Blunt-force trauma also includes certain contact when the head hits an immovable object such as blunt force trauma occurring in an automobile accident, i.e. the head being the movable object and coming into contact with an immovable object.
RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!
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lawstudent
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I think I've seen blunt force trauma listed as a cause of death in car accidents or falling off of something, so I don't think it means you have to be bashed with something - I think it is coming into contact with anything that's not sharp (i.e. not blunt).
Natasha Richardson died of bleeding in the brain, and I don't think she had a massive skull fracture, so it is not that similar. But, she also presumably hit the ground with a lot of force. I don't think it's very likely that a parent shoving a child out of anger would cause that injury, but it's not impossible. I also think a child could fall off a balcony at the top of the stairs (over the railing) and only have a head injury, without other bruising. But I don't know why that would necessitate a coverup unless someone threw her off of it.
Natasha Richardson died of bleeding in the brain, and I don't think she had a massive skull fracture, so it is not that similar. But, she also presumably hit the ground with a lot of force. I don't think it's very likely that a parent shoving a child out of anger would cause that injury, but it's not impossible. I also think a child could fall off a balcony at the top of the stairs (over the railing) and only have a head injury, without other bruising. But I don't know why that would necessitate a coverup unless someone threw her off of it.
That's the thing about bathrooms: lots of hard surfaces.
Chelly
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Right, but is that skull fracture consistent with a head being slammed against a hard bathroom surface?
Or, is it more consistent with skull being bashed with, say, a golf club?
http://medind.nic.in/jal/t10/i2/jalt10i2p144.pdf
"Falls causing fatal blunt head injury (whether accidental or suicidal) had occurred in 24.9% of cases. Falls from heights were responsible in 48.9%, slipping in bathrooms in 31.9% and from staircase or ladders in 19.2%."
"Falls causing fatal blunt head injury (whether accidental or suicidal) had occurred in 24.9% of cases. Falls from heights were responsible in 48.9%, slipping in bathrooms in 31.9% and from staircase or ladders in 19.2%."
ClementineK
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Hi guys 
I'm pretty new here. Can I pick you guys' brains for a minute? There's so much info in these threads that it's almost overwhelming. So I was wondering if I could ask you guys a few questions related to the RDI and BDI theories
A) I'm curious about the BDI theories. I guess what holds me back is wondering if he was capable? Physically but mostly mentally/emotionally. Not saying that I don't think that the little boy couldn't have been capable I just don't know.
I'm just wondering if you guys could inform me:
* Was there ever any history on B that showed any abnormal/sociopathic/weird behavior in the past or during or after the investigation?
* Did there seem to be any notable attempts to cover up information on B's possible involvement or behavior?
B) Regarding PR and JR: I see talk about possible ritual over-the-top punishments of JBR practiced by PR and/or JR.
* Is there any info out there that would lead someone to believe that they abused their children that way? Either personal accounts, or observations about their characters that would lead someone to suspect that they abused their children (or just JBR) that way? Or that they were abusive in general or in other ways?
* Is it just their odd family dynamic and speculation (putting a little girl that young through the pressures that she was under with pageants, their relationship dynamics with the children - idolizing JBR and less attention to BR) that points to this *possible* other abuse in the family - the punishments in the basement, or sexual abuse or JBR by any of the Ramseys?
I'm just really curious. You guys have been discussing for years so I totally want to hear what you guys have to say!!
(I hope that this is the right place to post these questions. I looked around and this seemed like the most relevant thread to these specific questions.) You guys rock, by the way. I'm totally intrigued by this forum.
I'm pretty new here. Can I pick you guys' brains for a minute? There's so much info in these threads that it's almost overwhelming. So I was wondering if I could ask you guys a few questions related to the RDI and BDI theories
A) I'm curious about the BDI theories. I guess what holds me back is wondering if he was capable? Physically but mostly mentally/emotionally. Not saying that I don't think that the little boy couldn't have been capable I just don't know.
I'm just wondering if you guys could inform me:
* Was there ever any history on B that showed any abnormal/sociopathic/weird behavior in the past or during or after the investigation?
* Did there seem to be any notable attempts to cover up information on B's possible involvement or behavior?
B) Regarding PR and JR: I see talk about possible ritual over-the-top punishments of JBR practiced by PR and/or JR.
* Is there any info out there that would lead someone to believe that they abused their children that way? Either personal accounts, or observations about their characters that would lead someone to suspect that they abused their children (or just JBR) that way? Or that they were abusive in general or in other ways?
