RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[dazeerae]

The crawl space wasn't searched that I'm aware of. There were also a couple of large closets IIRC.

If I were the killer, and didn't want her found, I'd have hidden her in the crawl space until I could dispose of her. OR until I decided that for whatever reason, I couldn't dispose of her, and would have to "find" her.

Anywhere else in the basement would have already been searched, and far too obvious. The WC was the logical place to "relocate" her since the light switch was so hard to find and there were no windows for outside light.

:dunno:

The crawl space! Yes, this makes sense. I hadn't even thought of the crawl space. I think it's possible her body was in the wine cellar & FW didn't see it, but there must be some reason for JR's hour long disappearance during the morning of his daughter's "kidnapping." Just seems like it would have been easier to let the body lay wherever it was until LE found her remains..maybe the cops would have eventually left before finding her & the body could have been "found" later by the Rs, killed because they talked to a "stray dog." Something seemed to fuel JR to expose the body rather than continue with the kidnapping ruse.

 

[Nom de plume]

The crawl space! Yes, this makes sense. I hadn't even thought of the crawl space. I think it's possible her body was in the wine cellar & FW didn't see it, but there must be some reason for JR's hour long disappearance during the morning of his daughter's "kidnapping." Just seems like it would have been easier to let the body lay wherever it was until LE found her remains..maybe the cops would have eventually left before finding her & the body could have been "found" later by the Rs, killed because they talked to a "stray dog." Something seemed to fuel JR to expose the body rather than continue with the kidnapping ruse.

I think you may be on to something here. It's been discussed, ad nauseam, that the Rs could never have been stupid enough to believe LE would just leave after the call for ransom did not come in at the specified time. I have to agree, no way were they that stupid.

BUT....eventually they would leave. Maybe late the night of the 26th, or sometime during the day of the 27th. Probably the 27th in case it was the "tomorrow" referred to in the RN. They weren't going to be there forever. I think that "tomorrow" was a huge mistake in the RN, and that's possibly what threw the plan off.

I do think it's entirely possible that they were going to wait it out, then "find" her where the SFF returned her dead for ignoring their warnings. There were so many warnings, and PR ignored every single one. Accident? Coincidence? Couldn't be. I've never heard of a single parent (other than PR) that called friends over right away. Sure in other cases friends & family do show up, but only because they've heard it through the grape vine, not because the parents called them over. Had this plan worked, it would have given JR & PR even more fuel to fan the "victim" fires.

A stupid plan, yes, but let's face it, their options were somewhat limited. I suspect that window being open had something to do with this. (Keep her cold so decomp did not advance so quickly.) If she were in the crawl space it would be pretty darned cold in there too.

IIRC, there was something about LE getting a warrant to search the house & were planning to bring the dogs in when they got it. This had to be what prompted JR to "find" her himself, but why? What advantage did it give him to "find" her instead of LE finding her? I'm certain he had some reason, in his own head, but I can't figure out how he thought this would benefit him.

 

[Tawny]

I think you may be on to something here. It's been discussed, ad nauseam, that the Rs could never have been stupid enough to believe LE would just leave after the call for ransom did not come in at the specified time. I have to agree, no way were they that stupid.

BUT....eventually they would leave. Maybe late the night of the 26th, or sometime during the day of the 27th. Probably the 27th in case it was the "tomorrow" referred to in the RN. They weren't going to be there forever. I think that "tomorrow" was a huge mistake in the RN, and that's possibly what threw the plan off.

I do think it's entirely possible that they were going to wait it out, then "find" her where the SFF returned her dead for ignoring their warnings. There were so many warnings, and PR ignored every single one. Accident? Coincidence? Couldn't be. I've never heard of a single parent (other than PR) that called friends over right away. Sure in other cases friends & family do show up, but only because they've heard it through the grape vine, not because the parents called them over. Had this plan worked, it would have given JR & PR even more fuel to fan the "victim" fires.

A stupid plan, yes, but let's face it, their options were somewhat limited. I suspect that window being open had something to do with this. (Keep her cold so decomp did not advance so quickly.) If she were in the crawl space it would be pretty darned cold in there too.

IIRC, there was something about LE getting a warrant to search the house & were planning to bring the dogs in when they got it. This had to be what prompted JR to "find" her himself, but why? What advantage did it give him to "find" her instead of LE finding her? I'm certain he had some reason, in his own head, but I can't figure out how he thought this would benefit him.

