Rape allegations mount against Bill Cosby #2

[melissasmom]

There are some majority opinions from which no one should dissent.

How may of us dissent from the majority belief that no one should be discriminated against based on the colour of their skin? Or sexual orientation? Shall we try to preserve that sort of dissent from majority opinion?

Most of us are glad there was an end to slavery, but heck, should folks that dissent from that popular opinion be encouraged to do so?

Attitudes that have evolved for the better include women's rights, gay rights, racial equality, acceptance of different religious beliefs, and so on. What we are seeing lately is a positive shift in attitudes surrounding rape, including a more forward-thinking view that we do not blame rape victims for their rape because of where they were, what they wore, what they drank, etc. The modern position on rape is that the rapist is guilty of the rape.

Of course there are still neanderthals out there who want to keep a woman down, keep the black man in his place, think its ok to bully the gay kid, etc. but I personally do not find their dissent from the more civilized majority position to be laudable.

IMHO of of course.

Thanks, Slebby. You said it much better than I could.

 

[Slebby]

Not black. Very educated. Female. Married. Okay with gay marriage. Anti-bullying. Anti-NRA. Don't think I fit the neanderthal profile either. I simply have another opinion, which I feel you should respect instead of putting someone down. Give me LEGAL proof, not opinions, not someone saying this happened. Thank you.

You said "I certainly hope dissent from a majority opinion does not go away."

Thank you for agreeing with me that sometimes "dissent from a majority opinion" should go away. See? Your attitude is changing right before our eyes!!

 

[melissasmom]

Not black. Very educated. Female. Married. Okay with gay marriage. Anti-bullying. Anti-NRA. Don't think I fit the neanderthal profile either. I simply have another opinion, which I feel you should respect instead of putting someone down. Give me LEGAL proof, not opinions, not someone saying this happened. Thank you.

But Trino, I think we got off track here for a minute. The issue that I was having and the posts I have been referring to (and Slebby in this case) are posts about how basically if a woman is raped, it is her own fault for "putting herself in that position" and that victims of rape need to "take responsibility" for their part in their rape. These posts are a complete side issue as far as if Cosby did or did not do it. It is victim bashing at its worst. Even if they currently are "alleged" victims.

ETA: If someone feels that they want to see proof of these rapes, that opinion does not bother me near as much as trying to re-victimize someone after they are raped. It still bothers me, but the posts basically excusing men when they rape are disgusting to me.

 

[Donjeta]

Members of 'black media' say it's not their job to protect Bill Cosby

Black journalists voice unease with the comedian’s comments to remain ‘neutral’ in their coverage of the escalating sexual abuse charges
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/17/bill-cosby-black-media-neutral-sexual-abuse-allegations

Akiba Solomon, the editorial director of Colorlines.com, called Cosby’s comments “insulting” to black journalists. “Media is media,” she said, adding that it’s unfair for the comedian to place the burden on black news outlets specifically.

“It makes it seem that black media should take special care of him, and that by taking special care of him that we’re protecting a prominent black man who’s done nothing wrong,” Solomon said. “That’s problematic.”

She said she interpreted Cosby’s comments as a strategic attempt to play up the idea that the allegations against him were part of a “racially motivated” conspiracy theory propelled by the mostly white media. She said this is a powerful tactic, because, as she pointed out, there are always people willing to bring down prominent black figures: “The FBI tracked Martin Luther King,” she noted as an example.

http://www.nola.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2014/12/has_the_press_played_it_straig.html

Cosby: "I think if you want to consider yourself to be serious that it will not appear anywhere." He said he thought AP would have had "the integrity not to ask."

That previous interview belies Cosby's more recent demand that the media be neutral. It would appear that what he wants most of all is for reporters to have such faith in him and his reputation that they refuse to follow where this story takes them

.

The stories about Cosby have been about as neutral as they can be, but it's hard for a story not to seem one-sided when well over a dozen of women say a man raped them and that man won't respond.