* Is it just their odd family dynamic and speculation (putting a little girl that young through the pressures that she was under with pageants, their relationship dynamics with the children - idolizing JBR and less attention to BR) that points to this *possible* other abuse in the family - the punishments in the basement, or sexual abuse or JBR by any of the Ramseys?
I'm just really curious. You guys have been discussing for years so I totally want to hear what you guys have to say!!
(I hope that this is the right place to post these questions. I looked around and this seemed like the most relevant thread to these specific questions.) You guys rock, by the way. I'm totally intrigued by this forum.
elannia
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Hi guys
A) I'm curious about the BDI theories. I guess what holds me back is wondering if he was capable? Physically but mostly mentally/emotionally. Not saying that I don't think that the little boy couldn't have been capable I just don't know.
I'm just wondering if you guys could inform me:
* Was there ever any history on B that showed any abnormal/sociopathic/weird behavior in the past or during or after the investigation?
* Did there seem to be any notable attempts to cover up information on B's possible involvement or behavior?
B) Regarding PR and JR: I see talk about possible ritual over-the-top punishments of JBR practiced by PR and/or JR.
* Is there any info out there that would lead someone to believe that they abused their children that way? Either personal accounts, or observations about their characters that would lead someone to suspect that they abused their children (or just JBR) that way? Or that they were abusive in general or in other ways?
* Is it just their odd family dynamic and speculation (putting a little girl that young through the pressures that she was under with pageants, their relationship dynamics with the children - idolizing JBR and less attention to BR) that points to this *possible* other abuse in the family - the punishments in the basement, or sexual abuse or JBR by any of the Ramseys?
I'm just really curious. You guys have been discussing for years so I totally want to hear what you guys have to say!!
(I hope that this is the right place to post these questions. I looked around and this seemed like the most relevant thread to these specific questions.) You guys rock, by the way. I'm totally intrigued by this forum.
Welcome to WS. Im fairly new here to but i have studied the case for awhile before I actually started posting on the threads. Yes its overwhelming all the different threads on here lol
Chelly
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Hi guys
A) I'm curious about the BDI theories. I guess what holds me back is wondering if he was capable? Physically but mostly mentally/emotionally. Not saying that I don't think that the little boy couldn't have been capable…I just don't know.
I'm just wondering if you guys could inform me:
* Was there ever any history on B that showed any abnormal/sociopathic/weird behavior in the past or during or after the investigation?
* Did there seem to be any notable attempts to cover up information on B's possible involvement or behavior?
B) Regarding PR and JR: I see talk about possible ritual over-the-top punishments of JBR practiced by PR and/or JR.
* Is there any info out there that would lead someone to believe that they abused their children that way? Either personal accounts, or observations about their characters that would lead someone to suspect that they abused their children (or just JBR) that way? Or that they were abusive in general or in other ways?
* Is it just their odd family dynamic and speculation (putting a little girl that young through the pressures that she was under with pageants, their relationship dynamics with the children - idolizing JBR and less attention to BR) that points to this *possible* other abuse in the family - the punishments in the basement, or sexual abuse or JBR by any of the Ramseys?
I'm just really curious. You guys have been discussing for years so I totally want to hear what you guys have to say!!
(I hope that this is the right place to post these questions. I looked around and this seemed like the most relevant thread to these specific questions.) You guys rock, by the way. I'm totally intrigued by this forum.
Welcome!
Check out this link!
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetindex.htm
Welcome
A) I'm curious about the BDI theories. I guess what holds me back is wondering if he was capable? Physically but mostly mentally/emotionally. Not saying that I don't think that the little boy couldn't have been capable…I just don't know.
1. The first question you have to ask is whether Burke intentionally wanted to kill his sister. If the death was unintentional as part of sex game, it may not matter whether Burke was mentally capable of killing his sister.
2. Burke has hit his sister once before. That would indicate prior motive and means.
3. Sociopaths have to start somewhere, why not when your a kid? History has shown us several instances of kids committing murder. History has show several instances of child soldiers being proficient to kill people without even blinking an eye. Why shouldn't we believe a child can kill his own sister.
There is potential physical evidence of prior molestation. Check the threads on JBR's autopsy.
There is also the fact that there were an unusual amount of visits to the pediatrician
Also at least one witness who claims they caught JBR & BR in bed together.
1. I would start with the possibility that they lied as to whether Burke was asleep or not when they found the ransom note and called the police.
2. Burke's medical records are sealed as well as his sisters. I can understand his sister...but why him?
3. There is also the general fact that the Ramseys seemed reluctant to having Burke interviewed separately without their lawyers.
A) I'm curious about the BDI theories. I guess what holds me back is wondering if he was capable? Physically but mostly mentally/emotionally. Not saying that I don't think that the little boy couldn't have been capable…I just don't know.
