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OM - go here: http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

Look at the bottom of the first page - all that is reported about Toxicology, two items: none detected.
But there are several drugs used for date rape, etc. that cannot be detected afterward.

O dear! Of course I saw AR and saw these 'summary' lines!!! I'm talking about FULL SECTION of AR which must be done (or attached!!!!) SEPARATELY like it was done for example for 'internal', 'external' and 'microscopic' headings for EACH organ, not just blood!!!!

jmo
 
O dear! Of course I saw AR and saw these 'summary' lines!!! I'm talking about FULL SECTION of AR which must be done (or attached!!!!) SEPARATELY like it was done for example for 'internal', 'external' and 'microscopic' headings for EACH organ, not just blood!!!!

jmo

So, if the summary states: "none detected", do we then accept that no matter how many tests were run, their opinion is there were no drugs involved, or by stating, "none detected" and releasing such a short summary, that we are free to question if, indeed, there was the possibility that non-detectable substances could have been given to JB? I rather think we are to assume it is the opinion of the experts that no debilitating drugs were used on JB? Agree?

Meyer did state that he expected to have to give a sworn statement. I just wonder if by writing the autopsy the way he did, he left a path open to further discussion of the possibility of drugging when he might have been called to a witness stand. If there was a cover-up to the degree that it involved the coroner's autopsy report, it would have been one way for the coroner to co-operate with the plan, but be able to assist with the truth if he was ever placed under oath, so he wouldn't have to damage his medical reputation.
 
What was determined or discussed regarding Melody Staton (Ramsey neighbor) hearing metal clashing against cement the night/morning JonBenet was killed?

Was it the suitcase being dragged in the basement or what? Tia
 
So, if the summary states: "none detected", do we then accept that no matter how many tests were run, their opinion is there were no drugs involved, or by stating, "none detected" and releasing such a short summary, that we are free to question if, indeed, there was the possibility that non-detectable substances could have been given to JB? I rather think we are to assume it is the opinion of the experts that no debilitating drugs were used on JB? Agree?
Meyer did state that he expected to have to give a sworn statement. I just wonder if by writing the autopsy the way he did, he left a path open to further discussion of the possibility of drugging when he might have been called to a witness stand. If there was a cover-up to the degree that it involved the coroner's autopsy report, it would have been one way for the coroner to co-operate with the plan, but be able to assist with the truth if he was ever placed under oath, so he wouldn't have to damage his medical reputation.

No, not really. It's the fact that AR we're reading on Internet today (including many resources like ARC and others) is not complete version. Which means that certain things were purposely omitted from the public eyes. Agree? Next, the toxicology analysis involved the tests of:
- blood;
- organ's tissue;
- hair;
- nail;
- bones;
- ...urine, feces...and much more...

I'm not an expert in medical field. I simply read and follow criminal cases and learn as much as I can...Toxicology report was/is the standard procedure during autopsy. Just not long ago, we're waiting for toxicology report in Anthony case where the only remains found were BONES and HAIR.

On the first page of JBR AR, it has been referenced to the BLOOD toxicology result. Nothing else. And this particular reference cannot and should not provide the FULL picture. So, should I assume that because no drug has been found in the blood therefore JB has no drugs at all in her system? No, I cannot assume that because certain drugs cannot be found in blood but can be found somewhere else. It depends on the nature of the drug, it's dosage and possibly much more. I simply questioning: which information from AR is missing and why? And omittion of the full toxicology heading/section makes me simply wonder. :what:

In regards to Meyer testimony, I'm sure GJ had access to the complete AR version, not what we (public) have today.

jmo
 
Good post, OM4U. I think Meyer wrote the report to make it look acceptable to the untrained general public, but open-ended enough that the full report would not be in total conflict with what was released publicly, and could be elaborated upon legally in any statements he might have to give in the future.

Oh, if only we could get some of those documents now!
 
DeeDee249,
Does that suggest JonBenet had her pineapple snack then headed upstairs to her bedroom, where she dressed for bed and Patsy arranged her hair?

.