RB&IBM:

This just clicked for me. The wording of the ransom note could very well have been what threw the stick under the rollerblades for them... so to speak.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I wonder if the R's knew they weren't going to be indicted before it was announced. Their book deal was made public 3 weeks after the GJ ended. I think if the case were heading to trial, there wouldn't be a book until it was over, because there would probably be a gag order. So it makes me wonder if they were in talks with publishers before it ended because they knew they weren't going to get arrested. Even if they didn't know, I definitely think there was a rush to get the book out very soon after the GJ because who knew how much interest there would be a year (or more) later. So either they were discussing a book before the GJ, or as soon as it ended, they were on the phone with publishers.

 

[Meara]

Could the body have been hidden initially in the closet between the basement stairs and the laundry room? I believe it had a keyed lock and, if it was locked when Officer French searched the basement, he would have had no interest in looking inside, since, like the WC, it couldn't have been a point of exit for an intruder. In the photo below (looking from the laundry room toward the stairs (out of view on the left) and the beginning of the hall leading to the WC), you can see the closet and what appears to be a substantial lock mounted above the door knob.



The closet was big enough to lay the body flat, so keeping it there would have produced the same the same rigor and livor patterns as putting it in the WC.

I think it's unlikely the body was kept in the crawl space. In his book Steve Thomas mentions that he got very dirty from searching there. If JBR had been concealed there, dust and bits of rubble would have been found on her body and clothing.

If the body was in the locked closet, John would have had an excellent reason to risk moving it to the WC when he heard that search dogs would be brought in. In fact, he would have had no choice. A body found in the WC could have been placed there by an intruder, but a body found in the locked closet could only have been placed there by someone who had the key.

But even with the body moved, his situation was dicey. If cadaver dogs were to used, one of them might also alert to the closet; and, even though JBR's body would be found in the WC, the police would realize that the body had at some time been concealed in the closet. Perhaps they would alert to other incriminating locations. Worse, since John had carried the body, a cadaver dog might alert to him before it ever got to the basement.

Could it be, then, that when Linda Arndt told John and FW to search the house, John made a beeline for the basement, "found" the body, and immediately brought it upstairs, this was to prevent the dogs' being brought in? Did police ever use cadaver dogs to identify the scent of a victim on another person? He didn't know. So did he make sure to be seen carrying JBR's body and lying next to it to have a good explanation for being covered with its scent?

Well, that's a lot of ifs. I hadn't thought about these possibilities till now, but they do seem to fit together well.

 

[FreeSafety36]

^^ very nice post, Meara.

I don't really have much to add to the thread, just had a thought regarding the entire thing and the Ramsey's actions earlier.

So much doesn't make sense. The more I think about it, I'm not sure the Ramsey's thought they were going to get away with this. I'm thinking they may have assumed one or both of them would be arrested, and may have only been trying to create enough reasonable doubt to avoid conviction. There are essentially 5 camps that divide those of us who follow this. There's the JDI camp, the PDI camp, the BDI camp, the RDI (no one specific member) camp and the IDI camp. Each points to specific pieces of evidence to support their side. They only needed to have two differing opinions among twelve people sitting on a jury to avoid conviction.

Anyone else think that could have possibly been the entire plan, before they saw how badly the BPD handled the entire case, and realized there was a real chance they'd never even be arrested?

 

[Nom de plume]

Could the body have been hidden initially in the closet between the basement stairs and the laundry room? I believe it had a keyed lock and, if it was locked when Officer French searched the basement, he would have had no interest in looking inside, since, like the WC, it couldn't have been a point of exit for an intruder. In the photo below (looking from the laundry room toward the stairs (out of view on the left) and the beginning of the hall leading to the WC), you can see the closet and what appears to be a substantial lock mounted above the door knob.



The closet was big enough to lay the body flat, so keeping it there would have produced the same the same rigor and livor patterns as putting it in the WC.

I think it's unlikely the body was kept in the crawl space. In his book Steve Thomas mentions that he got very dirty from searching there. If JBR had been concealed there, dust and bits of rubble would have been found on her body and clothing.

