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Manorville is a dark, desolate, eery place. My mother would make me take all THREE of my female German Rotties WITH me to my friends house, I'd have to walk there with the dogs then tie them up outside at my friends house, and later make the journey back home. My mom had the right idea though, just keep my daughter with a pack of attack dogs.

Regardless, my point is, it is so dark, and houses spaced so far apart that anything can happen and no one would know. My friend only lived 4 houses away, but 4 houses in Manroville is equivilent to just about a mile or so.... so you can imagine how no one would see or her something bad happen.
 
I can't think of any reason for someone to call the family of a prostitute with a big tale that she's in his rehab. The only reason would be that he didn't want cops snooping around after Shannon called 911 saying someone was after her and neighbors seeing the hysterics. He wasn't even the one who had hired her in the first place, so there must be another reason he didn't want cops in that particular area doing a search, at least for awhile. When they did search they found 11 bodies.
 
Manorville is a dark, desolate, eery place. My mother would make me take all THREE of my female German Rotties WITH me to my friends house, I'd have to walk there with the dogs then tie them up outside at my friends house, and later make the journey back home. My mom had the right idea though, just keep my daughter with a pack of attack dogs.

Regardless, my point is, it is so dark, and houses spaced so far apart that anything can happen and no one would know. My friend only lived 4 houses away, but 4 houses in Manroville is equivilent to just about a mile or so.... so you can imagine how no one would see or her something bad happen.

Thanks for the description. However, it makes me wonder, how a killer then come to the idea to stage a torso on a pile of wood and can be sure, it's found relative soon. In other words, how did he know, that was the local dog walk path? Only a local would know, and maybe only a local with dog(s).
 
I can't think of any reason for someone to call the family of a prostitute with a big tale that she's in his rehab. The only reason would be that he didn't want cops snooping around after Shannon called 911 saying someone was after her and neighbors seeing the hysterics. He wasn't even the one who had hired her in the first place, so there must be another reason he didn't want cops in that particular area doing a search, at least for awhile. When they did search they found 11 bodies.

If we stop for a moment the 20/20 hindsight, things would make sense in the time, nobody, including him, knew, SG was dead. Only today, from the hindsight, with the knowledge, of today (bodies found, SG found), it appears as if this was an idiotic idea, but hey, he came through with it, till the GB4 were found and if the GB4 wouldn't have been found, he would be still good with the whole thing. So, a killer would have known, it fires back, because he would have known, there are bodies to find in the first place. A panicking guy, drawn into something minor (compared to murder) would try to find a story that lets appear him clean, not knowing, the sh** would hit the fan because someone had parked some bodies a mile away.
 
I could easily imagine the LISK in North LI, about 30-45 minutes from Manhattan and about 1 hour to Gilgo if I see this right. However, what I can't imagine is an SK dropping bodies so near to the place where he lives if he would be an OB resident. There are guys who keep the bodies in and around their hourse (for example Franklin or Sowell) and those who transport the bodies. But then they transport them away, not just a mile or two out of their backyard.

idk
Off the top of my head I can recall several serial killers that kept the bodies at home.
Anthony Sowell
John Wayne Gacy
Gary Michael Heidnik (who was caught before all were murdered)
Charles Ng
Fred West/Rosemary West
Dahmer

possibly this was his backyard in their world?
 
idk
Off the top of my head I can recall several serial killers that kept the bodies at home.
Anthony Sowell
John Wayne Gacy
Gary Michael Heidnik (who was caught before all were murdered)
Charles Ng
Fred West/Rosemary West
Dahmer

possibly this was his backyard in their world?

AT home, yes ... but how many do you know, who didn't dismember their victims and just drove them a mile or two away. Either they keep them at home or they drive them off far away. Transporting the body serves basically the forensic counter measure or gathering them in a trophy garden.
 
Thanks for the description. However, it makes me wonder, how a killer then come to the idea to stage a torso on a pile of wood and can be sure, it's found relative soon. In other words, how did he know, that was the local dog walk path? Only a local would know, and maybe only a local with dog(s).