Hard to say- and again- it really doesn't matter as far as the case is concerned. Doesn't change it one way or the other.
 
http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996warrant09.gif
Items recovered from JB's body state a "black/red/white hairtie, blue hairtie, and a ? hairtie".

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf
The autopsy report states top pony secured by blue elastic band and cloth hairtie, lower pony by blue elastic band.

I take these two descriptions to show that both ponytails were first secured by blue elastic bands, but the lower one did NOT have a cloth tie on it, like the upper one.

I doubt JB would have gone to the party with two ponytails, only one having the decorative colored band over the elastic band. So I definitely think the lower pony tail was made after they arrived home. The upper colored cloth hairtie was left in place, but no reason to add another for bedtime. If there were two ponytails for the party, there would have been two matching cloth hairties, IMO.

However, Patsy was questioned about this:
(0262-16) THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Move on to 13. PATSY RAMSEY: That was her hair tie, that little (INAUDIBLE). TRIP DeMUTH: That unusual for them to be on the floor? PATSY RAMSEY: No. - (0262-25) PATSY RAMSEY: No (INAUDIBLE). This piece of paper with the instructions forthe pot holder or something.

Also, there was a tiny piece of white paper on JB's right cheek when she was found. If there was a second hairtie on the lower pony tail, could it have been yanked off somehow?


As I mentioned, the BOTTOM ponytail was her usual "bedtime" ponytail and would not have been her party hairstyle. Those fabric hair ties don't usually hold the hair very securely, so you'd have to use an elastic (probably coated) first. The two blue elastics, one on each ponytail, are expected and not unusual.
I doubt the things on the floor are hair ties- they are probably the potholder loops. The loom is clearly visible on her night table.
 
What was determined or discussed regarding Melody Staton (Ramsey neighbor) hearing metal clashing against cement the night/morning JonBenet was killed?

Was it the suitcase being dragged in the basement or what? Tia

Melody Stanton did not claim to hear metal scraping concrete. She claimed to hear a child's scream. It was her husband who said he heard metal scraping concrete. The suitcase was likely never dragged anywhere. A lot of the basement floor was carpeted. Obviously the wine cellar was not. But inside the wine cellar where JB's body was placed were metal paint cans and a large piece of sheet metal. Either one could have had to be moved to make room for her body. As far as the wine cellar floor- it was covered with a layer of white mould/concrete dust- very common in damp areas where there is a concrete floor that has not been sealed. This dust was so thick that is was possible for a shoe print to be left. If anything had been scraped across it, it should have been obvious.
 
I wonder if the pineapple found on the counter was tested?

I agree with OM4U that it is suspicious that the full toxicology report is not available. It certainly suggests that there WAS something detected that LE is hiding. It's doubtful that it would have been a date rape drug though as too much time had elapsed for one to be found.

This makes me wonder, if they did find something, what it would be. If she were drugged, it's doubtful she would have screamed. So what else could they have found?
 
I wonder if the pineapple found on the counter was tested?

I agree with OM4U that it is suspicious that the full toxicology report is not available. It certainly suggests that there WAS something detected that LE is hiding. It's doubtful that it would have been a date rape drug though as too much time had elapsed for one to be found.

This makes me wonder, if they did find something, what it would be. If she were drugged, it's doubtful she would have screamed. So what else could they have found?

NO drugs were found. The pineapple in the bowl was tested. It was also tested against the pineapple in her digestive tract and found to be identical.
 
Would anyone mind answering some questions I have about the case? I’ve been reading and searching this site for a month or so now, and I thought it might be quicker to just ask, especially since I’m having trouble corroborating certain facts. I am behind on the case and not quite as seasoned as posters here appear to be, so please bear with me. Please don't hesitate to respond if you only know 1 or 2 answers.

I will do my best.

1. One of the Ramseys neighbors said they heard a scream the night of the murder, but then I read that they took it back and that they had never heard any scream. Does anyone know what the truth is? Or why the said this?