If the body was in the locked closet, John would have had an excellent reason to risk moving it to the WC when he heard that search dogs would be brought in. In fact, he would have had no choice. A body found in the WC could have been placed there by an intruder, but a body found in the locked closet could only have been placed there by someone who had the key.

But even with the body moved, his situation was dicey. If cadaver dogs were to used, one of them might also alert to the closet; and, even though JBR's body would be found in the WC, the police would realize that the body had at some time been concealed in the closet. Perhaps they would alert to other incriminating locations. Worse, since John had carried the body, a cadaver dog might alert to him before it ever got to the basement.

Could it be, then, that when Linda Arndt told John and FW to search the house, John made a beeline for the basement, "found" the body, and immediately brought it upstairs, this was to prevent the dogs' being brought in? Did police ever use cadaver dogs to identify the scent of a victim on another person? He didn't know. So did he make sure to be seen carrying JBR's body and lying next to it to have a good explanation for being covered with its scent?

Well, that's a lot of ifs. I hadn't thought about these possibilities till now, but they do seem to fit together well.

Great post! You bring up some good points.

I've never thought about the possibility of CDs alerting to a live person before, but I can't see why they wouldn't. Anywhere they smell decomp, they alert. Who knows, JB could have been moved all over that basement half a dozen times between the time of death and being "found". (providing she was kept in the same position, or after rigor/livor was set, etc., etc.)

A little OT but the manner in which he carried her upstairs has always bothered me. Wouldn't any normal parent have held her tight to their own body, or at least cradled her in their arms? Holding her out at arms length is just so unnatural! It's almost like he was afraid she would "contaminate" him or something. SMH

The closet sure looks like a possibility! (Who puts a dead bolt on a closet? That's just odd IMO.) I doubt French searched either one as he was looking for an exit point. FW may have tried since he was looking for a "hiding" JB, but if he found one locked, he would have figured she couldn't go in there and then lock a dead bolt from the outside. The only thing that makes me skeptical of the closet being a hiding place is the condition of the rest of the basement. I have a hard time picturing the floor of the closet being empty/clean, but I suppose he/she/they could have removed items in order to put her in there.

 

[Nom de plume]

^^ very nice post, Meara.

I don't really have much to add to the thread, just had a thought regarding the entire thing and the Ramsey's actions earlier.

So much doesn't make sense. The more I think about it, I'm not sure the Ramsey's thought they were going to get away with this. I'm thinking they may have assumed one or both of them would be arrested, and may have only been trying to create enough reasonable doubt to avoid conviction. There are essentially 5 camps that divide those of us who follow this. There's the JDI camp, the PDI camp, the BDI camp, the RDI (no one specific member) camp and the IDI camp. Each points to specific pieces of evidence to support their side. They only needed to have two differing opinions among twelve people sitting on a jury to avoid conviction.

Anyone else think that could have possibly been the entire plan, before they saw how badly the BPD handled the entire case, and realized there was a real chance they'd never even be arrested?

Certainly a possibility! I hadn't thought about that before, but it does make sense. If this was the plan all along, I'm sure that "create reasonable doubt" would have been legal advice they received in the wee hours.

 

[Tawny]

Maybe those alleged missing phone records include calls to/from someone who told them that reasonable doubt is the only chance they had to get out of this mess.

 

[Nom de plume]

I wonder if the R's knew they weren't going to be indicted before it was announced. Their book deal was made public 3 weeks after the GJ ended. I think if the case were heading to trial, there wouldn't be a book until it was over, because there would probably be a gag order. So it makes me wonder if they were in talks with publishers before it ended because they knew they weren't going to get arrested. Even if they didn't know, I definitely think there was a rush to get the book out very soon after the GJ because who knew how much interest there would be a year (or more) later. So either they were discussing a book before the GJ, or as soon as it ended, they were on the phone with publishers.

I'd bet they knew before the GJ was even called to hear the case that it would never result in charges being filed regardless of whether or not there was an indictment.

 

[dazeerae]

I have to agree with Nom...who the heck puts a dead bolt on a closet? There may be a reasonable explanation, but it seems odd to say the least.

 

[Meara]

^^ very nice post, Meara.

I don't really have much to add to the thread, just had a thought regarding the entire thing and the Ramsey's actions earlier.

