RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[midwest mama]

Right, and also for him to be whisked away without asking questions(especially about the trip they were supposed to have already left for, according to PR, BR came over to her as he was leaving and they hugged(something to that effect, dont remember her words), but I don't believe he mentioned anything about why they werent going on the trip, and imo, he knew exactly why

Of course by the time BR went to his mother before he was taken out of the house, JR had reportedly told him in his room while he and FW were readying him, that JB was missing. A 9 yr old would have enough sense not to question his emotionally mushed up mother about why they weren't leaving for the trip....especially since the time to leave had already come and gone. Later, BR did comment that he would miss being able to be in Michigan and lighting a fire in the fireplace.

No doubt in my mind that we can find reason to believe what Kolar brought to light in his book about Burke's possible sexual personality disorder. And I believe that BR, and maybe other young male Ramsey friends had been exploring JB sexually, but if BR did bash JB in the head, that is the extent of his involvement with the crime. IMO, he was sequestered away (probably in his bedroom), except for possibly commenting at the end of the 911 call, until he left with FW and and JF.

 

[questfortrue]

I feel BR was involved in the sexual assault and head bash. ~RSBM~

It's really the only conclusion one can take from Kolar's book. It's too bad we're not privy to seeing that 20-page document Kolar developed and sent to Garnett in developing a theory of prosecution. Kolar explained why he was not more specific about certain details in his book: I found the totality of the circumstances comprising the investigative theory to be rather disquieting , and too disturbing, in my opinion, to express in a public forum. . . .~snip~ . . . I realize that this situation is probably a little frustrating to the reader, but the foundation for this theory is interspersed throughout this manuscript and I will have to leave it to your imagination for the moment. Kolar FF

It doesn’t have to be spelled out, to understand what's in his theory of prosecution though. Imo, emotions had been building for some time. But in the month of December, there were the additional clues – a call to Dr. Beuf’s office 3 times after hours on the 17th, a 911 call and JB seen sitting humiliated and crying at the Christmas party, not to mention school reports about JB being extra-clingy to PR.

One wonders how PR or JR handled the fact that 911 had been called during their annual Christmas party, and if someone in the household might have borne the blame for something that occurred. Many in the past have pointed to the R family pattern of shifting blame onto someone else, a pattern of victim-thinking, and the most prominent display of such behavior is portrayed by JR. It was truly disgusting (moo) when he claimed that they chose December 25th for the date of JB’s death so the world would remember what it did to JB. Very visible also is JR’s unconcealed anger against the media, not the killer. Lastly, I recall the almost laughable excuse for his affair in his first marriage - the 2-year affair had to be that Fatal-Attraction-like woman’s fault.

Pretty apparent that the Rs pointed the blame everywhere outside the family, towards the media, their friends, even upon an old debilitated Santa. Maybe it’s me, but BR’s nonchalance after the death of his sister, which has always bothered me, ‘feels’ like blame-shifting behavior he would have learned somewhere.

Whatever was the trigger that Dec. 25th night, someone unleashed their frustration and ire on JB. And I’ve never believed that everyone in the home didn’t hear the bloodcurdling scream.
mho

 

[questfortrue]

Here I was inspired by Meara’s reference in evaluating the bell curve for R responses out of the norm and decided to examine a few points of possible deception, as DeeDee249 mentioned in a recent post.

This is only what occurred to me on the fly, and maybe other RDI would have better (in the sense of tragi-satirical) explanations. My responses in italics are suggested reasons for behavior which might alter such a bell curve.

2.5 page ransom note
Kidnapper was a frustrated playwright and had read too many crime novels, watched too many movies.

911 call in spite of warnings in RN
Call the cops, but what about mentioning to be discrete? Oh, hush everyone, quiet, "POLICE!!"

Voice of a young child
Must have left the TV set on. BR was asleep.

Friends called over in spite of RN warnings.
Friends needed to reassure, rearrange the house a little, and let the cops know the family is loved, respected and innocent!

