RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[andreww]

Interesting theory, but I really don't think it would have survived this many years of police scrutiny. Somebody would have said something or something would have been found.


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[midwest mama]

Interesting theory, but I really don't think it would have survived this many years of police scrutiny. Somebody would have said something or something would have been found.


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We all want to believe LE would be able to get a handle on child crimes hidden in the bowels of evil. But there are killings and heinous activities that will never be tackled due to the involvement of high powered people.

For anyone wanting to take a closer look at a part of society we can barely pretend to understand, I suggest the book "The Franklin Cover Up" by Senator John DeCamp. Being a Nebraskan, I can attest to the validity of Mr. DeCamp.

 

[andreww]

I think we can all agree that ST went against the grain of what his bosses wanted. If there had been any indication of a child sex ring he would have found something. And surely JB wouldn't have been the only victim. Almost 20 years later you would have expected at least one other victim to come forward.

I do believe there was a coverup from the highest level, but I think the motive was based on politics and money. Probably the R's well connected lawyers had the governor or DA in their back pocket go one reason or another. There would be no other reason why the powers that be would protect these people.


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[elannia]

with regard to otg'spost above....
Thanks for all the links. Sickening and disgusting, unfortunately, doesn't make the reality of this despicable activity go away. Since I started posting in this forum a few years ago, I have gone down a couple of paths looking at the possibility of the R's being involved in pedo ring activity. I realize that my views are among the minority who post here, and I doubt there are many posters who really want to take a hard look at the possibility the R family was involved in high level ring activity. It's not something easy to consider and then begin to digest.

Nonetheless, it's my opinion that the R's could have been key players in a Boulder ring that was hooked into a high profile group with at least national involvement. I believe PR was a victim in her own family as a child, and that NP and DP promoted her into a high level of involvement which flowed over into her being hooked up with JR. I'll take the risk here of saying I believe, after careful reading of JR's writings, that there was something amiss in JR's sexual health sometime during his teen years, and that he became naturally attracted to some perverse behaviors as a young adult while in college. I think it's possible his attraction and marriage to Lucinda had something "dark" hiding below what appeared to be a regular life. With the addition of a mistress, it solidifies the fact that sexual immorality is acceptable to JR. Not a leap for me to believe he used adult females as a cover for what festered inside him -- a desire for young girls.

Once PR crossed his path, she pulled no punches in helping him, through deception, toss aside his current paramour in favor of freeing him for her. They were peas in a pod from the beginning. And I do not believe they met strictly by chance. It seems way too coincidental to me that Don P had all the right connections for JR's business interests, which were compatible to PR's skills and capabilities. PR said she would have to ask her mother before she could accept JR's proposal. I've discovered that in familial pedo/kiddie groups, it's customary for the mothers (or other significant family females) to assume the roles of full responsibility for the young female's complete management: with personal grooming, in relationships, social exposure, family interaction, etc.. And this is how it was with PR and JB as well.

There are too many kinks in the information surrounding JB's death connected to the possibility of her being a victim of pedophile abuse, IMO. Here's a list:

1. eroded hymen, enlarged vaginal opening, repeated medical appointments for vaginitis
2. sexualized presentations in child beauty pageants
3. costuming in beauty pageants with sexual overtones (showgirls & Marilyn Monroe)
4. Randy Simons, her photographer, displayed freakish and distraught behavior, combined with public nudity,
after JB's death.
5. Santa Bill - his delight with JB and the "notches" of dead children in his cane
6. The "cutesy" photographs found in the Ramsey basement.
7. Gold bracelet with 12-25-1996 date when she was 6 years old - an age at which females can be indoctrinated into rings (Connections to Rainbow girls are not unusal for this).
8. JB's reported clinging to PR
9. Urinary and feces dysfunctions
10. Rumors she had told others about people in black robes with candles.
11. "Secret visit" from Santa after Christmas
12. Ripped up letter from Santa found in her trash can
13. Segregated away from playmates on Christmas afternoon under a guise of illness, reported by PR.
(She went for a bike ride later with JR, and no one at the Whites mentioned she was ill later. Was she
kept away from possibly telling playmates about something awry?)
14. Helgoth's apparent suicide. (He knew something, IMO-and I think he was set up)
15. Rod Westmoreland on the road on the 26th to visit his mother (down South) but able to show up at the Ramsey's in Colorado, that early afternoon as soon as he was able to set up the ransom money availabity. (I always thought it strange that him being a family man, no other family member was with him to go along for the visit.)
16. Don Paugh flying standby on the 24th to Atlanta - right after the 911 phone mishap during the Ramsey party on the 23rd. Really, Mr. Paugh making a STANDBY commercial flight to have Christmas with his wife, when he was an important member of company who had 2 private jets available to his son-in-law?