I'm not totally sure what you mean, but just because Manorville is dark and quiet, doesn't mean there aren't things like signs and such that would let you know where a trail might be, etc etc. I know as a local from that crappy *advertiser censored* town, it took me and friends a long while to discover places in the woods that not everyone knew about. I lived there from the time I was 16 till I was 25. I saw a lot of crazy things happen... They have a bar, as in a Pub, that is literally 10 feet from the train tracks.... the actual tracks run THROUGH the parking lot.... I saw a man come out of the bar and had toooo much to drink, and got hit by the train. The bar was about 1 mile from my home....

My neighbor.... literally my next door neighbor, came outside one day and chased my friends and I up the road on foot swinging a tennis racket at us, trying to HURT us for being too loud infront of HIS house at mid-day.... We were like 19.... we were bothering anyone, just girls having fun... Maybe we were loud, but to chase kids down trying to hit them with a tennis racket is foul.... a few years later..... the man hacked his wife to death with a machette. Dormer came out, set up shop outside my house and starting having conferences and news reports in my front yard... Saddest thing I have ever seen. Watching the kids screaming BC they found Mom chopped to pieces? Sickening...

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.politics/2008-01/msg03533.html

If you don't like links just google man machette wife manorville.

My point is the place is too quiet, it's set up weird, and it's dangerous. I do not like Manorville.
 
I'm not totally sure what you mean, but just because Manorville is dark and quiet, doesn't mean there aren't things like signs and such that would let you know where a trail might be, etc etc. I know as a local from that crappy *advertiser censored* town, it took me and friends a long while to discover places in the woods that not everyone knew about. I lived there from the time I was 16 till I was 25. I saw a lot of crazy things happen... They have a bar, as in a Pub, that is literally 10 feet from the train tracks.... the actual tracks run THROUGH the parking lot.... I saw a man come out of the bar and had toooo much to drink, and got hit by the train. The bar was about 1 mile from my home....

My neighbor.... literally my next door neighbor, came outside one day and chased my friends and I up the road on foot swinging a tennis racket at us, trying to HURT us for being too loud infront of HIS house at mid-day.... We were like 19.... we were bothering anyone, just girls having fun... Maybe we were loud, but to chase kids down trying to hit them with a tennis racket is foul.... a few years later..... the man hacked his wife to death with a machette. Dormer came out, set up shop outside my house and starting having conferences and news reports in my front yard... Saddest thing I have ever seen. Watching the kids screaming BC they found Mom chopped to pieces? Sickening...

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.politics/2008-01/msg03533.html

If you don't like links just google man machette wife manorville.

My point is the place is too quiet, it's set up weird, and it's dangerous. I do not like Manorville.

Sounds like a crazy palce. However, I've never seen anywhere, in no dark and no bright place a sign like "Here are the locasl walking their dogs". The killer set Jessica Taylor's torso on a pile of wood. That is staging and indicates, he wanted the torso found. If someone places something to be found, he does it, where he KNOWS, someone would come by.
 
I am not completely aware of how Jessica was found.... I was young when they originally found her. I myself am unaware of any dog walking trails, for the simple fact that in the summer time we went NO WHERE near the woods for the simple fact that the deer tick infestations were ridiculous. I really don't know how ANYONE can live out there and not wind up with Lymes. I never found a reason to bring my dogs to a dog trail, as the streets and sidewalks were so quite, there was no reason not to take them for a walk along your road, and most backyards in Manorville are at least a half an acre. Plenty for a pup to have a good time in.
What I do know, is that some of the more prominent trails have a huge yellow single swing arm gate in front of them to keep Jeeps and stuff out during hunting season. And yes, they hunt out there like crazy. Many times my parents had to call 911 because hunters were in the woods in front of my house trying to shoot a deer. It's really a creepy town... between dodging trains, machette slinging psychos and stray bullets i suppose I am lucky to have made it out of that ghost town alive huh?!?!?
 
I'm not totally sure what you mean, but just because Manorville is dark and quiet, doesn't mean there aren't things like signs and such that would let you know where a trail might be, etc etc. I know as a local from that crappy *advertiser censored* town, it took me and friends a long while to discover places in the woods that not everyone knew about. I lived there from the time I was 16 till I was 25. I saw a lot of crazy things happen... They have a bar, as in a Pub, that is literally 10 feet from the train tracks.... the actual tracks run THROUGH the parking lot.... I saw a man come out of the bar and had toooo much to drink, and got hit by the train. The bar was about 1 mile from my home....

