RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[UKGuy]

~RSBM~
UKGuy,
Based on something you once envisioned, the conversation between JR and PR regarding the spot PR was placed in regards the size 12 panties, I’ve recently been thinking about what JR might have said to BR that late evening/early morning. I’ve never believed JR didn’t have a talk with BR. You may have a better dialogue in mind, but here is my submission for an imagined conversation. Goes something like that Youtube clip otg posted from Ruthless People:

Father: OK, son, open your eyes. Don’t play dumb with your father. You can go back to sleep later.
Son: OK.
Father: You know what happened. We all know what happened. We’re going to talk about this later. You may never say a word about last night and what happened to your sister. Someone asks you, just say someone took her, hit her on the head or stabbed her or something. Do you understand?
Son: Yes.
Father: Even when you are older, tell no one. Dreams of airplanes, sailing, more advanced Nintendo sets, all vanish if you tell. Any infractions of this instruction will mean severe actions. Do you understand?
Son: What’s “infractions”?
Father: Tell someone about last night and we take away your Nintendo. Do you understand?
Son: Yessir!

moo

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questfortrue,

Yes, something along those lines. Obviously JR talked with BR, otherwise how would BR know how to interact with subsequent investigators?

What appears to be missed by many people is that if the case is BDI how come he falls in line with the IDI version of events.

Rather than following otg's clip, I tend to think that the discourse or dialogue was more nuanced than what many might believe. There had to be a question and response dialogue, JR had to know BR was on board.

JR has to feed BR with the R's version of events, including how she meets her end, possibly suggesting it was someone other that BR who killed JonBenet, its this possibility that has AH reaching for his legal booklet?

I personally think that BR recognized the enormity of what took place that night and went along with whatever collusion was agreed.




.

 

[DeeDee249]

I made a post a couple of months ago about a Fatcats Pedophile Network in Denver. I never found any direct evidence of a ring in Boulder. I also wrote to the Masonic lodges in Boulder to ask them if JR was a member. Never got an answer. Most successful businessmen are members of fraternal orders. AF&AM, Eagles, Rotary club, Eastern Star, Shriner's, etc. These are mutual aid societies, and do cover for other members. College fraternities are Masonic in origin. JR and JAR were both members of fraternities. AH and JR could have been lodge brothers. Never was able to find out. My family is Masonic, but I refuse to join.

The rank and file Masonic Lodge members are not privy to the "secrets" that are known by those who have achieved the 3rd Degree (in the US) or the 33rd Degree (Scottish Rite). Most members really are involved in charity and philanthropic works (like the Shriners) and would be astounded to hear what some people believe about the true nature of these secret organizations.

 

[andreww]

questfortrue,

Yes, something along those lines. Obviously JR talked with BR, otherwise how would BR know how to interact with subsequent investigators?

What appears to be missed by many people is that if the case is BDI how come he falls in line with the IDI version of events.

Rather than following otg's clip, I tend to think that the discourse or dialogue was more nuanced than what many might believe. There had to be a question and response dialogue, JR had to know BR was on board.

JR has to feed BR with the R's version of events, including how she meets her end, possibly suggesting it was someone other that BR who killed JonBenet, its this possibility that has AH reaching for his legal booklet?

I personally think that BR recognized the enormity of what took place that night and went along with whatever collusion was agreed.




.

I think the conversation was short, sweet and one sided.

JR - Burke, you saw and hear nothing last night. You went to bed and you woke up, that's it. Unless you want to spend your life alone, you never say a word about it. Do you understand me???


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[ukrberserker23]

I agree with you on that. Most are not aware that they were responsible for things like the French Revolution, American Revolution, Communism, socialism, etc. The information is out there, for those who wish to find it. Most Americans are not aware that most of our founding fathers were Masons, and slave owners. I understand that these organisations do good works. My son would be in terrible shape without Shriner's hospital. But these good works don't offset the evil of the higher ups in the groups. Murder is murder, whether I commit it, or a 32nd degree Mason commits it. But see which one of us goes to prison for it. Most politicians are Masons, Rotary, or Knights of Columbus. Same with most judges, and lawyers. I also firmly believe that all 3 Ramseys were responsible for JBR's death. Since we can't seem to stop these organizations, then we must learn to live with cases like this. There will never be any justice for JBR.

 

[andreww]

In the States it seems very hard to convict somebody with money. They seem to be able to hire the good lawyers, have there own investigators to dig up dirt, and persuade the best forensics people to have any fibres or DNA dismissed. I remember how Marsha Clark was simply outmatched on a daily basis. Its a shame, but thats just the way it is. Best you can do is hope for a hung jury, then pray the defendent runs out of cash by the second trial, like what happened with the Menendez brothers.