1. The first question you have to ask is whether Burke intentionally wanted to kill his sister. If the death was unintentional as part of sex game, it may not matter whether Burke was mentally capable of killing his sister.
2. Burke has hit his sister once before. That would indicate prior motive and means.
3. Sociopaths have to start somewhere, why not when your a kid? History has shown us several instances of kids committing murder. History has show several instances of child soldiers being proficient to kill people without even blinking an eye. Why shouldn't we believe a child can kill his own sister.
There is potential physical evidence of prior molestation. Check the threads on JBR's autopsy.
There is also the fact that there were an unusual amount of visits to the pediatrician
Also at least one witness who claims they caught JBR & BR in bed together.
1. I would start with the possibility that they lied as to whether Burke was asleep or not when they found the ransom note and called the police.
2. Burke's medical records are sealed as well as his sisters. I can understand his sister...but why him?
3. There is also the general fact that the Ramseys seemed reluctant to having Burke interviewed separately without their lawyers.
Thought provoking questions ClementineK
re: candy rose
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-ramsey-grand-jury.htm
"Grand Jury witnesses
Some of the people known to have testified before the Ramsey grand jury:
Carol Piirto -- Burke Ramsey's third-grade teacher."
Post true bill release, I wonder why she was in the mix of witnesses.
re: candy rose
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-ramsey-grand-jury.htm
"Grand Jury witnesses
Some of the people known to have testified before the Ramsey grand jury:
Carol Piirto -- Burke Ramsey's third-grade teacher."
Post true bill release, I wonder why she was in the mix of witnesses.
Hi guys
A) I'm curious about the BDI theories. I guess what holds me back is wondering if he was capable? Physically but mostly mentally/emotionally. Not saying that I don't think that the little boy couldn't have been capable…I just don't know.
I'm just wondering if you guys could inform me:
* Was there ever any history on B that showed any abnormal/sociopathic/weird behavior in the past or during or after the investigation?
* Did there seem to be any notable attempts to cover up information on B's possible involvement or behavior?
B) Regarding PR and JR: I see talk about possible ritual over-the-top punishments of JBR practiced by PR and/or JR.
* Is there any info out there that would lead someone to believe that they abused their children that way? Either personal accounts, or observations about their characters that would lead someone to suspect that they abused their children (or just JBR) that way? Or that they were abusive in general or in other ways?
* Is it just their odd family dynamic and speculation (putting a little girl that young through the pressures that she was under with pageants, their relationship dynamics with the children - idolizing JBR and less attention to BR) that points to this *possible* other abuse in the family - the punishments in the basement, or sexual abuse or JBR by any of the Ramseys?
I'm just really curious. You guys have been discussing for years so I totally want to hear what you guys have to say!!
(I hope that this is the right place to post these questions. I looked around and this seemed like the most relevant thread to these specific questions.) You guys rock, by the way. I'm totally intrigued by this forum.
Hi and welcome to the forum!
I lean towards the BDI theories myself. (with coverup by the parents). The GJ seems to agree.
There wasn't truly "sociopathic" behavior in the aftermath, but those who dealt with BR found him oddly detached from the death of his sister. Some of his behavior was odd/weird, not sociopathic per se. That same morning they were supposed to leave for the trip, with his sister dead in the basement at that point, he was taken downstairs to a houseful of R friends and police, brought to FW's house, and never asked where his sister was, or why he was being sent to a friend's house-never asked why they weren't going on the trip. A psychiatrist who examined him thought his behavior was odd as well. He was smiling and happy at JB's funeral.
There were plenty of attempts to cover up anything in BR's records. His medical records were sealed. A housekeeper would periodically find him under a blanket with his sister "playing". When discovered, he became enraged.
I am not so sure there was ritual punishment of either child. I have not seen anything about severe punishment of BR. There was some talk from the housekeeper about Patsy taking JB into the bathroom after she had soiled herself and there was always crying and screaming. She doesn't know specifically what occurred at these times.
There was never any reports from friends that the children seemed to be physically abused. People thought Patsy's managing of JB's pageant "career" was over-the-top.
JB was said to dislike the basement. Nothing was said about why. No one really knows how BR felt about his mother's focus on JB and her pageants.
