RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[bettybaby00]

If I remember correctly, JR had witnesses with him on the day he broke the window.

I've never heard that before?

 

[Cranberry]

If I remember correctly, JR had witnesses with him on the day he broke the window.

98 Interview
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I can't remember
2 exactly when it was. I've done it maybe twice,
3 maybe three times during the period of time we
4 owned the house. It was a way that I could get in
5 the house if we didn't have a key that was least
6 expensive to repair. It was one single pane of
7 non-insulated glass and.
8 I think that was done one summer I came back late
9 in the evening. Patsy and the kids were delayed,
10 and for some reason I didn't have a key. I don't
11 know why. But usually if I don't drive my car I
12 take a cab or something to the airport and back,
13 and I don't have a key and the house keys are on
14 the key ring.
15 But that was the time, it was in the summer I had
16 come back from a business trip. I think I had a
17 suit on. It was late. It was like about 11:30 at
18 night. It was dark. It was (INAUDIBLE) Amazingly I
19 took the grill off. I think I probably kicked the
20 window with my foot and then reached in and
21 unlatched the window.
22 LOU SMIT: Were you alone at that time?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.


24 LOU SMIT: First of all, now when you
25 drove home, did you drive home when you got in
0216
1 that late that night?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall specifically.
3 But I think I took (INAUDIBLE) and it dropped me
4 off.
5 LOU SMIT: And then they dropped you off
6 there at the house.
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
8 LOU SMIT: So you don't have a garage
9 door opener at that time, is that what you're
10 saying?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
12 LOU SMIT: Do you normally have a garage
13 opener?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: In my car. See I have a
15 garage opener I can get in the house because we
16 never lock the door in the garage that goes in the
17 house. And that was 98 percent of the time how I
18 got in the house.
19 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the garage, in the
21 garage through that door. And I think I had given
22 my key to John Andrew or somebody. I didn't have
23 it. Very rarely that I use the key to unlock the
24 door into my house because I've always had a
25 garage --
0217
1 LOU SMIT: You mean it's normal in the car?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 

[DeDee]

If I remember correctly, JR had witnesses with him on the day he broke the window.

My understanding of the broken window is that John had been out of town on business. He was not driving his vehicle when he arrived home, thus, he could not enter the home via the garage door. Patsy and the two children were at the lake house in MI. He phoned Patsy to come home to let him inside [that sounds like a demanding husband, if it is even true]. She pretty much told him to go to he!!.

The reason John did not call friends and neighbors with keys was because of the late time of night the incident occurred.

IIRC, LHP did not recall vacuuming or sweeping the broken shards of glass as Patsy claimed so vehemently to have been done.

The hole in the window was not large. IOW, not much glass should be found laying around.

ETA: Thanks, Cranberry, for the text from the interview. I did not realize you posted it until mine went active.

 

[bettybaby00]

98 Interview
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I can't remember
2 exactly when it was. I've done it maybe twice,
3 maybe three times during the period of time we
4 owned the house. It was a way that I could get in
5 the house if we didn't have a key that was least
6 expensive to repair. It was one single pane of
7 non-insulated glass and.
8 I think that was done one summer I came back late
9 in the evening. Patsy and the kids were delayed,
10 and for some reason I didn't have a key. I don't
11 know why. But usually if I don't drive my car I
12 take a cab or something to the airport and back,
13 and I don't have a key and the house keys are on
14 the key ring.
15 But that was the time, it was in the summer I had
16 come back from a business trip. I think I had a
17 suit on. It was late. It was like about 11:30 at
18 night. It was dark. It was (INAUDIBLE) Amazingly I
19 took the grill off. I think I probably kicked the
20 window with my foot and then reached in and
21 unlatched the window.
22 LOU SMIT: Were you alone at that time?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.


24 LOU SMIT: First of all, now when you
25 drove home, did you drive home when you got in
0216
1 that late that night?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall specifically.
3 But I think I took (INAUDIBLE) and it dropped me
4 off.
5 LOU SMIT: And then they dropped you off
6 there at the house.
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
8 LOU SMIT: So you don't have a garage
9 door opener at that time, is that what you're
10 saying?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
12 LOU SMIT: Do you normally have a garage
13 opener?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: In my car. See I have a
15 garage opener I can get in the house because we
16 never lock the door in the garage that goes in the
17 house. And that was 98 percent of the time how I
18 got in the house.
19 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the garage, in the
21 garage through that door. And I think I had given
22 my key to John Andrew or somebody. I didn't have
23 it. Very rarely that I use the key to unlock the
24 door into my house because I've always had a
25 garage --
0217
1 LOU SMIT: You mean it's normal in the car?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

Ahh, thank you, I'd forgotten he was returning from a trip where he had not taken a car.