 

[DeDee]

Fleet could spell out what he saw as a witness. As long as he doesn't accuse JR of anything, there would be no basis for a lawsuit and people could draw their own conclusions about what he said. From reading his letters, it's obvious he's a smart guy and I'm sure he could draft a statement that would be bulletproof legally. Or maybe he doesn't really know anything and his opinions are all based on the Ramsey's behavior rather than actual evidence.

Nonetheless I sure would like to hear his story about the discovery of the body. From JRs testimony he led Fleet to the train room looking for things out of place. As soon as Fleet turned his back, JR had found her in the opposite end of the basement, a hallway and two rooms away. They were down there less than a minute! How did that happen? He made a beeline for that WC as soon as Fleet was distracted looking for glass. And why look for glass anyway? John knew he broke that window months before and never fixed it. So if an intruder came in that way the would be no need to break that window!


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As the story goes, FW had been in the basement early on the morning of the 26th supposedly without JRs knowledge. FW claims to have opened the door to the windowless room and did not see anything. BS

That caused some people to think the body was moved closer to the door. There is no evidence of the body being slid closer to the door. There would be marks on the floor just as there were boot prints found in the white crust from mineral deposits on the concrete.

It's possible, and highly likely, that when FW followed JR to the basement, both of them knew exactly where JonBenét's body was located.

JMO

 

[DeeDee249]

As the story goes, FW had been in the basement early on the morning of the 26th supposedly without JRs knowledge. FW claims to have opened the door to the windowless room and did not see anything. BS

That caused some people to think the body was moved closer to the door. There is no evidence of the body being slid closer to the door. There would be marks on the floor just as there were boot prints found in the white crust from mineral deposits on the concrete.

It's possible, and highly likely, that when FW followed JR to the basement, both of them knew exactly where JonBenét's body was located.

JMO

Interesting point. I have considered the possibility that JR had moved the body closer to the door, but the fact that there were no marks on the floor always bothered me. Of course, he could have picked her up- she'd have been in full rigor by the time Arndt discovered him "missing" . The problem with either of these possibilities is that the mold on the concrete floor, which was thick enough to imprint a shoe print, would have certainly shown evidence of pulling her along the floor if she was slid on the blanket, or evidence of JR's footprints as he carried her. There was only that one Hi-Tec shoe print and no other evidence. I know FW could not find the light switch to the WC because it was in an odd place for the room- on the wall opposite the door, lower down on the wall than a standard switch would be. But I assume he'd have been moving around in that basement turning on other lights as he walked or he was holding a flashlight. If he'd shown a flashlight into the room, he should have seen her. Tests were done to see whether someone standing at the doorway to the WC could see a light blanket on the floor inside with NO lights on in the room but with light from the area outside the doorway and police determined that JB should have been seen. That room was L-shaped, and it was said that someone would have had to step INSIDE the room and look to the side in order to see JB. FW did not step inside the room. The only thing I can think of is that FW was looking for evidence of a kidnapping and/or a live child and simply didn't notice the white blanket on the floor with her head and legs sticking out.
That being said, I do not believe FW played any part in either the crime or the coverup. If he KNEW where the body was, it was because JR had told him and then he'd have had to also tell him how she died. He couldn't claim it was an intruder and then proceed to keep silent about the location of the body. I can think of NO reason why FW would have claimed to have looked in that room early that morning and not seen her if that was not the case. Was he expecting JR to come clean with the police about what happened and became increasingly frustrated when JR did not? If FW knew what happened BEFORE he drove BR to his house, I cannot imagine him not speaking to BR about it on the drive over. And I cannot imagine JR allowing BR to be driven, alone, by FW at all if that was the case. As odd as it seems, the only thing that fits for me is that FW just didn't see her. And it doesn't fit all that well.

 

[questfortrue]

Good points. But shouldn't someone's footprints be in there, beyond the print of the Hi-Tec one? Someone originally placed her in the room before she was found. If, e.g., JR's footprints were in there from earlier, he of course would be easily able to explain them, from having gone into the WC when he saw her. Could the blanket have covered up someone else's footprints?

 

[UKGuy]

Good points. But shouldn't someone's footprints be in there, beyond the print of the Hi-Tec one? Someone originally placed her in the room before she was found. If, e.g., JR's footprints were in there from earlier, he of course would be easily able to explain them, from having gone into the WC when he saw her. Could the blanket have covered up someone else's footprints?

questfortrue,
The neatest explanation for FW not seeing JonBenet in the WC is that she was not there. She was hidden somewhere else, and JR moved her into the WC later that morning.