Not comforting one another on morning of kidnapping
PR did not believe JR was too worried, he was "cordial”.
JR thought PR overreacted to the policeman in a uniform and gun.

No one was worried the kidnapper didn't call.
He must not have the 25 cents for the call or he lost our number? Or he meant he’d call on Friday, though he forgot he left her body in the basement which would mean a significant decay process and odor. Stoopid kidnapper.

No entry into locked house
No footprints in frost by basement window, none by JB's balcony. This is a puzzler. There are only 80 keys we’ve given out in the community. Maybe one of those folks is the killer.

No fingerprints on RN
What to say?

No one knows anything about pineapple in home. BR said he never ate any.
Kidnapper brought his own and used the family good silver.

Prior sa injuries no adult had any idea existed.
This is total news. Who knew? Not their physician and PR/JR never read autopsy report. Yet somehow they knew there were no prior injuries. Their press release even stated that there were no prior injuries.

No one heard anything.
One melatonin and it puts JR in a Propofol-like sleep.

Bloomies panties came from new package PR had purchased in NY.
Kidnapper forgot to check upstairs for clean panties, after he/she molested her. So what if those Bloomies were a little big; just got lucky as there was a package found in the basement.

Arranging to fly out to Atlanta within one half hour of finding JB's body
Simple explanation to detective: "Important business meeting"


__________
My posts are my opinion, protected under the Freedom of Speech Amendment

 

[UKGuy]

Of course by the time BR went to his mother before he was taken out of the house, JR had reportedly told him in his room while he and FW were readying him, that JB was missing. A 9 yr old would have enough sense not to question his emotionally mushed up mother about why they weren't leaving for the trip....especially since the time to leave had already come and gone. Later, BR did comment that he would miss being able to be in Michigan and lighting a fire in the fireplace.

No doubt in my mind that we can find reason to believe what Kolar brought to light in his book about Burke's possible sexual personality disorder. And I believe that BR, and maybe other young male Ramsey friends had been exploring JB sexually, but if BR did bash JB in the head, that is the extent of his involvement with the crime. IMO, he was sequestered away (probably in his bedroom), except for possibly commenting at the end of the 911 call, until he left with FW and and JF.

midwest mama,
The removal of BR is one of the least explored episodes of the JonBenet case. The bed making is bizarre given the context, i.e. who cares about an unmade bed when your sister is missing, suspected kidnapped?

What was FW and JF's role here, it has never been disclosed what JR proposed to them, what was the rationale for removing BR from a crime-scene?

Your thesis that BR and others were sexually exploring JonBenet is I reckon 100% correct, enter left, Susan Stine, this is the likely cause for JonBenet's assault, i.e. one that failed at her Christmas Party, or an attempt to restablish percieved control between BR and JonBenet, which went horribly wrong!

With Beckner confirming that JonBenet was assaulted with the paintbrush, i.e. a broken piece, which given the sequence of events, arrives after the head bash, and prior to her asphyxiation, this allows the assumption that the latter is staging for some prior event, otherwise why bother?

 

[DeeDee249]

There is also the possibility that FW simply made the bed while he was waiting for BR to get dressed. He may have done it just to keep occupied while he was waiting. There may be nothing ominous about it, and keeping occam's razor in mind, that may be all there is to it.

 

[UKGuy]

There is also the possibility that FW simply made the bed while he was waiting for BR to get dressed. He may have done it just to keep occupied while he was waiting. There may be nothing ominous about it, and keeping occam's razor in mind, that may be all there is to it.

DeeDee249,
ITA. Thats my point, nothing ominous about it just FW's sense of keeping order etc, yet JonBenet is missing, really deposited in the wine-cellar, and FW has housekeeping on his mind, so what did JR say to affect his state of mind?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
ITA. Thats my point, nothing ominous about it just FW's sense of keeping order etc, yet JonBenet is missing, really deposited in the wine-cellar, and FW has housekeeping on his mind, so what did JR say to affect his state of mind?

.