My neighbor.... literally my next door neighbor, came outside one day and chased my friends and I up the road on foot swinging a tennis racket at us, trying to HURT us for being too loud infront of HIS house at mid-day.... We were like 19.... we were bothering anyone, just girls having fun... Maybe we were loud, but to chase kids down trying to hit them with a tennis racket is foul.... a few years later..... the man hacked his wife to death with a machette. Dormer came out, set up shop outside my house and starting having conferences and news reports in my front yard... Saddest thing I have ever seen. Watching the kids screaming BC they found Mom chopped to pieces? Sickening...

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.politics/2008-01/msg03533.html

If you don't like links just google man machette wife manorville.

My point is the place is too quiet, it's set up weird, and it's dangerous. I do not like Manorville.

Sounds like a real nice town.
 
AT home, yes ... but how many do you know, who didn't dismember their victims and just drove them a mile or two away. Either they keep them at home or they drive them off far away. Transporting the body serves basically the forensic counter measure or gathering them in a trophy garden.


What is the perp thinks of that area of LI as His? Then, the bodies would be at His Home?
 
I can't get the last paragraph of the S.T.A.L.K., Inc. profile of the perp out of my head. Particularly three sentences. Here's what I am wondering:

1. “That reality is that he's nothing but a fragile looser who cannot take the slightest of criticisms.”

Question: I have a strong feeling that LE knows who the perp is. Because of this, I was wondering If the word “loser” was Intentionally misspelled as “looser” because the perp has lost a lot of weight due to addiction issues and/or is attempting to change his appearance and LE is aware of this weight loss? Could the word “looser” be a reference to weight loss and the fact that the perp's clothes are currently fitting him “looser”?


2. “At his core, he feels so much less than others, that he has to escape this reality and focus his mind on his stimulating murderous fantasies (which he will eventually act out on).”

Question: Could the phrase “has to escape this reality” be a reference to the perp using and abusing drugs and/or alcohol?


3. “He is just like the heroine addict that is coming down from his last high, who can't face his demons, so he fantasizes on procuring his next fix.”

Question: Is the word “heroine” also intentionally misspelled because at least one possible victim (Shannan Gilbert) has been cast in the role of “heroine” by the media? Has the perp cast Shannan Gilbert, or other victims in the role(s) of heroine(s) in his distorted mind also? Does the perp talk about Shannan and/or the other victims in heroic terms?

Could the word “heroine”, although misspelled, also be a reference to the perp's drug of choice?


S.T.A.L.K., INC.
Long Island, NY Serial Killer (Partial Profile)
http://stalkinc.com/index.html
 
Hi,

you caught me a little bit flat-footed here, since I have not much ideas about duck hunting. Didn't know for example, they use burlap to make blinds. However, I know my serial killers.
Basically, there are three different kinds of SKs out there, who dismember the bodies:

a.) as forensic counter-measure to prevent identification. This behavior is in fact relative common in mid- to low-organized sexual predator types. Berdella, partially Dahmer or also Rifkin (since we are at Long Island again) used it. Typically, those SKs dispose the bigger part of the body, often the whole shebang in the normal trash or spread them over a wide areas in places that are not so easy found. However, often they also keep a part for some time, either boiled down skulls (like Dahmer did) or by burying heads in their garden (like Berdella did). An SK, who uses dismembering as countermeasure has a good chance to become sloppy over time, after he got away with it several times and thus "changes" to methods with less effort. Rifkin is a good example for that. However, it's not really "evolving", it's just getting sloppy in the same way other SKs go sloppy when their spiral down beginns (compare Bundy for that).

b.) as souvenirs. Some keep body parts as souvenirs, mostly heads/skulls. While they get rid of the bigger part of the body, they keep the part that intrigues them. Again, Jeffrey Dahmer is an example, he kept some skulls to build the infamous altar. Since, for most of the body, this is only about forensic counter-measure and body disposal, there is always a possibility, that kind changes something in the disposal method or gets sloppy. That would mean, instead of body parts, one would suddenly for example find beheaded bodies.