The lack of footprints suggests someone simply reached in and placed JonBenet on the floor.

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[andreww]

As I recall, the white deposits or mold that was on the floor was just a small patch kind of in the centre of the room. So it would be unlikely that anyone would stepped there given the position of the body. However, we have heard that BR owned Hi Teks, and we have heard that he was in there snooping around presents, so it very likely that print had nothing to do with the crime.


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[UKGuy]

As I recall, the white deposits or mold that was on the floor was just a small patch kind of in the centre of the room. So it would be unlikely that anyone would stepped there given the position of the body. However, we have heard that BR owned Hi Teks, and we have heard that he was in there snooping around presents, so it very likely that print had nothing to do with the crime.


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andreww,
Yes thats how I interpret the evidence. I reckon FW thinks JonBenet was not present when he looked into the wine-cellar earlier that morning, this is probably why he returned to double-check despite being told not to.

I think JR dismantled a prior staging in favor of hiding JonBenet away somewhere in the house. Plan A was to simply flee interstate by plane, when this failed he realized he would have to find JonBenet.

JonBenet was likely staged in plain sight either down in the basement or in her own bedroom. JR realized hiding her away would buy more time, and it all worked.

FW after looking twice into the wine-cellar that day, should really have a good handle on what he did or did not see, and if there were room for absolute error, I think he would have said so.

The unknown is where was JonBenet hidden earlier that morning and why would JR decide to relocate her including the pink barbie nightgown to the wine-cellar, just what percentage is there in doing this?

My best guess is she was hidden away somewhere less likely to be as easily discovered as opening a door, i.e. the discovery process had to appear incidental?


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[andreww]

UKGuy, its hard to say because I don't think anybody has had the luxury of actually reading Fleet's statement. I was reading a piece the other day where it was stated that some LE officers didn't believe that Fleet ever opened that door. We have John disappearing for extended periods, latching windows and doing who knows what.

There has always been a lot made of John making a beeline for the basement, but what has been left out is that they were specifically told not to go upstairs. As they'd been on the main level all day, it only makes sense that they would go downstairs. It JRs actions in the basement that leave me skeptical. According to John's testimony they were only in the basement for a minute or less. John led Fleet down the stairs and in to the train room. He told him about the broken window and Fleet begins to look for glass or a sign of entry. Its at this point that John makes a beeline for the WC. He does not check any of the rooms along the way. Passes through the furnace room without checking the freezer. Fleet just hears him yell. So they had gone down their as a team, yet John seizes the first opportunity to separate.

These are the kinds of details that are fact. Indisputable. And these are the pieces of evidence that this case should have been built on.

 

[andreww]

Something else that I find interesting is that it was Fleet White that made the 911 call from the Ramsey home. The responding officer was told the call was made accidentally via the front door intercom, and never entered the home. I don't know about you but I've never accidentally called 911 in my life and I find it very odd that Fleet would make that mistake, especially from a friends home. And to not even open the door to explain it to the responding officer smells of deceit IMO.

 

[otg]

Maybe I’m getting too old to remember, maybe there have been too many conflicting accounts over the years, maybe the truth was never told -- I don’t know. But wasn’t there an account that Ofc. French (or was it Reichenbach) had conducted a search when he first arrived, found the WC door locked or stuck, and then realized that it couldn’t have been a means of escape for the (assumed at that time) kidnapper? It wasn’t until years later that we found out that Fleet White had also searched the basement at some point that morning, shortly after his arrival. That account included that he had looked inside the room, couldn’t find the light switch, called JonBenet’s name, and then moved on. Supposedly, because of a recent incident with his daughter, he thought she might have been hiding somewhere in the house.

Then later, according to John, he had gone down to the basement at some point that morning, rearranged some chairs, saw the open window, closed it, didn’t look in the WC, and didn’t mention anything about it all to any of the BPD who were there.

My question would have to be: Exactly when was the latch locked and when was it not? Who, during their search, unlatched and/or relatched the door? When he “found” her body, did John have to unlatch it in order to open the door? Do investigators know the answers? Where was the chair when French (or Reichenbach) or White went through the basement? Did anyone besides John remember having to move it?

And how about the idea of White getting a bottle of wine from the WC during a party on the 23rd? The Ramseys called that room the "wine cellar", but it wasn’t used for that purpose, by their own statements. I suspect that during the party, any extra wine purchased for it might have been conveniently stored on a table at the bottom of the stairs. They wouldn’t really expect a guest to find and open the door to that room, locate the light switch, and then find a bottle of wine amid all that clutter, would they? That’s assuming the story about White retrieving a bottle of wine from the basement is to be believed at all. Did White ever confirm it?