I still don’t have that much to say, except to share my own experience. My rapist was a husband and father, and by any account a good one. He got me very, very drunk and offered me a ride home. He had to move a car seat to make room for me in the car. He talked his way into my apartment on totally non-sexual pretenses, then, while I was isolated and too drunk and terrified to defend myself, proceeded to corner, threaten, and manhandle me, then rape me. Mid-rape, he received a call from his wife, who was asking where he was. He got dressed and left to go home to his family. Before he closed the door, he tried to threaten me into silence.

I have no idea how someone develops a moral code that allows him to put his hands on his children’s toys and then, minutes later, put his hands on a woman he’s raping. I don’t know how someone develops a moral code that allows him to tell his wife he loves her and then, immediately thereafter, tell his victim to keep her mouth shut. But it happens.

http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-12-17...ource=sc-tw&utm_medium=ref&utm_campaign=cosby

 

[Slebby]

But Trino, I think we got off track here for a minute. The issue that I was having and the posts I have been referring to (and Slebby in this case) are posts about how basically if a woman is raped, it is her own fault for "putting herself in that position" and that victims of rape need to "take responsibility" for their part in their rape. These posts are a complete side issue as far as if Cosby did or did not do it. It is victim bashing at its worst. Even if they currently are "alleged" victims.

ETA: If someone feels that they want to see proof of these rapes, that opinion does not bother me near as much as trying to re-victimize someone after they are raped. It still bothers me, but the posts basically excusing men when they rape are disgusting to me.

20 years from now, people who today believe it is ok to victim-shame will look back and shake their heads at the backward thinking. It will be like the way folks today look back and shake their heads when they consider the attitudes they once held towards women, or gay people, or people of color. I truly believe we are in a changing time wrt to rape culture. These courageous women have come forward and the dialog in this age of social media has been very productive in changing the way we look at rape victims.

imho

 

[Slebby]

Majority opinion was at the Salem Witchcraft trials, remember?

Now you're just being argumentative when you bring up an event from 300 years ago.

But setting that aside, I did use the word "sometimes".

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I think we'd all be shocked if we knew how much of this kind of behaviour goes on amongst hollywood types, or many other men with too much money on their hands who can pay for sex and drugs with young women and boys, who really could have done with a decent home life and an education instead of finding themselves as available sexual play things because it's a more 'glamorous' way to make their way in life, and they're under the illusion that it might actually lead to something bigger and better. It's been happening since the days of Ancient Greeks (probably longer) and will keep going on forever. For some reason Bill Crosby is going to pay a price for his participation this predatory age old tradition, meanwhile thousands more will not. Go figure.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Famed model hopes her Cosby allegation spurs others to come forward

As more women have come out against Cosby in recent weeks, many of whom say the comedian did rape them, Johnson said she began talking to people in the entertainment business about her own story.
"The response was, 'Oh yeah, we know he has been doing that for quite a while.' It was like, everyone knew," Johnson said. "But people like myself, I most certainly wouldn't have gone to Bill Cosby's brownstone if I knew the reputation he had with assaulting women."
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/12/s...beverly-johnson-cosby-allegations/?hpt=en_bn1

Bbm- As mentioned earlier – and I agree, the common theme here is indeed straight from the “wolf in sheep’s clothing” story. So, to me, engaging someone under false pretenses (calculated) is almost more egregious than any of the other details.

For Beverly, who was groundbreaking in her own right, the fact that she was not honored or held in the highest regard by Cosby is just the saddest story. She is luminous, and one of the hardest working women in her industry. In spite of being rattled by Whoopi, I think Beverly’s account is very grounded. Both she and Janice were high profile – and were both left with little power under these circumstances in the 1980’s.

