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If only we knew the exact time that JBR's body was actually found then a few questions might be answered.
 
Miz Adventure said:
Part of the staging to look as though an IDI? I don't follow that. Why would keeping her arms above her head look as though an IDI?

:thinking:

Does it not make a bit more sense that JBR had rigor when she was wrapped and the person who did the wrapping was unable to move her arms so was only able to wrap her body?
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I am assuming JBR died on her belly, as evidenced by the urine stains on her garments; and that she was placed on her back fairly soon thereafter, as evidenced by livor mortis; and before rigor mortis set in.

The hands above the head, imo, was for ease of placement of the cord around her wrists and possibly dramatic effect. Or, simply because that is where they fell when she was placed there. That's also a possibility. Just speculation.
 
That was the time she was found?

First of all the children had to have been up and about for a while before this tragedy happened. We don't know for sure what time the head blow was struck.

Then there is the matter of an hour (or so) between the head blow and the strangulation so we need to take that into account.

In my own theory PR was busy upstairs packing for the vacation the next day. She eventually went down to the basement to see what the kids were doing (she must have known they weren't in bed) and that is when she discovered her daughter's body.

I think PR must have discovered the body quite a while after JBR had been strangled. Let's just say that PR could see that BJR was beyond hope of resusitation; and was clearly dead - maybe JBR was already in rigor?

How long after death would that have taken? I am not certain but I suspect PR discovered her daughter's body maybe an hour after the strangulation had taken place.

She would have seen there was no point in calling 911. It was just too late to save JBR.


I think that if PR had discovered her daughter's body soon after the head trauma, and before the strangulation - then she would have called 911.
 
Miz Adventure said:
That was the time she was found?

First of all the children had to have been up and about for a while before this tragedy happened. We don't know for sure what time the head blow was struck.

Then there is the matter of an hour (or so) between the head blow and the strangulation so we need to take that into account.

In my own theory PR was busy upstairs packing for the vacation the next day. She eventually went down to the basement to see what the kids were doing (she must have known they weren't in bed) and that is when she discovered her daughter's body.
I think PR must have discovered the body quite a while after JBR had been strangled. Let's just say that PR could see that BJR was beyond hope of resusitation; and was clearly dead - maybe JBR was already in rigor?

How long after death would that have taken? I am not certain but I suspect PR discovered her daughter's body maybe an hour after the strangulation had taken place.

She would have seen there was no point in calling 911. It was just too late to save JBR.


I think that if PR had discovered her daughter's body soon after the head trauma, and before the strangulation - then she would have called 911.
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BBM
Agree - PR was busy upstairs and eventually went down to check. By then, JBR was dead.

Rigor mortis is a slow, gradual process.

"Rigor mortis begins within two to six hours of death, starting with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. This sequence may be due to the difference in lactic acid levels among different muscles, which corresponds to the difference in glycogen levels and to the different types of muscle fibers. Over the next four to six hours, rigor mortis spreads to the other muscles, including those in the internal organs such as the heart."

This is interesting: "Many infant and child corpses will not exhibit perceptible rigor mortis. This decreased perceptible stiffness may be due to their smaller muscle mass." (who knew?)
http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html#ixzz4WnkIYWSq

Niderkorn.png
 
Thanks so much for that, kanzz.

So...just theorizing....if by the time PR found JBR's battered and strangled body, and it had (noticeable) rigor mortis....that would have been say, around 2am?

Even if the doc had taken a temperature it wouldn't had given us the exact time of death but it may have been a help.

So three hours, tops, is probably all the couple had to recover from the shock, hatch their plan and stage the cover up including the writing of the ransom note, which probably took at least half an hour. No wonder Patsy's handwriting is all over the place, she must have been in pieces. This is why I feel certain she had John's help during that time.
 
I guess it is plausible that Patsy is packing and Burke kills her. Maybe he drags her by the arms to the darkest corner of the basement, then as kids tend to do, ran to his bed and pretended to sleep. Patsy checks the kids before bed to make her use the toilet and finds JB missing. By the time she finds her, rigor mortis has already set in, or at least by the time she gets to staging the crime it had.
 
Miz Adventure said:
Thanks so much for that, kanzz.

So...just theorizing....if by the time PR found JBR's battered and strangled body, and it had (noticeable) rigor mortis....that would have been say, around 2am?
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I'd say earlier than that. I believe the Ramsey's were home shortly after 9:00. I'd say she was dead well before 11:00. We don't need to conclude that rigor had set in when she was found, but when she started staging which might have been much later.

My only problem with this scenario is that Patsy would have freaked out when she found her. And why would she think it was Burke? Unless Burke fessed up and told her where to find her?
 
andreww said:
My only problem with this scenario is that Patsy would have freaked out when she found her. And why would she think it was Burke? Unless Burke fessed up and told her where to find her?
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If it was as early as you are speculating, she may have checked on the kids and didn't find them in their rooms. Given that in all likelihood she never went to bed, it's not an unreasonable guess that she may have come across the scene shortly after the crime, with Burke still nearby or otherwise obviously guilty. Who would it be but Burke then? He didn't yet have a phony ransom note to cover him.
 
Miz Adventure said:
Thanks so much for that, kanzz.