Call me crazy and obsessed, but I just can't overlook all these factors when bunched together.

Who is Helgoth? And I also think its strange DP left on the 24th. Was Nedra in Boulder at that time or not?

 

[elannia]

Off topic here, but I watched an episode on ID about a 30 year old murder case that was finally solved in 2010 because the family decided to push and have the case reopened. If the Ramseys (imo also others in the family knew they were guilty too) were innocent then why are they not pushing to have JB case reopened. Well imo they are guilty and thats the reason. How I wish someone would talk(FW) because obviously this will never see a courtroom.

 

[andreww]

Fleet White is the one guy I don't understand. Obviously he's the only one pushing for justice, and probably has more insight in to this case than any non Ramsey, yet he continues to remain silent. I'd love to see that guy do an honest, no holds barred interview. I get the feeling that if he began to speak publicly, it would put pressure on the DA to revisit this case. Probably the only hope left.


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[elannia]

Fleet White is the one guy I don't understand. Obviously he's the only one pushing for justice, and probably has more insight in to this case than any non Ramsey, yet he continues to remain silent. I'd love to see that guy do an honest, no holds barred interview. I get the feeling that if he began to speak publicly, it would put pressure on the DA to revisit this case. Probably the only hope left.


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Exactly. Someone had posted that if he speaks now he cant use it if it does go to trial. Well um obviously its never going to anyways so I wish he would say something

 

[UKGuy]

Fleet White is the one guy I don't understand. Obviously he's the only one pushing for justice, and probably has more insight in to this case than any non Ramsey, yet he continues to remain silent. I'd love to see that guy do an honest, no holds barred interview. I get the feeling that if he began to speak publicly, it would put pressure on the DA to revisit this case. Probably the only hope left.


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andreww,
FW is constrained legally, if he speaks publicly LW will probably litigate on JR's behalf citing reputational damage etc. Also alike other participants he is unable to recite his statements to BPD etc.

Once JR leaves us I reckon FW will do TV interviews outlining his perspective on the case. JR will be praying to his adopted religous idol that FW leaves before he does?

.

 

[andreww]

Fleet could spell out what he saw as a witness. As long as he doesn't accuse JR of anything, there would be no basis for a lawsuit and people could draw their own conclusions about what he said. From reading his letters, it's obvious he's a smart guy and I'm sure he could draft a statement that would be bulletproof legally. Or maybe he doesn't really know anything and his opinions are all based on the Ramsey's behavior rather than actual evidence.

Nonetheless I sure would like to hear his story about the discovery of the body. From JRs testimony he led Fleet to the train room looking for things out of place. As soon as Fleet turned his back, JR had found her in the opposite end of the basement, a hallway and two rooms away. They were down there less than a minute! How did that happen? He made a beeline for that WC as soon as Fleet was distracted looking for glass. And why look for glass anyway? John knew he broke that window months before and never fixed it. So if an intruder came in that way the would be no need to break that window!


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[questfortrue]

Fleet could spell out what he saw as a witness. As long as he doesn't accuse JR of anything, there would be no basis for a lawsuit and people could draw their own conclusions about what he said. From reading his letters, it's obvious he's a smart guy and I'm sure he could draft a statement that would be bulletproof legally. Or maybe he doesn't really know anything and his opinions are all based on the Ramsey's behavior rather than actual evidence.

~RSBM~

FW most likely knows that this case will not go to court. However, by law he cannot reveal any information he provided to the GJ. In a sense, like LHP, he’s silenced.

Also, according to litigation attorneys I know, there is no such thing as a bullet-proof statement or interview. There is noted misbehavior on the part of some authorities in Boulder. If FW were sued, do you think Boulder or even Colorado officials would permit a change of venue to try the lawsuit? I don’t believe they’d allow that. Boulder has certain people to protect.

Imho, FW has more than one goal beyond what we see as obvious, iow what clues did FW see. IDK what’s in his mind, but if it were me, I ’d like 1) to know what other charges were presented to the GJ. Interestingly the only information “subtly” dropped by Judge Lowenbach re the other charges pertained to JB’s sexual abuse. 2) to understand how Krebs statements came to pass, and 3) to focus a public light on the Boulder authorities’ role in this. How, as Prendergast phrased it, “An Indictment became an ‘exoneration.”
moo

 

[lawstudent]

~RSBM~

FW most likely knows that this case will not go to court. However, by law he cannot reveal any information he provided to the GJ. In a sense, like LHP, he’s silenced.