When investigators were conducting their initial canvas of the neighborhood the neighbor across the street, Melody Stanton, said she didn't want to become involved and that she had heard nothing unusual that night. On a follow-up canvas of the neighborhood she told investigators that she had gone to bed about 10:00 pm on Christmas night, that her bedroom window faced the Ramsey house, and that she thought she heard a child scream sometime between midnight and 2:00 am. She later recanted this statement. The only person that knows the truth about what she heard that night is Melody Stanton.

2. Was anyone ever apprehended for the large amount of break-ins in the neighborhood before Dec.26th?

In an affluent neighborhood just before Christmas, when there are sure to be wrapped presents laying about, thieves will take advantage of the situation. The burglaries stopped after the murder, but with the increased level of police in the neighborhood, including video-taping vehicles in the area, this isn't a surprise.

3. John Ramsey showered right before Patsy found the ransom note. Was the bathroom and shower ever checked for any kind of evidence?

All the bathrooms were searched for trace evidence, but this would not likely have produced any remarkable evidence since there was no blood from the blunt force trauma to Jon Benet's head, and fiber and hair evidence would have been on his clothes. His testimony was that he went to take a shower after waking up, prior to the 05:30 alarm, while Patsy continued to sleep.

4. Did the Ramsey’s own or ever see the movies Dirty Harry, Ruthless People?

Unknown, nor can this information ever be known to a certainty. A copy of the film "Speed" was found in the house, but John Ramsey asserts he never saw the film. The use of the phrase "Don't try to grow a brain" is from that movie, and that phrase was found in the "ransom note", although that could merely be a coincidence.

5. Does anyone know if John had any knowledge about police procedures regarding crime scenes?

There is nothing in his education or background to suggest John Ramsey had any such explicit knowledge, but anyone with a library card can read up on police procedures.

6. Looking at the floor plans and pictures of the Ramsey house in Boulder, wouldn't it be possible for an intruder to have broken in and waited for the family to come home and go to bed without being detected? Would anyone on the 3rd or 4th floor really hear someone sneaking around in the basement?

There was no evidence that any of the locks were tampered with on any of the doors or windows. John Ramsey asserts that he personally checked all the doors and that they were all locked when he went to bed. The house is very old, and movements in the house can be heard as in any older structure. Investigators stated that every step they took caused creaks and noises in the joists. Also, the house was complicated to move around in at night without lights, unless you were extremely familiar with the layout. Investigators felt that just descending the circular stairwell without lights was difficult, and dangerous carrying a 40-lb child. Could someone have hidden in the house..? Maybe, but why would they do that..? If they have a means of surreptitiously entering the house (by a door or window) why hide at all, and not just break in when everyone is asleep and you don't take the chance of being found..? The alarm was not set, and had not been used in some time. Thieves and others who break into homes want to spend as little time in the home as possible, and they certainly don't sit down to write a 3-page letter after committing murder.

7. Were The Ramseys or their friends checked before they left the home in Boulder on Boxing Day?

Checked for what..? You mean could they have taken evidentiary items out of the house..? Yes, because for the first several hours of the investigation the house was not treated as a murder scene, and that gave the family or anyone else ample time to remove anything and dispose of it in their cars, or elsewhere. The Ramsey family was not searched before they left the premises. In fact, the clothes that they were wearing on Christmas day, and shown in several photos of them that day, were not provided to police for nearly a year. John Ramsey returned and retrieved his golf clubs, but he was planning on flying to Florida, so that's not unusual, except for the timing. What father thinks about playing a round of golf right after his child is found murdered..?

8. Is it really true that the Ramseys phone records were never looked at? How is that possible?

No phone call from the "kidnappers" ever came to the house. Phone records if obtained, would have had little probative value.

9. I heard blood droplets that were unmatched to anyone were found in Jonbenet’s underwear. Is this true? Wouldn’t this prove there was an intruder?

The blood was matched to Jon Benet.

10. I may be wrong, but I thought DNA belonging to an unknown male was found near the very beginning. Some say this DNA does not matter. Why wouldn’t it matter?