 

[lawstudent]

BBM

Good point. Also begs the question, how does one have their car keys, but not their house key?

I don't know how many cars the Ramseys had, but people who have a lot of cars might not have a house key on each pair. Plus most people usually have a spare key for the car lying around, so maybe it wasn't his main keyring.

And as to the earlier question, if you enter a garage, there is still usually a locked door to enter the main house, if they are attached.

I've never been able to figure out the window thing. Some people would never let a window stay broken like that, but others wouldn't care.

 

[UKGuy]

My understanding of the broken window is that John had been out of town on business. He was not driving his vehicle when he arrived home, thus, he could not enter the home via the garage door. Patsy and the two children were at the lake house in MI. He phoned Patsy to come home to let him inside [that sounds like a demanding husband, if it is even true]. She pretty much told him to go to he!!.

The reason John did not call friends and neighbors with keys was because of the late time of night the incident occurred.

IIRC, LHP did not recall vacuuming or sweeping the broken shards of glass as Patsy claimed so vehemently to have been done.

The hole in the window was not large. IOW, not much glass should be found laying around.

ETA: Thanks, Cranberry, for the text from the interview. I did not realize you posted it until mine went active.

DeDee,
Looks to me as if JR is explaining away evidence of a, now abandoned, prior staging? The suitcase might have represented a failed attempt at kidnapping JonBenet, so the kidnapper simply leaves JonBenet plus suitcase including sham and duvet behind. The latter does not link to any of the R's and JAR has an alibi!

What does JR care about any suitcase, anyway JAR will be returning for it soon, once his new semester starts in January.

.

 

[bettybaby00]

I don't know how many cars the Ramseys had, but people who have a lot of cars might not have a house key on each pair. Plus most people usually have a spare key for the car lying around, so maybe it wasn't his main keyring.

And as to the earlier question, if you enter a garage, there is still usually a locked door to enter the main house, if they are attached.

I've never been able to figure out the window thing. Some people would never let a window stay broken like that, but others wouldn't care.

Yes there are circumstances where you might not have your house key with your car keys (I've had moen fall off!)

But evidently he had taken a car service home.

As for the interior door of the garage to the house, IIRC he stated that door was usually open.

 

[DeeDee249]

The hole is located as if someone had sat on the edge of the window well, and kicked forward with his foot.

The hole is certainly large enough to stick an arm through and open the latch, and the pieces of glass found inside the window well could have been dislodged from the frame when Mr Ramsey (and/or an intruder) pulled his arm back through the window after undoing it.
.

I know some like to criticize Mr Ramsay for not calling someone – a neighbor, a locksmith, etc – but, so what if he didn’t? He was locked out, he chose to break in. Maybe he was drunk (the wife was out of town, ya know), maybe he didn’t want to disturb, or worse, wait around for anyone. Supposedly, he had entered the house in the same manner on one or more previous occasions, so, why not this time?
.

Smit said, in his deposition: “...a person did go in that window in a very close proximity of time to the murder. I can't say it was that night. No one can say that. But I can say it was very recent.”

I agree with this. Because of the disturbance in the window well. Because of the spider webs. Because of the shard of glass sitting on the outer sill.

If you go to the two minute mark of the dailybeast video ( http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a ) and freeze the frame you can see a shard of glass on the outside of the window sill. This piece of glass could not have been placed there by White (or, anyone) unless the window was wide open when they did it. But, it could have been dislodged by someone pulling their arm back through the hole after reaching in to open the latch.

If you look at the sill and to either side of the shard you should notice a splotched pattern which is visible beneath the glass.

Presumably, there is a layer of dust on the sill and the splotches almost appear as areas where the dust has been disturbed (wiped?). If the shard of glass had been on the sill for an extended period of time – months since Mr Ramsey’s entry – then it should also be covered in a layer of dust and we would not see the splotchy pattern beneath it.
...

AK

So am I to assume this is an RDI theory? Because this thread is for RDI theories ONLY. Doesn't seem to fit.

 

[Anti-K]

So am I to assume this is an RDI theory? Because this thread is for RDI theories ONLY. Doesn't seem to fit.

There is no theory in my post.

My post is neither IDI not RDI. It’s discussion of the window evidence and whether or not it supports Mr Ramsey’s claim about breaking the window, etc.

Smit, iirc, was mentioned by you. I’m simply offering my thoughts on that.

No worries, I am bowing out of the conversation and out of this thread.
...