(How, oh how I wish the Whites would write a book.)

 

[andreww]

Officer French went down first. Not sure whether he noticed the window, but said he saw no obvious sign of entry. He attempted to open the WC door, but it was locked.

Fleet White goes down shortly after he arrives. The window is closed but unlatched. He unlocks the WC door but doesn't see anything in the darkness. He is unsure if he re-locked the door (All of this is second hand because we've never seen an actual statement from Fleet)

John Ramsey says he went down and latched the window.

John and Fleet go down again and examine the window. John bolts for the WC which he says was definitely locked.

 

[questfortrue]

Something else that I find interesting is that it was Fleet White that made the 911 call from the Ramsey home. The responding officer was told the call was made accidentally via the front door intercom, and never entered the home. I don't know about you but I've never accidentally called 911 in my life and I find it very odd that Fleet would make that mistake, especially from a friends home. And to not even open the door to explain it to the responding officer smells of deceit IMO.

It was PR's friend SS who managed to answer through the door that it was an Xmas party and someone dialed 911 by mistake. Later FW said he meant to dial 411 for pharmacy info, to obtain medicine for his mom. But, it seems too coincidental that JB was seen crying on the stairs, humiliated about something. Some think that one or more of the boys may have tried to molest her that night. Some have also speculated that it was FW's daughter who dialed 911 to get help for her friend JB, which may have triggered FW's story about dialing 911 by mistake. If only the police had entered, we might know more. Only one of the 100's of "If only's" in this case

 

[DeeDee249]

Good points. But shouldn't someone's footprints be in there, beyond the print of the Hi-Tec one? Someone originally placed her in the room before she was found. If, e.g., JR's footprints were in there from earlier, he of course would be easily able to explain them, from having gone into the WC when he saw her. Could the blanket have covered up someone else's footprints?

Yes- of course someone's footprints should be there. The prints of whoever laid her in that room. And if she had been dragged along the floor, the Hi-Tec print would also have been smeared. Yet there were NO other prints noted and the Hi-Tec print was untouched. This is a puzzle in and of itself- unless JR (or whoever put her in there) had Hi-Tec shoes on that night, where are THEIR prints?

 

[andreww]

Yes- of course someone's footprints should be there. The prints of whoever laid her in that room. And if she had been dragged along the floor, the Hi-Tec print would also have been smeared. Yet there were NO other prints noted and the Hi-Tec print was untouched. This is a puzzle in and of itself- unless JR (or whoever put her in there) had Hi-Tec shoes on that night, where are THEIR prints?

Again, there was a small patch of mineral deposit in the middle of the room that was receptive to footprints. However, unless someone walked in to the middle of the room, the turned 180 degrees, they wouldn't have stepped in that patch. The room was never cleaned so that HiTek print could have been days, weeks or months old. IMO there is a very high probability that print had nothing to do with the case.


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[UKGuy]

UKGuy, its hard to say because I don't think anybody has had the luxury of actually reading Fleet's statement. I was reading a piece the other day where it was stated that some LE officers didn't believe that Fleet ever opened that door. We have John disappearing for extended periods, latching windows and doing who knows what.

There has always been a lot made of John making a beeline for the basement, but what has been left out is that they were specifically told not to go upstairs. As they'd been on the main level all day, it only makes sense that they would go downstairs. It JRs actions in the basement that leave me skeptical. According to John's testimony they were only in the basement for a minute or less. John led Fleet down the stairs and in to the train room. He told him about the broken window and Fleet begins to look for glass or a sign of entry. Its at this point that John makes a beeline for the WC. He does not check any of the rooms along the way. Passes through the furnace room without checking the freezer. Fleet just hears him yell. So they had gone down their as a team, yet John seizes the first opportunity to separate.

These are the kinds of details that are fact. Indisputable. And these are the pieces of evidence that this case should have been built on.

andreww,
BBM: This is the bit that most people miss. Your daughter is missing presumed kidnapped and what you do is neglect your wife, ferret your son out of the house, and continue to reorganize what might turn out to be vital forensic evidence, why?

That JR heads directly to the wine-cellar tells you everything you want to know. Granting this the case cannot soley be PDI since JR has prior knowledge regarding JonBenet's location.

I reckon that morning JR was systematically deconstructing PR's prior staging since her forensic evidence is all over JonBenet, not JR's.