c.) The Keepers. This is the rarest kind and I'm not sure, whether it's not even the rarest kind of all SK types. In this case, dismemberment doesn't serve as forensic counter-measure or means to dispose of bodies but is part of ritual and thereby of signature. Typical warning signs are
- torso or head staging in areas, the killer had to know they were found soon
- body parts of the same victim popping up in distant places over years
- body parts popping up when another SK makes headlines
It's important to understand, that this kind of SK doesn't dismember bodies to prevent identification. They do it because it's what they do, part of their fantasy that forms the signature. Thus, in a way, and especially in connection with the body part staging, those killers are much more similar to a Zodiac than a Jeffrey Dahmer. It's about attention and making statements. And because it's not about disposal (if they can, they keep as many body parts as possible in freezers, mummified or embalmed as possible and it's hard for them to put them out there to be found), they will NOT change this part of their signature unless they begin to spiral down.

Manorville is by all signs a Keeper-type. Jessica Taylor's torso was staged on top of a pile of wood along a path known by dog walkers. Her Hands and forearms, even her head, popped up not only years later but also only after another killer in the same area made headlines. Same with the Jane Dow. So, I fon't think, Manorville would evolve in a regular strangler and suddenly start to drop whole bodies somewhere. There wouldn't be any fun in it for him at all.
Now, that is my opinion and I don't claim to be always right (even I had a pretty good quota over the last few cases). So lets speculate a little about other reasons:

- A lot of SKs start with a victim that is from their social vicinity.
That is the reason, why the early victims are often key to blow the case open. So, theoretically, if there was some connection to the early victim, the killer would have seen a need for more effective counter-measures.

- Extreme sadists can in rare cases develop a taste for peri-mortem dismembering. Since the parts found were alreay years old, no ME would find tourniquet impressions anymore. So, theoretically, that's a possibility. However, a psychopath/sadist has a tendency to go at some point down the spiral and when he enters this phase, his killings become less elaborate, the signature disappears and it's all about primal instincts. So he would maybe change to less elaborate methods (but then, the kill/time quota for Gilgo is too slow for a psychopath in spiral down phase)

- If there are only a few victims dismembered, then a few burnt (for example), then a few painted green (only example to make it plakative) and whatever else, it could be a beginner still searching for himself. The urge to kill is already fully blown, but he is still experimenting to figure out, which method is the most "him".

- another possibility is, he is a dismemberer, but lost his infrastructure. dismembering worked fine because he had the privacy of his garage ... but then his house was foreclosed and now he has no space with the needed privacy.

So, theoretically, there are some possibilities.

A question about duck hunters: Would a duck hunter who drives a pickup or SUV have regularly burlap as sheets or sacks in his bed/trunk? Or only during a certain season? And when is duck season at LI?

Peter,

I'd like to argue that Jessica Taylor was not staged. I found the following information that for me suggests that Jessica Taylor's killer didn't place her torso in an obvious location (dog walking path) where she would quickly be found.

http://www.newsday.com/news/decapitated-body-found-in-manorville-1.472342
"The unclothed body was found lying on a pile of branches near the Long Island Expressway, Suffolk police said. Her hands had been cut off and her body decomposed to the point where even pinpointing her race is difficult."

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/05/09/jessica-taylor-identified-as-skull-on-ocean-parkway/
"The spot at the end of an access road off Halsey-Manor Road in Manorville where the body of Jessica Taylor was found on a pile of discarded wood and sticks"
accessroad.jpg


I've attached 3 satellite photos that I believe are the "end of the access road" based on the photograph. Notice the fence.

As you see, this is just a very secluded location, and is not a commonly traveled trail. My belief is that in 2003, there were barriers erected to prevent access to the power lines that are just due north of this location, where Jane Doe #6 was found. My guess is that these barriers weren't there in 2000, otherwise the SK would have dumped Jessica Taylor in the exact spot as Jane Doe #6 in 2003.

I wonder if this changes your opinion of the "type" of SK the Manorville person is (i.e., #1 instead of #3, in your post).

I also wonder if this may change your opinion of whether the Manorville SK is in fact the same as the GB4 SK (single killer theory). The police have proposed the single killer theory based on the fact that these women were all in the sex industry and the proximity of the bodies.
 

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Posing (staging is something else) doesn't have to be in the literal sense, but is primarily done for shock value and to further degrade the victims. In the case of a dismembered torso, the mere display of it is enough to call it posing. While Ms. Taylor's remains were discovered in a remote location, the photos appear to show that, the tree screen notwithstanding, the LIE and the sump road are visible at each other's distance. I'm surprised to find that the remains were so close to the exposed dirt road and not twenty feet back into the pines.