AK

 

[CherCher]

98 Interview
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I can't remember
2 exactly when it was. I've done it maybe twice,
3 maybe three times during the period of time we
4 owned the house. It was a way that I could get in
5 the house if we didn't have a key that was least
6 expensive to repair. It was one single pane of
7 non-insulated glass and.
8 I think that was done one summer I came back late
9 in the evening. Patsy and the kids were delayed,
10 and for some reason I didn't have a key. I don't
11 know why. But usually if I don't drive my car I
12 take a cab or something to the airport and back,
13 and I don't have a key and the house keys are on
14 the key ring.
15 But that was the time, it was in the summer I had
16 come back from a business trip. I think I had a
17 suit on. It was late. It was like about 11:30 at
18 night. It was dark. It was (INAUDIBLE) Amazingly I
19 took the grill off. I think I probably kicked the
20 window with my foot and then reached in and
21 unlatched the window.
22 LOU SMIT: Were you alone at that time?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.


24 LOU SMIT: First of all, now when you
25 drove home, did you drive home when you got in
0216
1 that late that night?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall specifically.
3 But I think I took (INAUDIBLE) and it dropped me
4 off.
5 LOU SMIT: And then they dropped you off
6 there at the house.
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
8 LOU SMIT: So you don't have a garage
9 door opener at that time, is that what you're
10 saying?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
12 LOU SMIT: Do you normally have a garage
13 opener?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: In my car. See I have a
15 garage opener I can get in the house because we
16 never lock the door in the garage that goes in the
17 house. And that was 98 percent of the time how I
18 got in the house.
19 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the garage, in the
21 garage through that door. And I think I had given
22 my key to John Andrew or somebody. I didn't have
23 it. Very rarely that I use the key to unlock the
24 door into my house because I've always had a
25 garage --
0217
1 LOU SMIT: You mean it's normal in the car?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[HoolyDooly]

If you get clobbered, B, would that be a "low velocity/high pressure" clobber, or a "high velocity/low pressure" clobber?

Just curious...

:seeya:

Could she have fallen from a height onto her head
HI I am new here BTW

 

[Mama2JML]

Could she have fallen from a height onto her head
HI I am new here BTW

Possible, but improbable?...

Some info compiled by Miss Marple @ http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682478/Head Injuries:

"General Expert Opinion. A review of literature in the Archives of Disease in Childhood compared the effects of childhood falls to high force trauma (injuries inflicted by someone else), observing: "Fractures are more likely to be caused by high force trauma, including abuse, if depressed, wider than 3 mm, multiple, stellate, crossing a suture line or of the base of the skull." Note that 3 mm is just over 0.1 inches. JBR's fracture crossed multiple suture lines and was 1/2 inch wide in the portion of skulled "punched out" by the force of the blow.

Specific Opinions on JBR Head Blow. Boulder First Assistant DA Bill Wise stated in JonBenet Anatomy of a Cold Case that JBR was hit "with enough force to bring down a 350 lb. Green Packers [sic] lineman" (quote and source from Internet poster Autumn: post 9. John Douglas indicate she had been hit "forcefully enough to deck a three hundred-pounder" (Douglas 2001:429; quote and source from Internet poster Autumn: post 9)."​

 

[lawstudent]

If it could have been due to a fall, that changes a lot of the possibilities IMO. I wish we knew. And I know the door to the house was usually left open, but obviously that doesn't mean it couldn't have been locked. I knew a family who lived in a very nice house who always just left one of the doors unlocked - occasionally one would get locked and then we'd be stuck outside until a parent returned (cell phones weren't common for kids then). My family eventually got a keypad door because my parents are into security - so you need a code to enter a house door, eliminating the need for a key. I can only imagine the theories that would happen if this happened in my family's house. That someone "watched" the entry of the code or something.

 

[chlban]

Possible, but improbable?...

Some info compiled by Miss Marple @ http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682478/Head Injuries:

"General Expert Opinion. A review of literature in the Archives of Disease in Childhood compared the effects of childhood falls to high force trauma (injuries inflicted by someone else), observing: "Fractures are more likely to be caused by high force trauma, including abuse, if depressed, wider than 3 mm, multiple, stellate, crossing a suture line or of the base of the skull." Note that 3 mm is just over 0.1 inches. JBR's fracture crossed multiple suture lines and was 1/2 inch wide in the portion of skulled "punched out" by the force of the blow.