The legal precedence was established 2006 by Andrea Constand who was really the one who busted BC’s modus operandi wide open– and she had big back up, then. She had nothing to do with Hollywood, or related industries. Omg – how this must have messed her up, completely derailed her in her prime. She looked up to this person. -To not give someone the chance to say “no thank you”, but instead render them completely helpless and incapacitated is something that is just so difficult to wrap my understanding around. Who in their right mind would drug someone without consent? Clearly, this young woman had no idea what she was walking into.

A great point was mentioned about the ‘new media’ that is no longer willing to protect celebrity status– and yes, that’s a big change. So, these women now have a voice for the first time. Yet, at the same time, I don’t believe the media’s publishing of every salacious detail will change someone’s opinion of BC’s revered legacy, or barometer of legal requirements that need to be met before an opinion can be given. There is wisdom in not rushing to judgment. (imo)

I can’t think of too many women who would perjure themselves in this way – so to tell their side of the story sends a message, too.

 

[BirdycatNY]

NO! I Never said they weren't sexually manipulated, whatever that means. What I am saying, and none of you seem to want to hear it is - women put themselves in "IFFY" situations then they bear some of the responsibility. The only one responsible for YOU, is YOU.

Why is that so hard to understand? Jump in the lion's den and you probably will get mauled. Nature is nature, and it is what it is, IMO,and IF women want to be safe they had better start acting like it, and if discussion from the other side of this argument is SO disturbing, then maybe some should stop reading. I acknowledged I was manipulated into a "situation" and put full blame on me. So sad others can't do the same.

In my humble, totally honest opinion

Thank you for your honest opinion, Trident, but you are wrong. This is not how sexual assault/being roofied works or how serial rapists/predators work. My guess is you have never been sexually assaulted/roofied because if you had experienced the horror of being violated or having absolutely no control of your body or ability to fight back you wouldn't say something like this because that's not how it happens. Women may go out to dinner with an acquaintance wearing layers of clothing on and thinking that they're just going out with a friend and said friend buys them a pepsi and the next thing you know the woman wakes up at 5 a at this guy's house, raped/drugged.

Rapists, especially serial rapists are compulsive and predators (they look for ANY opportunity to get off on women) grandmas, nuns, any type of woman. Their rehabilitation rate is very low. It's fine that you believe BC and to disagree but don't state things that are absolutely FALSE it doesn't have to do with the women, rapists need to get "off" whenever they want. No woman should have to tailor their lifestyle around that, rapists are very sick individuals and you can never tell who they are until you're accosted or they're caught.

But I do understand that women/men who haven't encountered questionable people in their life might not understand that or people like Mama June who try to normalize it because of possibly their upbringing. As a woman, I think normalizing rape and putting it on women/or/victims is WRONG and harmful. This is because it doesn't address the actual criminal behavior of the rapist if we just let them out and about in society. Because they won't stop. JMO

 

[gitana1]

My father taught me to always be aware and beware. He taught me how to always have weapons available, visible and hidden. He taught me how to use them. How to read people. That I should be wary of being alone with clients, or handymen. How to anticipate and thwart an attack. How to always know where my escape route is. How to make sure that when I defend myself from attack, I leave the person irrevocably dead.

He also taught me that a woman should be able to walk down the road stark naked, through a gauntlet of men, at any time, without being harmed. As a man who loved women quite a bit, he assured me that the only blame for rape is on the rapist himself. The victim has zero responsibility for her rape. Period.

My dad was a hardcore Spanish Gypsy who came from a background that valued virginity and purity among women. He lived a hard life among various people. He lived through a dictatorship, poverty, immigration and years of 16 hour days to support his family. He wasn't an easy man. He liked his beers. He was tough on us and expected a lot out of us.

Yet he understood and taught us that women never ask for it and men can always and should always, control themselves.

I'm so proud of my dad right now and so grateful.