Touch DNA can be found almost everywhere, including unopened underwear still in plastic. Unless the DNA can be determeined tobelong to a specific person, and the location and amount is more than found in a transfer, this kind of DNA is worthless as evidence.

11. It was reported Jonbenet had signs of prior vaginal trauma. Then I heard or read that this was untrue. Which is it? How do we know what to believe?

Depends on which Doctor you believe. Jon Benet's pediatrician, Dr. Francesco Beuf, claimed that in the 33 times he had seen her for treatment over the previous three years he had never seen any evidence of prior sexual contact. Of course, if he had seen it and failed to report it he would be guilty of a crime. Dr. Meyer, the Medical Examiner, thought there were signs of sexual contact, and he enlisted the aid of Dr. Sirontak, of the Denver Children's Hospital, who agreed with his findings, but they couldn't agree on the period of time during which the abuse took place. The investigators sought experts in the field from St Louis, Miami, and Philadelphia and the consensus was that Jon Benet had been subjected to sexual abuse.

12. In the mid 2000s, John and Patsy were on Larry King to which they responded to a female caller who I believe asked them 2 questions. After John responded to the first question (though he dodged the core of it) he lied and said he couldn’t hear the perfectly audible second one. Patsy then chimed in defensively, to what ended up being another lie. Here we have both John & Patsy unquestionably lying. Their speech and demeanor doesn't change and also appears to be consistent with other television interviews. If examined, can anything be gained or learned from this? Remember when this aired, how easily they lied?

Nothing they said on Larry King, or in any other on air TV interview, is of any evidentiary value as they were not under oath. Considering anything they said in any of these interviews, unless the interviews were introduced as evidence in court, would be disallowed by the judge.

13. I've never read any of the books based on this case. Is there one that is accurate and fair? If you had to recommend only one book, which would it be? And would you please state whether the book recommended shows pictures of Jonbenets crime scene or autopsy...I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEM. Thank you.

The best book on this case is A. James Kolar's book "Foreign Faction". It contains some crime scene photos and photos from the autopsy.
 
Just keep in mind that JB's pediatrician admitted he NEVER did an internal exam, so although he claims to have not seen any evidence of abuse, in reailty he never looked. To be fair, pelvic exams are not part of normal pediatric procedures and because a speculum would have had to be used, the child would have to be anesthetized for certain. Without this type of exam, any evidence such as the eroded hymen and any bruising, etc, just would not be known about.
 
Could she have been given Melatonin ? Would it have been detected?

I am not sure the affect on a young child- but usually Melatonin just helps you along with your sleep- it is not a knock out drug. Any scream, noise etc., would wake an adult up (so JR can't use this as an excuse)

Just keep in mind that JB's pediatrician admitted he NEVER did an internal exam, so although he claims to have not seen any evidence of abuse, in reailty he never looked. To be fair, pelvic exams are not part of normal pediatric procedures and because a speculum would have had to be used, the child would have to be anesthetized for certain. Without this type of exam, any evidence such as the eroded hymen and any bruising, etc, just would not be known about.

I would love to have a actual OBGYN here to clear this up. I have been told and have seen papers that indicate the hymen is visible without any instruments whatsoever-it is EXTERNAL at at the opening of the vagina- just a simple parting of the folds (when they are in the correct position) and you can see it. When I take my baby age girls in for routine exams the doctor does just that- (and we have had multiple docs so it isn't just one weird medical professional out there). I questioned my other mom friends about this and this exam seems to be standard procedure. A young child gets taken in every couple month until about age 2, then about every 6 months or so until age 3. After this age I have not seen this exam, although the doc did do a visual once over.

My point is, given JB's problems, I think the doc would have looked. And although I don't have a link here, I think he would have seen the eroded hymen without any special procedure. So either he is a horrible doctor or he saw it. However, given his awe of the Ramsey's he might have accepted a story about the douching as a reason it eroded. In modern girls with gymnastics, running around, etc., they tend to erode/break that way anyways.
 
Gymnastics and running around do not break a child's hymen. Poking it with an object or finger does.
We are not sure exactly when the abuse began or whether the doctor ever looked between her legs AFTER it had. He MAY have seen the hymen if he looked, but he may not have seen the erosion and he surely did not see any bruising INTERNALLY just by looking.
 