So...just theorizing....if by the time PR found JBR's battered and strangled body, and it had (noticeable) rigor mortis....that would have been say, around 2am?

Even if the doc had taken a temperature it wouldn't had given us the exact time of death but it may have been a help.

So three hours, tops, is probably all the couple had to recover from the shock, hatch their plan and stage the cover up including the writing of the ransom note, which probably took at least half an hour. No wonder Patsy's handwriting is all over the place, she must have been in pieces. This is why I feel certain she had John's help during that time.
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Mmm. I truly don't know. One parent made this discovery. My gut tells me that the decision to create a cover-up of some sort must have been soon after discovery of the body. If not, that person would have called 911 right away.

So, if a person is going to concoct a cover-up, the next jump from there is SODDI (some other dude did it). Where do you go in that scenario with a strangled little girl? Maybe a botched kidnapping? OK, make the body look like that.

Then go upstairs and compose a ransom note to go along with this kidnapping scenario. Yeah, that's it... OK, Gotta make it look like it could be a terrorist.. wait.. gotta make it look like maybe it's somebody who knows John. Gotta make sure I add this, and this, oh and this. It's all over the place. Until the last paragraph - which is all pointed directly at JR. "Don't try to grow a brain, John." "It is up to you now John!"

This is just part of the reason I don't think JR knew anything about any of it until after she was finished writing the RN. I think both the wording and tone of the RN point away from, rather than to JR being present or having any input.

I think composition/writing would have taken at least an hour. Maybe much longer.
 
andreww said:
I'd say earlier than that. I believe the Ramsey's were home shortly after 9:00. I'd say she was dead well before 11:00. We don't need to conclude that rigor had set in when she was found, but when she started staging which might have been much later.

My only problem with this scenario is that Patsy would have freaked out when she found her. And why would she think it was Burke? Unless Burke fessed up and told her where to find her?
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We can't assume TOD, or any amount of rigor, or that PR would have freaked. But I think it would be safe to assume that if BDI and PR found the body, she would have known that BDI.
 
Kanzz, are you still online? I am dying to talk to someone about this case... thornwood
 
andreww said:
I'd say earlier than that. I believe the Ramsey's were home shortly after 9:00. I'd say she was dead well before 11:00. We don't need to conclude that rigor had set in when she was found, but when she started staging which might have been much later.

My only problem with this scenario is that Patsy would have freaked out when she found her. And why would she think it was Burke? Unless Burke fessed up and told her where to find her?
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He wouldn't have needed to confess. Patsy knew that only four people had been in the house and now one was dead. That left three and her husband was probably in bed asleep.

When PR found her daughter, BR may still have been there beside her body - who knows?

It's these details that we'll probably never know.
 
It sounds like you are disregarding BR's story that he waited until everyone was in bed and quiet and then used the flashlight to go downstairs and play. Is there any particular reason you favor a "PR still up" narrative over BR's version? TIA.
 
Meara said:
It sounds like you are disregarding BR's story that he waited until everyone was in bed and quiet and then used the flashlight to go downstairs and play. Is there any particular reason you favor a "PR still up" narrative over BR's version? TIA.
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I don't particularly favor any R story. A liar is a liar - but they always mix it with some truth or leave out a simple but telling detail. When he said he used the flashlight to go downstairs and play, I think that was a half-truth and he was talking about going downstairs "to the basement" and play with the flashlight.
 
Has anything ever been made of the "Star" outfit JonBenet was wearing? Reading the Christmas Eve series of events there is mention that they went out to see the big star that Boulder makes out of lights on the side of a hill (I've seen it myself and it's pretty unique.) They mention that JonBenet wanted to actually go up and stand inside of the giant star of lights, but they told her no because she had on too nice a dress (they had just been to church, although they also went out for pasta which is usually pretty messy.) Apparently she was "pretty miffed." Could be nothing, but it is another sign of family tension, and the fact that it gets mentioned at all can make it seem like it was a bigger deal/argument.

Clothing may have become an odd sticking point those days. If wearing a pretty dress (probably more important to Patsy) cost JonBenet from doing what she really wanted (a magical moment in the star of lights) then this could have been an underlying issue when Patsy again tries to dress her up for the White's Party the next day. Was JonBenet's insisting on the sequin star a bit of a way to continue the previous argument? Patsy conceded, but insisted she wear the red turtleneck the next day when they went to Michigan. By her account, she actually put JonBenet in that top as they put her to bed (giving herself the last say on the issue.)

One step further... what if JonBenet woke up and found herself in that red top (or while having it put on against her will)? It seems like such a small thing to get upset about, but with kids and families it is often the small things that are the straw that breaks the camel's back.
 
It wasn't her dress but her shoes. Death of Innocence:

"Then we drove up Baseline Road all the way to the star the city erects high on the rocky face overlooking Boulder. JonBenet had wanted to get out and walk to the center of the big star, outlined in white lights. Since she was wearing her black velvet Sunday school shoes, I suggested that we'd better wait and come back next Christmas with boots on. She was sorely disappointed. 'Well, what's the use of coming up here if we're not going to stand in the middle of the star?" she had asked."

For me the blanket she was covered with in front of the Christmas tree was really creepy. It was covered with images of pineapples and hearts. Stanley Kubrick couldn't have staged anything so well.
 
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