The case for FW not seeing JonBenet in the wine-cellar appears stronger than seeing her since JR states he saw her immediately, yet JR's eyesight is worse than FW's, this is why JR has a personal flight pilot, i.e. JR got ahead of himself in his dramatic discovery of JonBenet. It could be this that FW went back to check, i.e. what could actually be seen once the door to the wine-cellar was opened?


This latter aspect regarding the Wine-Cellar is something that FW will have definitely related to the investigators.


JonBenet in a state of rigor mortis was portable, especially later that morning, the defining feature of the case is that JonBenet had been kidnapped, so all that mattered was she was not visible to anyone doing a cursory search. This means she may have been secreted away somewhere else in the basement or house.

Consideration of the forensic evidence found on JonBenet suggest it may have arrived on her long after she was dead, e.g. wrist constraints, there was no attempt to make these appear realistic, tape over her mouth; this seems to have been placed there long after she was dead. When you think about it the Tape Over The Mouth is redundant since we now know JonBenet had been whacked on the head so was unconscious. The pink barbie nightgown, which was bloodstained something which alike JonBenet needed to be hidden, its as if placing the gown in the WC was an afterthought? That gown could have been washed and run through a drier, suggesting the person who dumped it did not have the time?

Assuming that there was a prior staging event, then JonBenet likely did not arrive in the wine-cellar immediately after being asphyxiated. She may have been located elsewhere in the basement?


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[midwest mama]

andreww,
BBM: This is the bit that most people miss. Your daughter is missing presumed kidnapped and what you do is neglect your wife, ferret your son out of the house, and continue to reorganize what might turn out to be vital forensic evidence, why?

That JR heads directly to the wine-cellar tells you everything you want to know. Granting this the case cannot soley be PDI since JR has prior knowledge regarding JonBenet's location.

I reckon that morning JR was systematically deconstructing PR's prior staging since her forensic evidence is all over JonBenet, not JR's.

The case for FW not seeing JonBenet in the wine-cellar appears stronger than seeing her since JR states he saw her immediately, yet JR's eyesight is worse than FW's, this is why JR has a personal flight pilot, i.e. JR got ahead of himself in his dramatic discovery of JonBenet. It could be this that FW went back to check, i.e. what could actually be seen once the door to the wine-cellar was opened?


This latter aspect regarding the Wine-Cellar is something that FW will have definitely related to the investigators.


JonBenet in a state of rigor mortis was portable, especially later that morning, the defining feature of the case is that JonBenet had been kidnapped, so all that mattered was she was not visible to anyone doing a cursory search. This means she may have been secreted away somewhere else in the basement or house.

Consideration of the forensic evidence found on JonBenet suggest it may have arrived on her long after she was dead, e.g. wrist constraints, there was no attempt to make these appear realistic, tape over her mouth; this seems to have been placed there long after she was dead. When you think about it the Tape Over The Mouth is redundant since we now know JonBenet had been whacked on the head so was unconscious. The pink barbie nightgown, which was bloodstained something which alike JonBenet needed to be hidden, its as if placing the gown in the WC was an afterthought? That gown could have been washed and run through a drier, suggesting the person who dumped it did not have the time?

Assuming that there was a prior staging event, then JonBenet likely did not arrive in the wine-cellar immediately after being asphyxiated. She may have been located elsewhere in the basement?


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BBM
Indeed, UKGUY, WHY be so distant from your distraught wife and ferret your son away if you think your daughter is missing and away from the house, possibly never to be returned safely now, since the police were called in. You would clutch your remaining child for all he's worth, IMO, especially if he did not know a thing and would necessarily be distraught and in need of parental comforting.

Now, not so fast on PR's forensic evidence being all over JB and not JR's. PR's fibers COULD have gotten in the places we know about by secondary transfer....not probable, granted, but still possible. And remember, investigators told JR that they had evidence the fibers from his special wool shirt were found inside the crotch of those (dang em anyway) size 12 Bloomies. I would say that INSIDE the crotch is not so likely to be through secondary transfer, but in all fairness, I suppose we have to consider it possible. I mean, JR did....he replied: " bull**** " and a few other crass comments when he was questioned about it.

Wasn't it your Shakespeare who penned the line, "methinks thou doest protesteth too loudly"?:notgood:

This is for DeeDee249, who has patiently gone over the liver mortis aspect of JB being moved so many times and some of us still have a hard time grasping: IF JB had been placed in the same position elsewhere in the house, and then somehow put into the wine cellar between the time FW saw nothing and JR "found" her there, wouldn't there have been an additional liver mortis pattern, or would there be no additional patterns seen if she were carefully lifted up and placed down in the same position?