Raven Says . . .

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Thanks, julia. I'm not feeling quite ready for graphic pictures right now but will check it out soon.

I don't recall seeing anything about single or double-edged. I never even considered the distinction myself. I wonder if we can infer anything from the block of kitchen knives being taken?

 

[mad hatter]

Anyone know if Raven is right or left-handed?

Pretty sure he's right handed

 

[mysteriew]

You know what I noticed about the defensive wound? That it isn't on the palm of the hand - it appears to be on the top of the finger by the nail, and wraps slightly around the side of the finger. Are defensive wounds normally to the palm side of the hand? If this wound is because of a struggle, I would expect to see more little cuts here and there but that's the only one. I don't know if that wound to the top of her finger indicates anything but this fact jumped out at me for some reason.

But what if as the knife was cutting her throat, she reached up and grabbed at the source of the pain? Could explain why the neck wound wasn't longer.

 

[golfmom]

But what if as the knife was cutting her throat, she reached up and grabbed at the source of the pain? Could explain why the neck wound wasn't longer.

I'm having a hard time visualizing based on the wound diagram. I would think if the murderer was right handed and had Janet from behind, the wound by her neck would be on the left side. If the murderer was right handed, striking overhanded I would anticipate seeing the injury Janet sustained.

Warning graphic depiction:
http://photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/?action=view&current=KnifeOverhandA.jpg

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I'm having a hard time visualizing based on the wound diagram. I would think if the murderer was right handed and had Janet from behind, the wound by her neck would be on the left side. If the murderer was right handed, striking overhanded I would anticipate seeing the injury Janet sustained.

Warning graphic depiction:
http://photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/?action=view&current=KnifeOverhandA.jpg

I think you might have it backwards, gm. If a right-handed perp was behind a victim, their right sides would match up since they'd be facing the same way. Or do you mean that their arm would extend all the way across the front to the victim's left side?

 

[golfmom]

I think you might have it backwards, gm. If a right-handed perp was behind a victim, their right sides would match up since they'd be facing the same way. Or do you mean that their arm would extend all the way across the front to the victim's left side?

Yes, especially considering the angle of the wound.

Here's an example of a behind attack:
http://photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/?action=view&current=chokeattack.jpg

 

[golfmom]

Jerseygirl, think of a right handed person attacking from behind. Now try to inflict a wound on the right side, with the knife ending lower and further right.

I can't see it happening unless it was a left handed person from behind OR a right-handed person attack face-to-face.

Edited to add: (warning graphic)

Here's a better example of a knife attack from behind. Although the knife is at the throat, look to see which side of the body is at risk of the type of injury that Janet received. The left side.

http://photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/?action=view&current=knifebehind.gif

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I see what you mean, gm, but I think it also depends on the type of injury one is trying to inflict. If you are looking to stab, you would probably hold the person with your left arm around the neck, and use the right hand to inflict the wounds on the right side of the body. But there was a wound to the left side of her chest as well so who knows? It would also depend on whether they were standing, kneeling, falling, etc., at the time. There are probably too many variables to really know for sure.

ETA: I have to look at the autopsy again because I thought her wounds were of a puncture nature. If I'm remembering correctly, both had a measurement of 1" in width. :waitasec:

 

[mysteriew]

I hate to keep going back to the same point over and over. But the neck wound and the chest wound really bother me. I am "assuming" that the neck wound was first while Janet was still alive and standing based on the fact that blood was found in the chest cavity on the right and the coroner stated it was from the neck wound. Then the chest wound- even though the pericardium was nicked- there was no blood in the chest cavity. With the pericardium being nicked, if Janet's heart had been beating, there should have been a lot of blood. My question has been the length of time that it would have taken for Janet to die from blood loss and what could have been happening in that time.
I found an article that kind of illustrates what I mean. In Janet's case only her subclavian artery was cut. In the case I am quoting both the carotid artery and the jugular vein were cut.

Please note this is not the same case and even the wounds were different- in this case the wounds were more severe.

http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=3272986

the first blow was carefully aimed to sever both her jugular vein and carotid artery.
Despite the fatal injury she had already suffered, she frantically tried to fight off her attacker.

Pathologists later found "numerous" defensive wounds on both hands and along her arms.

So what happened between the first and second wound?

 

[mysteriew]

When I read the pages from the autopsy report this am I completly misread the part about the neck wound. I kept looking at the tract being backward and downward and trying to picture it. I completly missed that the wound passed across the apex of the rt upper lobe of the lung. It was a stab wound. And the small wound below the clavicle could have been a result of the stab wound hitting the 2nd rib and glancing off, during the rebound the knife could have then cut the skin below the clavicle from the inside. Do you think this is what happened?