By contrast, the GB4 appear to have undergone an effort on the killer's part to conceal them - not only was it successful but the accumulation over the years would have made the Gilgo area a totem place. Maybe he's a duck hunter after all.
 
Did the ME ever say how long the victims on (Gilgo Beach) were at the location they were found at?
 
idk
Off the top of my head I can recall several serial killers that kept the bodies at home.
Anthony Sowell
John Wayne Gacy
Gary Michael Heidnik (who was caught before all were murdered)
Charles Ng
Fred West/Rosemary West
Dahmer

possibly this was his backyard in their world?

Also some of you may remember the case of Robert Yates, the Spokane serial killer who literally buried a victim right outside his bedroom window. If that isn't creepy I don't know what is! Of course next to Gacy and the Wests it's not quite so horrific, but it's still extremely disturbing.

I'm still on the fence as to where the Long Island SK lives. I do think that he at least used to live on LI or vacationed there as a kid. He may very well live in Manhattan and and drove down to his "playground". Maybe he lives elsewhere in the New York area and has a vacation home on LI. Divides his time between the two residences. IIRC Maureen Brainard-Barnes disappeared from the Super 8 motel near Times Square, where he made the phone calls to Amber. Seems to be an area of comfort and convenience for him.

Of course on the other side of the coin, he's gotten away with murder for years now. Perhaps living in OB was the perfect place. His victims were always nearby for a quick visit. Prior to SG's disappearance it was a perfect "hiding in plain sight" location. If he wasn't rattled by all of the LE activity after she disappeared and the discovery of all of his bodies, he must be supremely confident in his ability to outsmart them. Of course it had to be quite a rush to get all of that media attention. The more certain he is of his genius status, just a miniscule increment of carelessness will do him in. He probably will make that one mistake, if he hasn't already, that will get him apprehended.

So I'm still waiting, along with all of you, for the release of SG's COD. I'm glad that they're taking their time to do a thorough and precise autopsy. I hope that they'll be able to tell how long her bones were there. Will they be able to determine what drugs were in her system? I think she was taken elsewhere and kept while they were doing the initial searches. I'm trying to remain open minded on the possibility of her drowning, but I must say that that's a stretch. They say that life is sometimes stranger than fiction, this would be the ultimate bizarre coincidence! Her jeans and belongings being so far from her really makes it tough to swallow this theory. They were found too close to the homes for her to develop hypothermia and take her jeans off. Unless she was completely disoriented and lost, running in circles. It really is a mystery.

So OB----lots of suspicion surrounding that place. Has power, money and influence affected justice? I don't know. The more I think about Brewer, Pak, Coletti and the good Dr. the more nebulous things get. I come up with a few theories and the more I consider everything, they just don't hold up or make any sense. I really think the SK is working alone, how many killers that murder others with someone else get away with it for years? (other than the Mob). I hope they have the SK under 24 hour survelliance, if so he'll have to crack at some point.
 
You know I remember as a kid when we lived in the city for the summer we went to the family cabin on the Lake in CT. After that was sold we played at these beaches non-stop and lived in various small towns around them.
I now live in S. FL. A lot of NYers move here for the winter but more and more the past 12 years or so the people from LI tend to move to Port ST Lucie, FL.
eta:
just throwing that out there in case it is relevant
I am unsure where they may live but, a lot of people can know this area if they are from New York.
 
The killer's best striking distance to all three of the LI pick-up points comes from the urban-suburban region between the three towns - the Babylons, Wantaugh, etc. It puts him within striking distance of OB as well. His method enables him to trawl close to home without running the risk of being seen by people who might know him. And doing it from an area where the risk, however slight does exist, necessitates the method he uses. Given what we know about it in the public, he may be working on how to change it or is considering a new area from which to work.
Consider: none of this was news until December, 2010, by which time he would have needed to use such a method for subsequent pick ups, but he's already doing it - it's likely that the risk of being recognized already existed. He could live to the north, on OB, but comfort, familiarity and repetition put him closer, IMO, to a location more central to those points.