 

[BirdycatNY]

I think we'd all be shocked if we knew how much of this kind of behaviour goes on amongst hollywood types, or many other men with too much money on their hands who can pay for sex and drugs with young women and boys, who really could have done with a decent home life and an education instead of finding themselves as available sexual play things because it's a more 'glamorous' way to make their way in life, and they're under the illusion that it might actually lead to something bigger and better. It's been happening since the days of Ancient Greeks (probably longer) and will keep going on forever. For some reason Bill Crosby is going to pay a price for his participation this predatory age old tradition, meanwhile thousands more will not. Go figure.

Totally agree Mrs G Norris, I think there is a Hollywood sub-culture that perpetuates exploitation of bright-eyed young people just looking to make it. Victims, Cory Haim, Feldman, and alleged perpetrators Bill Cosby, Michael Jackson, Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Guy from the WHO etc. etc. Imo the problem is when individuals are big money makers, I think Hollywood employers/others may be looking the other way. Or the exes participate in such exploitative activity. If you deconstruct Hollywood, it doesn't serve this enormous artistic contribution that let's say Shakespeare or some literature does, but boy Hollywood tries to sell people on their image that it's important and glammy. Smoke and mirrors, and lots of exploitation imo.

 

[gitana1]

I grew up watching the Cosby Show. But I don't remember being awed by any wonderful dad feelings. My favorite character was Rudy, the sassy youngest kid. I remember the show as being very funny and entertaining but a lot of the humor came from the daddy character's slightly cruel parenting style. Man, that Cliff Huxtable liked to put his kids down in the name of humor... He wasn't big on self-deprecating humor, the jokes were usually on someone else's expense and it was funny while watching it but I can't help thinking that if your dad made your stupidity the butt of so many jokes it might crush a kid's self esteem eventually.

I have never seen an episode since they first aired so my recollections are a bit hazy and no doubt somewhat contaminated by the recent media storm by now. And, it was a script and I've no idea how much Cosby contributed to the script so it could be quite irrelevant.

I actually own seasons of the show and watch them now and then! I've seen no humiliation of kids. Just good natured ribbing of silly behavior and attitudes on the part of those kids.

What stands out to me is the attitude of Claire toward Dr. Huxtable. I felt that the show was part of a trend of having women characters (7th Heaven), on tv shows in the 90's who viewed and treated their husbands as stupid. They were constantly scolding them and ordering them around.

I think my warm feeling about Cosby came from Kids Say the Darndest Things, Fat Albert and his comedy routines and book about his kids. Funny as can be. He seemed so amused by kids.

But clearly, I was incredibly wrong about the man. It is a lesson.

Non-existent? I certainly hope dissent from a majority opinion does not go away.

Me too. But I hope cruel, archaic and discriminatory attitudes, whether majority or minority, continue to evolve out of existence. And that's what we are taking about right this moment.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Totally agree Mrs G Norris, I think there is a Hollywood sub-culture that perpetuates exploitation of bright-eyed young people just looking to make it. Victims, Cory Haim, Feldman, and alleged perpetrators Bill Cosby, Michael Jackson, Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Guy from the WHO etc. etc. Imo the problem is when individuals are big money makers, I think Hollywood employers/others may be looking the other way. Or the exes participate in such exploitative activity. If you deconstruct Hollywood, it doesn't serve this enormous artistic contribution that let's say Shakespeare or some literature does, but boy Hollywood tries to sell people on their image that it's important and glammy. Smoke and mirrors, and lots of exploitation imo.

Agree with you too! It's not just the stars, it's also the producers, directors, studio execs etc .. go into any major city and it's the lawyers, media types, finance guys and anyone else who can afford to play. I agree, everyone looks the other way. People who make big money make money for the people around them too - nobody is going to stop the gravy train, and beyond that it's just too judgemental for words to take umbrage with behaviour of people of higher status than you, that you can only speculate and gossip about, as the only people who really know what goes on are the ones behind the locked doors.

 

[BirdycatNY]

This is mild considering the other allegations, but I didn't see it posted already, so here goes.