 

[golfmom]

And the small wound below the clavicle could have been a result of the stab wound hitting the 2nd rib and glancing off, during the rebound the knife could have then cut the skin below the clavicle from the inside. Do you think this is what happened?

Yes, that's what I think.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Yes, that's what I think.

Does it appear then from the wounds that she was stabbed face to face with the murderer? Right handed or left? If the most likely fatal blow was on her right side, would that be hard for someone other than a left hander...but then we have the stab on the left side of her body? What is everyone's thinking on this?

 

[Marstan]

Does it appear then from the wounds that she was stabbed face to face with the murderer? Right handed or left? If the most likely fatal blow was on her right side, would that be hard for someone other than a left hander...but then we have the stab on the left side of her body? What is everyone's thinking on this?

My take on how this may have possibly happened was this: {{Graphic}}

I think Janet was stabbed in the stomach/abdomen first, face to face. I think Janet probably went down on her knees and went into the "kneeling" position. Perhaps at this time the suspect panicked and ran out of the room, thinking "what have I done, what have I done" and at that point realized he had to make sure Janet would not be telling anyone or to make sure she is deceased. When the suspect goes back into the room, a minute or two later giving the stomach wound time to bleed inside her tummy but when he gets there, he finds she is still alive and at this point he stabs her from above into the neck/clavical area, thus ensuring her death within minutes. He waited until he felt she was "gone" attempting to resusitate her and getting all the blood all over him to cover up the spray, ran outside and called the police. This could be done within 8 minutes according to the autopsy report in my own opinion.

 

[Jenifred]

{graphic}
I haven't read the whole autopsy report, but from what I saw at planethuff/darkside, it said that there were two liters of blood around the wound to the shoulder. Did it say anything about pooled blood in the chest wound? This is the reason why I think that the shoulder wound came first. And the chest stab was second and after the body had lost blood.

So I think that the shoulder wound came first, Janet fell to the floor (in the bent over kneeling position) and then the prep came back and noticed that she was still breathing or warm and then rolled her over stabbed her in the chest (thus gravity and time elapsed would reduce the bleeding in that wound and why the report from W.L. Early said that he saw a large amount of blood near the body but not much under it). But this doesn't explain the angle that I'm understanding from reading the autopsy pages. Maybe he was being rough or pushing her around--I'm not putting anything past this slimeball.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

My take on how this may have possibly happened was this: {{Graphic}}

I think Janet was stabbed in the stomach/abdomen first, face to face. I think Janet probably went down on her knees and went into the "kneeling" position. Perhaps at this time the suspect panicked and ran out of the room, thinking "what have I done, what have I done" and at that point realized he had to make sure Janet would not be telling anyone or to make sure she is deceased. When the suspect goes back into the room, a minute or two later giving the stomach wound time to bleed inside her tummy but when he gets there, he finds she is still alive and at this point he stabs her from above into the neck/clavical area, thus ensuring her death within minutes. He waited until he felt she was "gone" attempting to resusitate her and getting all the blood all over him to cover up the spray, ran outside and called the police. This could be done within 8 minutes according to the autopsy report in my own opinion.

Was Janet stabbed in the stomach??? I thought it was the chest (no blood in cavity) and the neck (lots of blood)?

 

[Marstan]

You are right it was the chest she was stabbed in, my bad. But the chest wound did not hit any organs although it did nick the pericardium (spelling please). Will have to do a little more reading, sorry.

 

[Marstan]

On second look at the autopsy, maybe I should go back to my day job!!:slap:

 

[mysteriew]

My theory is that the suspect approached her from behind and while grabbing her with the left hand or arm- stabbed her in the right side of the neck. She feeling the pain- reached up to the area and encountered the knife, thus the defensive wound to the finger. With the blood loss/loss of strength she began to collapse to her knees. What else was going on at this time I am not sure, but suspect that it involved some yelling, recriminations, complaints etc. Thus working the suspect up. When she didn't die right away after getting worked up from all of the yelling, he picked her upper body up from behind and while leaning over her plunged the knife into her chest at about the same moment that she actually died. When he released the body, I think that is when her body fell over from the knee to chest position to lying almost on her side or even partially onto her back.

 

[Marstan]

Makes sense Mysteriew

 

[lauriej]

Abaroa would not talk about his wife's death or the investigation, but said he is determined to get through it.



"I think faith has a lot to do with it," he said.

http://www.wral.com/news/4880662/detail.html

........in light of what we've heard about raven and his family having quit attending church out in utah............he has some nerve talking about his "faith" in a news interview.........

..note to raven:....".i've got faith too..............in an arrest.....and soon....".