I don't think FW had housekeeping on his mind. I think he was just killing time waiting for BR to get ready to leave. We have no way of knowing what JR may have said to FW that morning, but I bet he didn't say "please make BR's bed".

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think FW had housekeeping on his mind. I think he was just killing time waiting for BR to get ready to leave. We have no way of knowing what JR may have said to FW that morning, but I bet he didn't say "please make BR's bed".

DeeDee249,
Touche, but I'll bet they never said lets make JonBenet's bed? JR did make a proposition to both JF and FW indistinct from our understanding of events! Otherwise why would BR end up removed, or relocated from the Ramsey household, this is lacuna in all of the R's protestations.

.

 

[andreww]

I don't think FW had housekeeping on his mind. I think he was just killing time waiting for BR to get ready to leave. We have no way of knowing what JR may have said to FW that morning, but I bet he didn't say "please make BR's bed".

Fleet was a Navy man. I'm sure it would be difficult for him to leave a room with an unmade bed. Some things are just engrained.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Touche, but I'll bet they never said lets make JonBenet's bed? JR did make a proposition to both JF and FW indistinct from our understanding of events! Otherwise why would BR end up removed, or relocated from the Ramsey household, this is lacuna in all of the R's protestations.

.

Like so much of what occurred in the house, we have no way of knowing what was said by whom and to whom. Because of what we actually DO know about that morning-namely that FW drove BR over to his house that morning to stay with his own kids and some relatives who were visiting for the Holidays, after which FW returned to the R home, where his wife was- we can assume JR made the decision to ensure that BR was NOT in the house. He likely asked FW to take him, as opposed to it being FW's idea. As we have discussed, there was probably a dual reason for this. First, it ensured that BR was not available for police to question him about what he may have seen or heard (especially before his parents could tell him what to say or not to say) and second, it was so be sure he would not be there to see his sister's dead body had she been "found" while he was there. Whatever BR's involvement, I have always believed he did not play any part in the staging of the crime, the redressing of the body, etc. Looking at a dying or just-dead JB would have been a very different experience from looking at the corpse of a child that had been dead for 12 hours. Rigor mortis, livor mortis, and what we have only partially glimpsed in the few autopsy photos cannot convey the sheer horror of looking at that dead little face with the cords dangling from her neck. I can't say I blame JR for wanting his son out of the house.

 

[elannia]

Reading up on some material from Boulder, and interesting to note that in the Sid Wells case when police finally went to the suspect's parents home, he asked them what took them so long, DA, AH decided not to take to trial because of LE mishandling evidence. Apparently this was the case with the JB case. SC's murder was solved 12 years later, why in the bleep cant JB's!!!

 

[DeeDee249]

Reading up on some material from Boulder, and interesting to note that in the Sid Wells case when police finally went to the suspect's parents home, he asked them what took them so long, DA, AH decided not to take to trial because of LE mishandling evidence. Apparently this was the case with the JB case. SC's murder was solved 12 years later, why in the bleep cant JB's!!!

Because the case is already solved. They just can't admit it publicly because of Colorado's child protection laws. As far as charges that COULD have been filed against the parents (for obstruction, etc as named in the GJ indictments) as well as any misconduct charges against the DA (for lying about the charges to the public as well as official misconduct (such as maintaining personal and business relationships with the defense attorneys) - well, that would require a DA with a spine- and there hasn't been one in Boulder since.

 

[Meara]

Here I was inspired by Meara’s reference in evaluating the bell curve for R responses out of the norm and decided to examine a few points of possible deception, as DeeDee249 mentioned in a recent post.

This is only what occurred to me on the fly, and maybe other RDI would have better (in the sense of tragi-satirical) explanations. My responses in italics are suggested reasons for behavior which might alter such a bell curve.

2.5 page ransom note
Kidnapper was a frustrated playwright and had read too many crime novels, watched too many movies.

911 call in spite of warnings in RN
Call the cops, but what about mentioning to be discrete? Oh, hush everyone, quiet, "POLICE!!"

Voice of a young child
Must have left the TV set on. BR was asleep.

