was in the OJ Simpson criminal trial and the first Phil Spector trial.

I do believe that humans make mistakes but most jury pools take death penalty cases rather seriously. They weigh the evidence deliberately...if there is room for reasonable doubt they will take it. I realize this is not true of every single jury....juror...but I feel confident in the system.

The real reason the defense is so shady and moves in a different direction with every document dump is because the facts and mountain of shear evidence is not favorable to their client. It is beyond darning.

They have stuck to and maintained that KC is not only innocent but SODDI. I say to the Defense...your best option was to say that it was an accident. But since neither their client nor the Defense seems inclined to go in that direction...they should have tried to plea her out when they still had a card to play...Caylee's remains before they were found.

If the Walmart story can be proven true with evidence, it makes it even less likely that Caylee drowned in the pool because there was a very very small window for that to happen. I realize that people swim in their pools during thunderstorms (though I don't think that is advisable) but there was a fairly serious whopper of a storm that day in the A's zip code.

My personal belief is that KC killed Caylee in a fit of rage.

Having said that...until I get to see all of the evidence (stuff we haven't seen yet) my mind will try to remain open to all theories including accidental drowning. I don't believe at all that is the case. I also don't believe that this particular SA's office would go for the DP (especially when the medical examiner said homicide by undetermined means) without more to cooberate this. JMO. The jury could easily find Reasonable Doubt (ie accidental death...frantic coverup) without some more definitive evidence.

Having said that...even if there were coffin flies in the car (or evidence that they were)...even with a stain that appears to be curled up in fetal position...her defenders/supporters will STILL find a way to defend her.

JMO. They could have a video of KC killing Caylee and there would still be supporters/defenders. Which blows my mind...but also explains a lot about how far down the rabbit hole America has fallen in terms of personal responsibility and truth and justice.

I too would strongly examine the bench trial option. If an examination of the trial Judge's prior rulings in other cases pointed to their being objective versus being but an extension of the D.A.s office, I would ask the Judge to read a finding of facts into the trial record before reading the verdict. Though if the trial Judge were objective, I doubt that prosecutors would agree to a bench trial.

(Why would they want to waste a well poisoned jury?)