Specific Opinions on JBR Head Blow. Boulder First Assistant DA Bill Wise stated in JonBenet Anatomy of a Cold Case that JBR was hit "with enough force to bring down a 350 lb. Green Packers [sic] lineman" (quote and source from Internet poster Autumn: post 9. John Douglas indicate she had been hit "forcefully enough to deck a three hundred-pounder" (Douglas 2001:429; quote and source from Internet poster Autumn: post 9)."​

Wasn't part of Steve Thomas's theory that Patsy had somehow accidentally hit her head against the tub? Then I seem to recall that later the theory was largely discounted because it was felt the head blow would have had to have been more deliberate based on it's force?

 

[lawstudent]

Wasn't part of Steve Thomas's theory that Patsy had somehow accidentally hit her head against the tub? Then I seem to recall that later the theory was largely discounted because it was felt the head blow would have had to have been more deliberate based on it's force?

I don't know enough of the feasibility of that, but I have heard that theory. It seems like too massive an injury to be caused by that, although I suppose it could always be a freak thing. I guess it also depends on what the tub is made of - would it crack?

 

[questfortrue]

In general the discussions on the head injury are fairly extensive on both WS and FFJ. The coroner’s report describes “blunt force trauma”, which would exclude a fall. It’s believed, iirc, that if it had been a fall, there would have been other injuries and bruises seen on her body.

The blunt force trauma is usually described as a high velocity/low pressure strike to the head (as with a flashlight, pipe, golf club etc.) or as a low velocity/high pressure injury (as being slammed into something, a door knob, e.g.). Respected long-time members have examined this and all don’t agree. Though I think the general consensus on both forums is a head strike with something, in the right circumstances a low velocity/high pressure injury may also be possible. No one knows if the statement about a strike powerful enough to fell a 300 lb man was a scientific comment or simply one of hyperbole. IMO, it was one of hyperbole, since I don’t believe there have been scientific tests on what kind of power or weapon is needed to “fell a 300 lb man”. Again jmo, anyone in the home that night could have caused that injury. moo.

 

[chlban]

I don't know enough of the feasibility of that, but I have heard that theory. It seems like too massive an injury to be caused by that, although I suppose it could always be a freak thing. I guess it also depends on what the tub is made of - would it crack?

Yes, I am reminded of Natasha Richardson. Fell and hit her head while skiiing, no one seemed to consider it serious in any way, I don't think she initially sought any medical treatment at all, and several hours later she was dead. There have certainly been other, less famous, instances like this. So, I really don't suppose anyone could say with certainty that JonBenet couldn't have hit her head on the tub, sink, toilet, etc. All very hard surfaces.

 

[HoolyDooly]

Possible, but improbable?...

Some info compiled by Miss Marple @ http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682478/Head Injuries:

"General Expert Opinion. A review of literature in the Archives of Disease in Childhood compared the effects of childhood falls to high force trauma (injuries inflicted by someone else), observing: "Fractures are more likely to be caused by high force trauma, including abuse, if depressed, wider than 3 mm, multiple, stellate, crossing a suture line or of the base of the skull." Note that 3 mm is just over 0.1 inches. JBR's fracture crossed multiple suture lines and was 1/2 inch wide in the portion of skulled "punched out" by the force of the blow.

Specific Opinions on JBR Head Blow. Boulder First Assistant DA Bill Wise stated in JonBenet Anatomy of a Cold Case that JBR was hit "with enough force to bring down a 350 lb. Green Packers [sic] lineman" (quote and source from Internet poster Autumn: post 9. John Douglas indicate she had been hit "forcefully enough to deck a three hundred-pounder" (Douglas 2001:429; quote and source from Internet poster Autumn: post 9)."​

It just seems such a massive head trauma, the poor kid, that you start thinking further out from the origin - to look at the forest. I was thinking of falling from a height such that her head hit a pavement.......something caused a huge force of impact given the cranial damage. (perhaps away from residence...then body returned to home ???? or does accrued evidence not make this fit ? )


PS just saw your post questfortrue; many thanks......

 

[bettybaby00]

It just seems such a massive head trauma, the poor kid, that you start thinking further out from the origin - to look at the forest. I was thinking of falling from a height such that her head hit a pavement.......something caused a huge force of impact given the cranial damage. (perhaps away from residence...then body returned to home ???? or does accrued evidence not make this fit ? )

I don't think the evidence fits for this type of scenario. The only type of "fall" that could possibly cause the injury she sustained would be a shove into a hard object, ie tub, facet etc. Anything involving any sort of large drop or height, or a fall down a staircase would have shown other injuries, such as a good deal of bruising, contusions, and possibly broken bones.

 

[DeeDee249]

Could she have fallen from a height onto her head
HI I am new here BTW

No. The coroner would have been able to tell the difference. The hole would have been in a different place on the skull and the fracture would have been different also. The coroner determined "blunt force trauma"- bashed on the head.