Patsy was not the only stage mother with dreams of stardom for her daughter. Patsy's mother Nedra had seen both Patsy and her sister Polly try for the Miss America crown and miss the mark. She was determined that JB would achieve what her mother and aunt couldn't. But many parents of child actors and other performers are just as oppressive with regards to their child's success. Those kids don't all end up dead, and I don't think Patsy's behavior could be considered abuse in the true sense of the word. Would I do it? NO. Would most of us do it? No. But Patsy was fixated on JB wearing that Miss America crown. Libarace probably didn't always want to practice the piano either. But his mother made him. JB's life, with her dance and voice lessons, pageant coaches, expensive costumes, fittings, hair and make-up, etc. seems extreme to most people. But to them, it was just a means to an end. Her life was't as "normal" as her classmates. But it was "normal" to her and her family. I don't think anyone looking at the family or even knowing the family could ever have foreseen this happening. But no one really knows what went on in the family home behind closed doors. The GJ indictments of the parents indicate that they allowed JB to be in a situation where abuse led to her death. They failed to protect her from her abuser, and attempted to prevent police from discovering who that abuser was. The parents would simply not have done this for anyone else apart from another family member. And there was only one other family member in the house that night. (allegedly).
ClementineK
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Thanks guys for all the great replies!!!
Thanks, Chelly, for the candy rose link. That looks like it's going to be a great source of info.
Thank you, The Bunk - This info was especially interesting to me..
Good points….I am going to look for info on his age at the time and the type of "hit." Not that hitting your sister, especially your younger sister is a nice thing to do…but I'm curious how old he was when it happened. 12 vs. 6 years old seems a lot worse to me than 3 vs. 9 ect. Dang. I hope I have those ages right.. I'm going to feel silly if I don't.
Also going to check into those visits to the pediatrician. Thank you.
True… That is kind of a *major* piece of the puzzle. Why in the world tell that lie…. and why not be spending a lot of time comforting him if he witnessed any of it, even if that was just limited to the emotional trauma of witnessing his parents freaking out after finding a ransom note (if that WAS how it went). Seeing reason enough to lie about that and denying him support as his parents also - That shows a major reason to lie (cover up) as the only motive for that.
More good info, DeeDee - Thank you!!!
That is odd. Playing devil's advocate, if that's the right word for this - is something I like to do.
For instance, I can see maybe a 4,5,6 year old child going into a sort of emotional "shock" and therefore not asking questions,..that is if the child was being silent and not speaking much if at all. But he wasn't a small child…
Yikes!!! :notgood:
I think that my wording of "ritual punishment" might not have been the best wording. Your wording of "severe" was better. Depending on what was really going on in those situations that could have very well been 'severe' punishment' unless it was a tantrum by JB.…But why would a child of that age throw a tantrum at being taken out of soiled clothes to be cleaned up and redressed? A baby/toddler might cry and scream at having a diaper changed if they're cranky ect., but no one likes being in soiled clothes.
Yup. This.
And this.
I think it's sad that in the media spotlight an innocent family, just the same as a guilty family, will be analyzed and their life and character picked apart and put under a magnifying glass…..but….That's how it goes. <--- That doesn't mean I think the Ramseys are innocent. That's just me analyzing.
Well, the aspect of that that I am getting at though is how so many people will come forward regardless of the situation, hungry for spotlight attention ect., and make claims (true or false), probably a lot of exaggerations at the very least, which makes sorting the true damning evidence (accounts of past behavior) vs. the false accounts of the family's behavior/dynamics almost impossible to sort out.
Thanks, Chelly, for the candy rose link. That looks like it's going to be a great source of info.
Thank you, The Bunk - This info was especially interesting to me..
Good points….I am going to look for info on his age at the time and the type of "hit." Not that hitting your sister, especially your younger sister is a nice thing to do…but I'm curious how old he was when it happened. 12 vs. 6 years old seems a lot worse to me than 3 vs. 9 ect. Dang. I hope I have those ages right.. I'm going to feel silly if I don't.
Also going to check into those visits to the pediatrician. Thank you.
True… That is kind of a *major* piece of the puzzle. Why in the world tell that lie…. and why not be spending a lot of time comforting him if he witnessed any of it, even if that was just limited to the emotional trauma of witnessing his parents freaking out after finding a ransom note (if that WAS how it went). Seeing reason enough to lie about that and denying him support as his parents also - That shows a major reason to lie (cover up) as the only motive for that.
More good info, DeeDee - Thank you!!!
That is odd. Playing devil's advocate, if that's the right word for this - is something I like to do.
For instance, I can see maybe a 4,5,6 year old child going into a sort of emotional "shock" and therefore not asking questions,..that is if the child was being silent and not speaking much if at all. But he wasn't a small child…
Yikes!!! :notgood:
I think that my wording of "ritual punishment" might not have been the best wording. Your wording of "severe" was better. Depending on what was really going on in those situations that could have very well been 'severe' punishment' unless it was a tantrum by JB.…But why would a child of that age throw a tantrum at being taken out of soiled clothes to be cleaned up and redressed? A baby/toddler might cry and scream at having a diaper changed if they're cranky ect., but no one likes being in soiled clothes.