Gymnastics and running around do not break a child's hymen. Poking it with an object or finger does.
We are not sure exactly when the abuse began or whether the doctor ever looked between her legs AFTER it had. He MAY have seen the hymen if he looked, but he may not have seen the erosion and he surely did not see any bruising INTERNALLY just by looking.

I agree that Beuf might have missed seeing hymen damage, if he only looked at JB enough to see what he believed to be irritation from any other source Patsy was giving him as an excuse for it happening. Might he have told her to use the Desitin for a while, but call if that didn't help, and he would prescribe something?

I think she suspected something was going on with JB more than child sex-play, and I think whatever she was doing to try to 'fix' JB's vaginal problems herself were not working - perhaps making it worse. I think JB was complaining pretty heavily to Patsy about 'hurting down there' and she decided to ask Beuf to prescribe something more potent for her, but without having to tell Beuf what she suspected of JR. By the time she called his office 3 times in one evening, maybe it was because she was frantic for something to help her with her 'bottom spot' pain and problems.

I also wonder if when JB was crying at the party on the 23rd, and said "I don't feel pretty", if what she was saying was really, "My bottom spot is so sore, and mommie won't let me tell anybody else how bad it hurts, so I just have to tell you I don't feel pretty, which is what mommie told me to say if anyone ever asks me why I look unhappy."
 
Gymnastics and running around do not break a child's hymen. Poking it with an object or finger does.
We are not sure exactly when the abuse began or whether the doctor ever looked between her legs AFTER it had. He MAY have seen the hymen if he looked, but he may not have seen the erosion and he surely did not see any bruising INTERNALLY just by looking.

You are right, gymnastics and running won't break it but it will stretch it out. I got a little carried away from the main point I wanted to make: at best, Dr. B is a horribly incompetent and negligent doctor.
 
In another vein of "drug" questioning:
1) Did anyone ever ask either R how much alcohol they consumed on Christmas Day?
I know that the meaning of SBTC is anyone's guess, but Subic Bay has a dark history
2) Did the detectives ever follow a line of questioning JR whether he had any fellow naval associates who had delved into the notorious children’s prostitution rings at Subic Bay? (Can be read in a book – the Marcos Dynasty - by Sterling Seagrave and also in the work of Father Shay Cullen’s efforts to free children from the sex slavery rings.) Seagrave provides horrible illustrations of the “pre-pubescent extremes” of Subic Bay military shore leave. The culture surrounding this abuse was, according to some military, close to blasé.
 
In another vein of "drug" questioning:
1) Did anyone ever ask either R how much alcohol they consumed on Christmas Day?
I know that the meaning of SBTC is anyone's guess, but Subic Bay has a dark history
2) Did the detectives ever follow a line of questioning JR whether he had any fellow naval associates who had delved into the notorious children’s prostitution rings at Subic Bay? (Can be read in a book – the Marcos Dynasty - by Sterling Seagrave and also in the work of Father Shay Cullen’s efforts to free children from the sex slavery rings.) Seagrave provides horrible illustrations of the “pre-pubescent extremes” of Subic Bay military shore leave. The culture surrounding this abuse was, according to some military, close to blasé.

IIRC, the varying statements indicate that any consumption of alcohol by the R's at the White's celebration was limited amounts of wine.

As far as Subic Bay, and it's child sexual exploitation, the Phillipines cannot be cleansed of this tragic reality. I believe that is exactly where JR became aware of this dynamic, and because of the other aspect of Phillipine history, namely garroting, as a widely used crime technique, I can allow for aspects of JB's death being more heinous that most of us want to look at. The possibility of dark, involved child abuse/ritual aspects connected to the Ramseys usually gets brushed over very quickly by most when looking at the crime.
 
I read that JB's teachers and classmates were questioned. Did anyone have any concerns or suspicions from that sector that have been published? If JB had been complaining of pain down there, you think a teacher might have heard about it, given her age.
 

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