So much doesn't make sense. The more I think about it, I'm not sure the Ramsey's thought they were going to get away with this. I'm thinking they may have assumed one or both of them would be arrested, and may have only been trying to create enough reasonable doubt to avoid conviction. There are essentially 5 camps that divide those of us who follow this. There's the JDI camp, the PDI camp, the BDI camp, the RDI (no one specific member) camp and the IDI camp. Each points to specific pieces of evidence to support their side. They only needed to have two differing opinions among twelve people sitting on a jury to avoid conviction.

Anyone else think that could have possibly been the entire plan, before they saw how badly the BPD handled the entire case, and realized there was a real chance they'd never even be arrested?

What a sharp analysis. If it's been said before, I haven't seen it. You could be right.

 

[FreeSafety36]

What a sharp analysis. If it's been said before, I haven't seen it. You could be right.

One thing that really jumps out at me in regards to that as a theory is the idea, which IMO was planted by JR, that JAR may have had anything to do with it.

JAR's suitcase in the basement, containing a semen-stained blanket and child's book certainly makes JAR look like a pedophile. JR telling LE that it shouldn't be down there indicates to me that he's trying to point out to them "hey, this is out of place- could be evidence...Oh, my son's suitcase which I just pointed out to you could be evidence is holding things that makes him look suspicious for this?" JR knew JAR was in Atlanta and had an airtight alibi, but the physical evidence in the suitcase would force them to check out an avenue he knew would be a dead end, and having LE check it out would serve to buy the rest of them some time and space. Hiring lawyers for JAR and his mother also supports this idea, IMO.

Also, the R's insisting that the older children (JAR and MRL) be cleared as suspects before LE could speak to them makes me wonder were they ever suspects, and if they were, why? It's easy enough to check and see if they flew in from Atlanta that morning, wouldn't even take an hour. I think by insisting they be cleared, JR was planting the idea to LE that maybe they need to look at them for this. I see no reason why LE would think of the older children as suspects, but apparently JR did...or at least, wanted LE to consider them.

I don't know...I could be barking up a slick tree on this one, but glad to see others think it's possible.

 

[Meara]

Thanks :blushing:

A little OT but the manner in which he carried her upstairs has always bothered me. Wouldn't any normal parent have held her tight to their own body, or at least cradled her in their arms? Holding her out at arms length is just so unnatural! It's almost like he was afraid she would "contaminate" him or something. SMH

Nom, this issue has come up numerous times over the years. There is confusion about the actual position of the arms because they're sometimes described as being straight over her head, yet the crime scene photos show them somewhat bent at the elbows, which would have made carrying her close to his body difficult.

Warning! Graphic images!

#6 on this thread: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9784

All that said, I too think he could have carried her more lovingly.


The closet sure looks like a possibility! (Who puts a dead bolt on a closet? That's just odd IMO.) I doubt French searched either one as he was looking for an exit point. FW may have tried since he was looking for a "hiding" JB, but if he found one locked, he would have figured she couldn't go in there and then lock a dead bolt from the outside. The only thing that makes me skeptical of the closet being a hiding place is the condition of the rest of the basement. I have a hard time picturing the floor of the closet being empty/clean, but I suppose he/she/they could have removed items in order to put her in there.

Agreed on points 1-3! Based on all the published photos of the house at the time of the murder, I'd say the basement is by far the messiest place, with the Train Room, where BR and his friends played, taking 1st prize for neck breaking potential. The Master BR looks almost tidy in comparison, so I'm guessing the same would have been true for the closet; plus, the kids couldn't get in it to strew toys. The big lock suggests something important to the parents inside, something they wouldn't toss around.

This is all pure speculation, of course. For all we know, the lock was installed by the previous owners, the Rams never used it, and Officer French went right in. Well, I can write that, but my instincts line won't up behind it. :notgood:

 

[Nom de plume]

Thanks :blushing:

A little OT but the manner in which he carried her upstairs has always bothered me. Wouldn't any normal parent have held her tight to their own body, or at least cradled her in their arms? Holding her out at arms length is just so unnatural! It's almost like he was afraid she would "contaminate" him or something. SMH

Nom, this issue has come up numerous times over the years. There is confusion about the actual position of the arms because they're sometimes described as being straight over her head, yet the crime scene photos show them somewhat bent at the elbows, which would have made carrying her close to his body difficult.

Warning! Graphic images!