IMO, the Manorville killer and the GB4 killer aren't the same person, but that's for another thread. As it is, the GB4 accumulated over a three year period, indicating a high level of comfort for that area, but not a residency within it. By putting them in a place that he likes to frequent, he can have his fantasy close at hand, even pass by the dumpsite with a whole family in tow, and still not be associated with it, even if it was discovered while he was there. That's a totem place. The two keys to a totem place are that it already be a comfort zone to the killer and that it be far away from him. When he is caught, we'll probably find a higher level of intimacy with the area than just that he knew OP is almost deserted late at night, but not that he lived there during his spree.

The Manorville crimes OTOH begin in 1996, with Jane Doe #6. According to Geberth, a killer's first crime(s) is/are committed close to home. That would likely make her and the subsequent victims (incl. the mother and baby, John Doe, Ms. Taylor, Jane Doe #10) the victims of a Barrier Island resident (at the time of JD #6's death). This is not necessarily the case, but the odds appear to favor the line of thinking.

BTW: in the above, about the Manorville pics, I forgot to consider that Ms. Taylor's remains were found in a garbage bag(s?) and therefore the term "posed" is kind of hinkey. It's only semantics, but the larger point is still that Ms. Taylor and #6 were not subjected to a serious effort to hide his victims (and thus Manorville was probably not intended to serve as a revisitable totem place).
 
I can't get the last paragraph of the S.T.A.L.K., Inc. profile of the perp out of my head. Particularly three sentences. Here's what I am wondering:

1. “That reality is that he's nothing but a fragile looser who cannot take the slightest of criticisms.”

Question: I have a strong feeling that LE knows who the perp is. Because of this, I was wondering If the word “loser” was Intentionally misspelled as “looser” because the perp has lost a lot of weight due to addiction issues and/or is attempting to change his appearance and LE is aware of this weight loss? Could the word “looser” be a reference to weight loss and the fact that the perp's clothes are currently fitting him “looser”?


2. “At his core, he feels so much less than others, that he has to escape this reality and focus his mind on his stimulating murderous fantasies (which he will eventually act out on).”

Question: Could the phrase “has to escape this reality” be a reference to the perp using and abusing drugs and/or alcohol?


3. “He is just like the heroine addict that is coming down from his last high, who can't face his demons, so he fantasizes on procuring his next fix.”

Question: Is the word “heroine” also intentionally misspelled because at least one possible victim (Shannan Gilbert) has been cast in the role of “heroine” by the media? Has the perp cast Shannan Gilbert, or other victims in the role(s) of heroine(s) in his distorted mind also? Does the perp talk about Shannan and/or the other victims in heroic terms?

Could the word “heroine”, although misspelled, also be a reference to the perp's drug of choice?


S.T.A.L.K., INC.
Long Island, NY Serial Killer (Partial Profile)
http://stalkinc.com/index.html

I liked their profile as well dwntwnslim-I think they're pretty close to what the SK is actually like. Yes, I noticed the misspellings as well, but am leaning against them being intentional. I'm a stickler about spelling and this stuff tends to drive me crazy, I was thinking about writing them about it. Of course, maybe they think the SK is also a "spelling nazi" (ha ha) and it'll draw him out as well. I like that you think outside the box on interpretations of the meaning behind the misspellings, maybe there's some merit to it. It is a bit of a reach though...At the very least, perhaps they're baiting the SK into thinking that they're well below his intellect, considering he'll smirk to himself that they can't even spell these relatively common words right. I wouldn't put it past them to try a little mind gamesmanship with the SK.

MOO
 
....

.......The Manorville crimes OTOH begin in 1996, with Jane Doe #6.......

.......According to Geberth, a killer's first crime(s) is/are committed close to home.......

Friendly correction:
Jane Doe #6 was found (torso) in 2000 in Manorville, and then most recently (head, feet, hands) between Cedar Beach and Gilgo Beach. There was another woman whose legs washed ashore in 1996 at Davis Park in Fire Island wrapped in a plastic bag, whose skull was later found in a plastic bag near Tobay Beach on the western part of Ocean Parkway. I just call them Jane Doe 2000 and Jane Doe 1996. So the Manorville crime begins in 2000, not 2006.

Also, can you please post a link to Gerber? I'd like to use that in a theory that I'm working on.
 

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