Friends called over in spite of RN warnings.
Friends needed to reassure, rearrange the house a little, and let the cops know the family is loved, respected and innocent!

Not comforting one another on morning of kidnapping
PR did not believe JR was too worried, he was "cordial”.
JR thought PR overreacted to the policeman in a uniform and gun.

No one was worried the kidnapper didn't call.
He must not have the 25 cents for the call or he lost our number? Or he meant he’d call on Friday, though he forgot he left her body in the basement which would mean a significant decay process and odor. Stoopid kidnapper.

No entry into locked house
No footprints in frost by basement window, none by JB's balcony. This is a puzzler. There are only 80 keys we’ve given out in the community. Maybe one of those folks is the killer.

No fingerprints on RN
What to say?

No one knows anything about pineapple in home. BR said he never ate any.
Kidnapper brought his own and used the family good silver.

Prior sa injuries no adult had any idea existed.
This is total news. Who knew? Not their physician and PR/JR never read autopsy report. Yet somehow they knew there were no prior injuries. Their press release even stated that there were no prior injuries.

No one heard anything.
One melatonin and it puts JR in a Propofol-like sleep.

Bloomies panties came from new package PR had purchased in NY.
Kidnapper forgot to check upstairs for clean panties, after he/she molested her. So what if those Bloomies were a little big; just got lucky as there was a package found in the basement.

Arranging to fly out to Atlanta within one half hour of finding JB's body
Simple explanation to detective: "Important business meeting"


__________
My posts are my opinion, protected under the Freedom of Speech Amendment

:waitasec: Haha! Love the frustrated playwright/puzzler/80 keys, qft! Also " tragi-satirical". I had a similar impulse when thinking about the bell curve but much snarkier ....sort of a Disconnect the Dots theory of the crime.

John and Patsy had conflicting, changing stories about events between the time they arrived home and the time they went to bed - especially events involving JonBenet - but that's not significant in the context of the overall narrative. After all, they agreed on a lot of details about events just before and after that time period.

When a child from a caring family dies suddenly and violently, the family members typically relive and talk about the last time they saw her alive - what she did, how she looked, her mood, what they said to each other, whether they hugged or kissed. That the Ramseys couldn't even agree on whether JonBenet was awake or asleep just means their memories worked differently from most people's.

The FBI predicted that JonBenet would be found dead rather than kidnapped, but the fact that no kidnappers called, and she really was found dead in the basement of her home only a few hours later, is probably just a coincidence.

The Ramsey's asked Pam Paugh to gather things they needed from the house and, even though it was the middle of winter, John specifically asked for his golf clubs and bag. It's silly to think he might have been trying to remove incriminating evidence this way. Lots of wealthy people pack more than they need.

It looks very suspicious that John tried to leave Boulder on his private jet right after he brought JonBenet's body up from the basement. Although he and Patsy had planned a family trip to Charlevoix on that day, his explanation that he had to attend an important meeting in Atlanta makes sense when you really think about it.

:fishy:

 

[elannia]

Because the case is already solved. They just can't admit it publicly because of Colorado's child protection laws. As far as charges that COULD have been filed against the parents (for obstruction, etc as named in the GJ indictments) as well as any misconduct charges against the DA (for lying about the charges to the public as well as official misconduct (such as maintaining personal and business relationships with the defense attorneys) - well, that would require a DA with a spine- and there hasn't been one in Boulder since.

True. BR cannot be held accountable for the death of JB, even if he only did the head bash, it would have been fatal. I wonder if AH knew and he was told by some others to leave it alone, etc, and was maybe scared. I just cannot imagine why in the world he would lie that day after the indictment, that no charges would be filed. He could not mention BR, but he could have told the indictments against the parents. I think there was a whole lotta people in the cover of of JB's murder

 

[dogperson]

Even if JR truly had a business meeting planned, who could even think of such a thing at a time like that? If my child really were killed, I would want to stay in town and demand everything possible be done. I would also volunteer to be questioned and take a lie detector immediately so LE could rule me out right away and get on with finding the real killer. What did everybody do when the ransom call time came and went? Did anybody say anything? Not even LE?