Kathie Lee Gifford's Surprising Bill Cosby Revelation: "He Did Try to Kiss Me"



http://www.eonline.com/news/607018/...g-bill-cosby-revelation-he-did-try-to-kiss-me

It's small, but it kinda seems like BC doesn't really have a filter or know how to gauge whether or not a woman is attracted to him. Unless Kathy Lee Gifford was seriously flirting with him, it seems a bit strange that out of blue BC would try to kiss her. jmo

 

[Trino]

It's small, but it kinda seems like BC doesn't really have a filter or know how to gauge whether or not a woman is attracted to him. Unless Kathy Lee Gifford was seriously flirting with him, it seems a bit strange that out of blue BC would try to kiss her. jmo

Goodness. Has no one tried to kiss you but you turned them away? She only said he tried. That's a long way from rape.

 

[MsMarple]

BBM. No, sorry, it does matter. It matters a lot. Stating that women who are raped were just asking for it, because men just can't control themselves is vile. It is an attitude that needs to go no farther. It is apparent that you will never change your mind, but others, especially our young people, need to be taught that being raped is no ones fault but the rapist.

Rock on, melissasmom! :rockon: Let this generation be the one to put the "asking for it" notion to rest once and for all.

Women get raped because they were in the presence of a rapist. Circumstances, whether reckless or not make no difference. The presence or absence of a rapist does. It's a simple concept really.

Question: What do a 91-year-old grandmother raped in her bed in the middle of the night and an aspiring 16-year-old model who is drugged and raped in a dressing room have in common? Answer: They were both in the presence of a rapist.

Seriously, I wasn't mugged today because there were no muggers near me. I wasn't murdered because there were no murderers around me. If I am drugged by someone it's because someone wants to drug me.

To say differently means that my actions can somehow magically transform a non-drugger, a non-rapist, a non-mugger, a non-murderer into one.

Where would such power come from, my super awesome laser eyes? Nope. A crime can't happen unless someone is willing to commit a crime. You know, someone like those people they call... criminals.

 

[pomegranate]

Goodness. Has no one tried to kiss you but you turned them away? She only said he tried. That's a long way from rape.

Yes, trying to kiss someone is a long way from rape, and if it were an isolated incident I wouldn't think much about it. It isn't an isolated incident, though, and it *could* potentially be another hint that Cosby doesn't recognize or doesn't care about personal boundaries.

 

[gitana1]

Goodness. Has no one tried to kiss you but you turned them away? She only said he tried. That's a long way from rape.

I've happily never had a long-married friend try to kiss me romantically. I just don't think that's close to typical. Yeah, it doesn't prove the guy's a rapist but certainly, it does delve into the realm of sexually inappropriate boundary crossing.

 

[gitana1]

Yes, trying to kiss someone is a long way from rape, and if it were an isolated incident I wouldn't think much about it. It isn't an isolated incident, though, and it *could* potentially be another hint that Cosby doesn't recognize or doesn't care about personal boundaries.

Ditto!! (Or jinx).

 

[Trino]

Rock on, melissasmom! :rockon: Let this generation be the one to put the "asking for it" notion to rest once and for all.

Women get raped because they were in the presence of a rapist. Circumstances, whether reckless or not make no difference. The presence or absence of a rapist does. It's a simple concept really.

Question: What do a 91-year-old grandmother raped in her bed in the middle of the night and an aspiring 16-year-old model who is drugged and raped in a dressing room have in common? Answer: They were both in the presence of a rapist.

Seriously, I wasn't mugged today because there were no muggers near me. I wasn't murdered because there were no murderers around me. If I am drugged by someone it's because someone wants to drug me.

To say differently means that my actions can somehow magically transform a non-drugger, a non-rapist, a non-mugger, a non-murderer into one.

Where would such power come from, my super awesome laser eyes? Nope. A crime can't happen unless someone is willing to commit a crime. You know, someone like those people they call... criminals.

I think your analogies are much different than going to the Playboy Club or going to a hotel room.