He can't talk about what went on at the grand jury proceedings, in terms of "I told them this" or "I heard that." But he is able to talk about anything he knows outside of that, as far as I know. So he could tell everything he told the GJ, but just not say that he testified about it or mention the GJ in any way. So I don't get why he won't speak - I'd think fear of being pulled back into a media firestorm/being sued may be it. If I wasn't 100% sure of what went on, I'd be hesitant to start opening my mouth in this mess, even if I had strong suspicions and wanted to clear some things up.

Also, according to litigation attorneys I know, there is no such thing as a bullet-proof statement or interview. There is noted misbehavior on the part of some authorities in Boulder. If FW were sued, do you think Boulder or even Colorado officials would permit a change of venue to try the lawsuit? I don’t believe they’d allow that. Boulder has certain people to protect.

Yeah, nothing is bullet-proof - anyone can sue over anything if they so choose. There's always some legal argument that can be tailored to the scenario. Doesn't mean it goes anywhere, but it can still cost time and money and stress. But FW would almost certainly win if he talked about things he actually saw and knew. It probably wouldn't even move forward. If he went around saying the Ramseys were killers, than yeah, he might be in trouble in a defamation suit. But he could give some comment on the events he was present for.

 

[DeeDee249]

As we know, FW and his entire family suffered irreparable damage from being implicated in this case by the Rs. Their attempts to have ALL the GJ documents released failed, as we know also. The Rs picked up right away that FW knew something wasn't right- his "hinky meter" went off that first day. His confrontation with JR at JR's brother's home fractured the friendship forever and to be sure FW never told what he knew or suspected, the threat was held over him that perhaps HE (or his wife) had committed this crime. Patsy began to hint at PW's involvement right away- telling police that PW had a similar fleece jacket. (after police questioned Patsy about whether she had worn her fleece sweater/jacket in the basement or while painting). Patsy even went so far as to suggest that possibly she had grabbed the wrong jacket that night (insinuating that PW had Patsy's jacket- the source of the fibers in the paint tote and cord and on the duct tape). Both Rs also told police how "odd" it was that PW told them she had kept aside a plate of JB's favorite cracked crab that day so JB would be sure to have some. Of course, they never mentioned that THEY were the ones who asked PW to save JB some crab, as she was too busy playing with their daughter that day to eat any at the party.

 

[questfortrue]

I don’t disagree with the factual point that FW could discuss what he knows, as long as he is not stating that the information also is comprised within his GJ testimony. (The Colorado Supreme Court has explicitly referred to this distinction in discussing Rule 6.2: "Grand jury secrecy is intended only to prevent disclosure of what transpires or will transpire before the grand jury." State v. Rickard, 761 P.2d 188, 192 (Colo.1988).)

But here’s my takeaway on this. On numerous occasions FW has been rebuffed in efforts to obtain the entire Krebs file information which was used to create disgusting innuendo against his family. He also has pushed for information contained in the other pages of the indictment, charges which, iirc, were not voted up or down. Is that info important to him for motives we can only speculate about? Maybe. Strictly my opinion, but it looks as though FW is dedicated to unravelling ‘misdeeds’ behind the scenes for a reason. Some of us believe there were “favors” among Boulder’s incestuous legal community. None of us know, of course, but has FW been attempting to build some legal insulation for himself before anything is revealed in public? moo


Doesn't matter how good your bullets are if you don't aim carefully.
― Brandon Sanderson, The Alloy of Law

 

[midwest mama]

Who is Helgoth? And I also think its strange DP left on the 24th. Was Nedra in Boulder at that time or not?

Best to just google "michael helgoth jonbenet". Nedra was in Atlanta that year for Christmas.

 

[madeleine]

I never understood what was the point of the Krebs saga..imo it was not something against FW 100%...cause she was throwing JR under the bus as well....IMO it was just attention seeking and a little mental issue...
moo

 

[questfortrue]

I never understood what was the point of the Krebs saga..imo it was not something against FW 100%...cause she was throwing JR under the bus as well....IMO it was just attention seeking and a little mental issue...
moo

All true as pertains to Krebs.

IMO, the Krebs story was part of a misdirection straw grabbed to divert attention.