 

[andreww]

Even if JR truly had a business meeting planned, who could even think of such a thing at a time like that? If my child really were killed, I would want to stay in town and demand everything possible be done. I would also volunteer to be questioned and take a lie detector immediately so LE could rule me out right away and get on with finding the real killer. What did everybody do when the ransom call time came and went? Did anybody say anything? Not even LE?

Linda Arndt noticed that the deadline came and went without notice from the Ramseys. They had other things on their minds I guess.

 

[questfortrue]

:waitasec: Haha! Love the frustrated playwright/puzzler/80 keys, qft! Also " tragi-satirical". I had a similar impulse when thinking about the bell curve but much snarkier ....sort of a Disconnect the Dots theory of the crime.

John and Patsy had conflicting, changing stories about events between the time they arrived home and the time they went to bed - especially events involving JonBenet - but that's not significant in the context of the overall narrative. After all, they agreed on a lot of details about events just before and after that time period.

When a child from a caring family dies suddenly and violently, the family members typically relive and talk about the last time they saw her alive - what she did, how she looked, her mood, what they said to each other, whether they hugged or kissed. That the Ramseys couldn't even agree on whether JonBenet was awake or asleep just means their memories worked differently from most people's.

The FBI predicted that JonBenet would be found dead rather than kidnapped, but the fact that no kidnappers called, and she really was found dead in the basement of her home only a few hours later, is probably just a coincidence.

The Ramsey's asked Pam Paugh to gather things they needed from the house and, even though it was the middle of winter, John specifically asked for his golf clubs and bag. It's silly to think he might have been trying to remove incriminating evidence this way. Lots of wealthy people pack more than they need.

It looks very suspicious that John tried to leave Boulder on his private jet right after he brought JonBenet's body up from the basement. Although he and Patsy had planned a family trip to Charlevoix on that day, his explanation that he had to attend an important meeting in Atlanta makes sense when you really think about it.

:fishy:

Excellent suggestions, Meara!

On a side note, I was reading some info about the Casey Anthony court statements and came across an interesting comment pertinent to JBs’ parents’ actions. As most recall, the Anthony case took a different turn when Casey claimed that her father left the ladder to the pool down and Caylee drowned. They then decided to hide her body and claim she’d been taken by someone.

When the medical examiner took the stand, she was asked why she believed Caylee’s death was a homicide, not an accident. The ME said in an unequivocal manner, that the child’s mouth and nose were covered in duct tape. That doesn’t happen in an accident. Moreover, the ME claimed that in cases of accidents like drowning, in 100% of the cases she’s seen, parents call 911 to see if the child can be saved. She said even if the child is cold and stiff, they call 911. 100% of the time they call 911.

There was an editor of a small newspaper in Western Colorado who was incredulous that the parents did not find JonBenet in the home. That might mean that they took the RN seriously and didn’t really look for her in the home? But wait, no one was worried that the kidnapper did not call. Wait, no one was concerned about BR being sent away, without a bodyguard.
I second your :fishy:

_________
My posts are my opinion, protected under the Freedom of Speech Amendment.

 

[DeeDee249]

Excellent suggestions, Meara!

On a side note, I was reading some info about the Casey Anthony court statements and came across an interesting comment pertinent to JBs’ parents’ actions. As most recall, the Anthony case took a different turn when Casey claimed that her father left the ladder to the pool down and Caylee drowned. They then decided to hide her body and claim she’d been taken by someone.

When the medical examiner took the stand, she was asked why she believed Caylee’s death was a homicide, not an accident. The ME said in an unequivocal manner, that the child’s mouth and nose were covered in duct tape. That doesn’t happen in an accident. Moreover, the ME claimed that in cases of accidents like drowning, in 100% of the cases she’s seen, parents call 911 to see if the child can be saved. She said even if the child is cold and stiff, they call 911. 100% of the time they call 911.