#6 on this thread: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=9784

All that said, I too think he could have carried her more lovingly.


The closet sure looks like a possibility! (Who puts a dead bolt on a closet? That's just odd IMO.) I doubt French searched either one as he was looking for an exit point. FW may have tried since he was looking for a "hiding" JB, but if he found one locked, he would have figured she couldn't go in there and then lock a dead bolt from the outside. The only thing that makes me skeptical of the closet being a hiding place is the condition of the rest of the basement. I have a hard time picturing the floor of the closet being empty/clean, but I suppose he/she/they could have removed items in order to put her in there.

Agreed on points 1-3! Based on all the published photos of the house at the time of the murder, I'd say the basement is by far the messiest place, with the Train Room, where BR and his friends played, taking 1st prize for neck breaking potential. The Master BR looks almost tidy in comparison, so I'm guessing the same would have been true for the closet; plus, the kids couldn't get in it to strew toys. The big lock suggests something important to the parents inside, something they wouldn't toss around.

This is all pure speculation, of course. For all we know, the lock was installed by the previous owners, the Rams never used it, and Officer French went right in. Well, I can write that, but my instincts line won't up behind it. :notgood:

ITA. The lock could have been installed by previous owners, but how convenient for the Rs if they had the key, and did in fact hide her in there. :dunno:

Something else that comes to mind is that floor safe. Do we know if it was ever searched, or even spotted by LE? Great place to hide some small items you didn't want to be found, or associated with.

 

[Meara]

This is all pure speculation, of course. For all we know, the lock was installed by the previous owners, the Rams never used it, and Officer French went right in. Well, I can write that, but my instincts line won't up behind it. :notgood:

:blushing: Ohhh......that is one hugely. embarrassing. typo. LOL!! Should read:

Well, I can write that, but my instincts won't line up behind it.


There. That's better.

 

[gramcracker]

my brain did the auto-correct thing. I read it the right way and didn't pick up on the typo 'til your second post

XLNT theory/speculation BTW

 

[Meara]

ITA. The lock could have been installed by previous owners, but how convenient for the Rs if they had the key, and did in fact hide her in there. :dunno:

Something else that comes to mind is that floor safe. Do we know if it was ever searched, or even spotted by LE? Great place to hide some small items you didn't want to be found, or associated with.

I looked it up. In PMPT, Schiller says LE found the safe under a blue-green tarp when they searched the house. Although he doesn't say they opened it, it's not credibe that they found it but didn't look inside, or that they found evidence they didn't use.

I have read elsewhere that a metal sheet covered the safe. Does anyone know whether PMPT has it right, or was that one of Schiller's errors? DeeDee - ?

A more interesting question might be, Could the tarp have covered JBR? Could that be why FW didn't see her when he looked into the WC?

 

[Venom]

Great post! You bring up some good points.

I've never thought about the possibility of CDs alerting to a live person before, but I can't see why they wouldn't. Anywhere they smell decomp, they alert. Who knows, JB could have been moved all over that basement half a dozen times between the time of death and being "found". (providing she was kept in the same position, or after rigor/livor was set, etc., etc.)

A little OT but the manner in which he carried her upstairs has always bothered me. Wouldn't any normal parent have held her tight to their own body, or at least cradled her in their arms? Holding her out at arms length is just so unnatural! It's almost like he was afraid she would "contaminate" him or something. SMH

The closet sure looks like a possibility! (Who puts a dead bolt on a closet? That's just odd IMO.) I doubt French searched either one as he was looking for an exit point. FW may have tried since he was looking for a "hiding" JB, but if he found one locked, he would have figured she couldn't go in there and then lock a dead bolt from the outside. The only thing that makes me skeptical of the closet being a hiding place is the condition of the rest of the basement. I have a hard time picturing the floor of the closet being empty/clean, but I suppose he/she/they could have removed items in order to put her in there.

They way he carried her has always seemed odd to me, for the same reasons as you have. I posted before about it and another poster said he may have had to carry her like that due to rigor mortis. He/She likened it to trying to carry a board up some steps.
Also never heard of a dead bolt on a closet door.

 

[wonderllama]

Just helping out as the link in Meara's post didn't work.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9784"]JonBenet Ramsey autopsy photos - CAUTION GRAPHIC! - Forums For Justice[/ame]