Yup. This.
And this.
I think it's sad that in the media spotlight an innocent family, just the same as a guilty family, will be analyzed and their life and character picked apart and put under a magnifying glass…..but….That's how it goes. <--- That doesn't mean I think the Ramseys are innocent. That's just me analyzing.
Well, the aspect of that that I am getting at though is how so many people will come forward regardless of the situation, hungry for spotlight attention ect., and make claims (true or false), probably a lot of exaggerations at the very least, which makes sorting the true damning evidence (accounts of past behavior) vs. the false accounts of the family's behavior/dynamics almost impossible to sort out.
elannia
Active Member
Does anyone remember Pam Paugh on Greta VanSustern and the comment she made? She said I know who killed JB, there were two of them but I dont know which one did it
http://www.640toronto.com/coasttocoast/?refresh=58172
Dawna Kaufmann
640 am coast to coast radio has a JBR segment on live concerning the 'dna hoax'
FFJ and Websleuths have mention.
https://www.facebook.com/PlanetAnnRule
Dawna Kaufmann, co-author of Ann Rule Presents-- Final Exams: True Crime Cases From Cyril Wecht, will appear on Coast To Coast AM with George Noory tonight from 11 p.m. to 2 a.m.! Click below to find a station near you!
Dawna Kaufmann
640 am coast to coast radio has a JBR segment on live concerning the 'dna hoax'
FFJ and Websleuths have mention.
https://www.facebook.com/PlanetAnnRule
Dawna Kaufmann, co-author of Ann Rule Presents-- Final Exams: True Crime Cases From Cyril Wecht, will appear on Coast To Coast AM with George Noory tonight from 11 p.m. to 2 a.m.! Click below to find a station near you!
Here's a link to a transcript of Pam Paugh with Greta.
Aynia
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I'm sorry I can't see the link and I'm very interested in reading that, tia
Heyya elannia,
maybe this link
Transcript for Burden of Proof:Guest Pam Paugh; date = September 4, 1998; Source = Justice Watch Forum]
http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/ppp.html
Pam Paugh, says the killer or killers acted out of envy. I asked her who could have such malice and reckless disregard of life.
PP: The public doesn't know, but the killers know.
GVS: Do you know?
PP: Yes.
....................................
GVS: Do you know who wrote the note?
PP: I don't know specifically which person.
GVS: Is it a group of people?
PP: I would rather not answer that.
.......................................................
PP: Well, and I can appreciate that on your part, as is the rest of the world.
GVS: But you aren't. You think you know who the killer is.
PP: Killer or killers, yes.
GVS: And do you actually know them by name?
PP: I would rather not say that.
elannia
Active Member
Thanks. You would think she would want justice for her niece and would come forward and say who did it
Don't know what happened with the link in my original post above but here's the full transcript at CNN:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/20/bp.00.html
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/20/bp.00.html
Teresa
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Don't want to change topics as this is interesting but I'm sick in bed. After being sick all night and reading tons of info at the candy rose forum to keep from focusing on throwing up, lovely huh, I have tons of thoughts. I was struck how many different stories John and Patsy told. How much they couldn't recall and how many important details they seemed not to be concerned about that common sense says they should have been. Example, John didn't share about an open window he said he found. Reading all the details on their behavior etc. Makes me dumbfounded that there are folks who think their innocent. I know if my child was missing my husband and I
would be in an absolute panic, would never let our 2nd child out of our hands and would do anything and everything that was asked of us. My son broke his arm when he was eight on a family hike. He was running ahead and went running out into a creek bed because he saw dinosaur bones. Deer bones.. His Dad and I screamed at him not to run.. Both of us remember every second of watching him fall, hiking down the hill as he cried, driving at top speed to the hospital and hearing him cry. My son is all grown up now, 21, but we remember everything... The whole thing is just wrong with the Ramseys. Please excuse mistakes in bed typing on kindle.
would be in an absolute panic, would never let our 2nd child out of our hands and would do anything and everything that was asked of us. My son broke his arm when he was eight on a family hike. He was running ahead and went running out into a creek bed because he saw dinosaur bones.
Deer bones.. His Dad and I screamed at him not to run.. Both of us remember every second of watching him fall, hiking down the hill as he cried, driving at top speed to the hospital and hearing him cry. My son is all grown up now, 21, but we remember everything... The whole thing is just wrong with the Ramseys. Please excuse mistakes in bed typing on kindle.