There was an editor of a small newspaper in Western Colorado who was incredulous that the parents did not find JonBenet in the home. That might mean that they took the RN seriously and didn’t really look for her in the home? But wait, no one was worried that the kidnapper did not call. Wait, no one was concerned about BR being sent away, without a bodyguard.
I second your :fishy:

_________
My posts are my opinion, protected under the Freedom of Speech Amendment.

But the parents DID find JB in the home, so I don't know why that newspaper would have made that comment. As far as JR's seemingly-out-of-nowhere "business trip to Atlanta"- I wonder why he wasn't asked how he was able to plan that trip when he already planned a double vacation with his family? Charlevoix was HIS idea- Patsy didn't want to go. Then, right after, they had the Disney cruise, where Patsy's 40th birthday would be celebrated. There was NO way JR "forgot" about a business trip he needed to take. And at a time like THAT? Who would expect him to show up at a business meeting immediately after finding his murdered child's body in their own home? I'm not buying the "business trip" nonsense at all. He wanted to ESCAPE. That's all.

 

[questfortrue]

But the parents DID find JB in the home, so I don't know why that newspaper would have made that comment. As far as JR's seemingly-out-of-nowhere "business trip to Atlanta"- I wonder why he wasn't asked how he was able to plan that trip when he already planned a double vacation with his family? Charlevoix was HIS idea- Patsy didn't want to go. Then, right after, they had the Disney cruise, where Patsy's 40th birthday would be celebrated. There was NO way JR "forgot" about a business trip he needed to take. And at a time like THAT? Who would expect him to show up at a business meeting immediately after finding his murdered child's body in their own home? I'm not buying the "business trip" nonsense at all. He wanted to ESCAPE. That's all.

(Just spoofing R excuses-Post 1095).

No, it was sarcasm on the part of the editor. http://westernslopewatchdog.com/2013/10/editorial-i-know-who-killed-jonbenet-ramsey/ From the article:

Let’s try to figure this out. The Ramseys say it was an intruder, but Patsy Ramsey wrote a note indicating that someone was trying to get ransom for JonBenet, who lay dead in their basement while this writing was going on. They couldn’t find their own daughter in their own house? (sarcastic astonishment)

John supposedly came upon the scene by accident. By this time, Burke (the older brother) was hiding in his room and claiming he heard nothing.

If you believe that someone came into the Ramsey household (no footsteps in the snow), and killed the only girl in the house instead of everybody and then left, leaving no evidence, then you are a fool.

The editor was also amazed that the Boulder authorities became involved in the cover-up.

No disagreement here, they wanted to escape.

 

[Meara]

Excellent suggestions, Meara!

On a side note, I was reading some info about the Casey Anthony court statements and came across an interesting comment pertinent to JBs’ parents’ actions. As most recall, the Anthony case took a different turn when Casey claimed that her father left the ladder to the pool down and Caylee drowned. They then decided to hide her body and claim she’d been taken by someone.

When the medical examiner took the stand, she was asked why she believed Caylee’s death was a homicide, not an accident. The ME said in an unequivocal manner, that the child’s mouth and nose were covered in duct tape. That doesn’t happen in an accident. Moreover, the ME claimed that in cases of accidents like drowning, in 100% of the cases she’s seen, parents call 911 to see if the child can be saved. She said even if the child is cold and stiff, they call 911. 100% of the time they call 911.

There was an editor of a small newspaper in Western Colorado who was incredulous that the parents did not find JonBenet in the home. That might mean that they took the RN seriously and didn’t really look for her in the home? But wait, no one was worried that the kidnapper did not call. Wait, no one was concerned about BR being sent away, without a bodyguard.
I second your :fishy:

_________
My posts are my opinion, protected under the Freedom of Speech Amendment.

Thanks, qft. The story from the Casey Anthony case is dumbfounding. It's hard to believe it happened. And, all these years later I feel for that editor as he grappled with the contradictions that began in the earliest moments of the case. If this, then that, but wait....but wait....but wait....