The story was that around February 2000 Krebs calls Lee Hill, former CO attorney (He was disbarred) after she sees him on TV representing a client who claimed JR and the tabloids had defamed him. That case was dismissed, but Krebs allegedly latched onto Hill. Hill releases her story to the Daily Camera. Daily Camera contacts AH. It sounds as though AH talks to them about FW, not discussing JR, which is why the story grew legs about FW.

Kane and another attorney call AH out on this phony story, like, “What the h**l are you doing?”

The question is not why a newspaper would run with this, but why would AH? Wait a minute.
The Krebs saga was in the year 2000 after AH was accused by ST of not approving of the investigators request to obtain warrants for phone and credit card records; after granting the family an island of privacy for medical records, as the R lawyers requested; and after AH hid the indictment in the office safe. Later in 2000, having accomplished all he can for this case ( ), AH gives LW a letter saying no evidence had been developed implicating BR.

Hmm, just speculating here, there's a reason(s) some people believe AH planned not to prosecute this case.

JMHO

 

[Chelly]

All true as pertains to Krebs.

IMO, the Krebs story was part of a misdirection straw grabbed to divert attention.

The story was that around February 2000 Krebs calls Lee Hill, former CO attorney (He was disbarred) after she sees him on TV representing a client who claimed JR and the tabloids had defamed him. That case was dismissed, but Krebs allegedly latched onto Hill. Hill releases her story to the Daily Camera. Daily Camera contacts AH. It sounds as though AH talks to them about FW, not discussing JR, which is why the story grew legs about FW.

Kane and another attorney call AH out on this phony story, like, “What the h**l are you doing?”

The question is not why a newspaper would run with this, but why would AH? Wait a minute.
The Krebs saga was in the year 2000 after AH was accused by ST of not approving of the investigators request to obtain warrants for phone and credit card records; after granting the family an island of privacy for medical records, as the R lawyers requested; and after AH hid the indictment in the office safe. Later in 2000, having accomplished all he can for this case ( ), AH gives LW a letter saying no evidence had been developed implicating BR.

Hmm, just speculating here, there's a reason(s) some people believe AH planned not to prosecute this case.

JMHO

BBM Here are some reasons: Money, Politics, Power and Corruption.
Oh yeah.....imo.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM Here are some reasons: Money, Politics, Power and Corruption.
Oh yeah.....imo.

Chelly,
Those factors definitely played a role, what has never gone away is the possibility of a pedophile ring operating at the R's social level.

IMO,

AH gives LW a letter saying no evidence had been developed implicating BR.

This is the important bit.

As we now know no evidence had been developed does not actually mean an absence of evidence just that we have not checked it out!

BDI rears it unwelcome head again.


.

 

[questfortrue]

~RSBM~

BDI rears it unwelcome head again.

UKGuy,
Based on something you once envisioned, the conversation between JR and PR regarding the spot PR was placed in regards the size 12 panties, I’ve recently been thinking about what JR might have said to BR that late evening/early morning. I’ve never believed JR didn’t have a talk with BR. You may have a better dialogue in mind, but here is my submission for an imagined conversation. Goes something like that Youtube clip otg posted from Ruthless People:

Father: OK, son, open your eyes. Don’t play dumb with your father. You can go back to sleep later.
Son: OK.
Father: You know what happened. We all know what happened. We’re going to talk about this later. You may never say a word about last night and what happened to your sister. Someone asks you, just say someone took her, hit her on the head or stabbed her or something. Do you understand?
Son: Yes.
Father: Even when you are older, tell no one. Dreams of airplanes, sailing, more advanced Nintendo sets, all vanish if you tell. Any infractions of this instruction will mean severe actions. Do you understand?
Son: What’s “infractions”?
Father: Tell someone about last night and we take away your Nintendo. Do you understand?
Son: Yessir!

moo

.

 

[ukrberserker23]

I made a post a couple of months ago about a Fatcats Pedophile Network in Denver. I never found any direct evidence of a ring in Boulder. I also wrote to the Masonic lodges in Boulder to ask them if JR was a member. Never got an answer. Most successful businessmen are members of fraternal orders. AF&AM, Eagles, Rotary club, Eastern Star, Shriner's, etc. These are mutual aid societies, and do cover for other members. College fraternities are Masonic in origin. JR and JAR were both members of fraternities. AH and JR could have been lodge brothers. Never was able to find out. My family is Masonic, but I refuse to join.