RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[Mama2JML]

Mothers do molest their daughters; however, of the female offenders, 14% of the cases reported are sexually abused boys and 6% of them are girls, although that is more frequently than mothers who bash their daughter's skulls and garrote them to death.

If, as you have opined, Anyhoo, the head bash came before the ligature strangulation, why was only 2 tbs of blood found at autopsy from JonBenet's head wound?

The enclosed head injury that JonBenet suffered was compared to a fall from a third story building and landing head first. The head strike was meant to kill this child just as assuredly as the ligature around her neck was intended to end her life.

Panic, fear, emotions, previous inexperience at killing, inexperience at being a criminal, and the adrenaline rush are involved following an awful accident involving a loved one. Under those stressors, how could any parent effectively stage anything much less compose a lengthy RN unless it was planned in advance?

In Lou Smit's 35+ years of homicide detective work on 200 cases, he only knew of 2 that were staged. Staging at a crime scene is not as common as tv shows leads us to believe.

Everything we see at the JBR crime scene is exactly what was intended to be found. It was not staged. It was premeditated murder.

I believe the cord was not cut before binding JonBenet. The non-frayed end of the nylon cord was wound around the broken paint brush. The garrote could reach from the knot at her neck to her vagina if the 5.5" tail from the right wrist ligature was uncut at this point. That was not coincidental.

DeDee, I find many of your thoughts intriguing. Would you be willing to post the assessment BBM above in the IDI thread? We can discuss the assault based on science and leave our _DI leanings at the door. ...just a thorough analysis of the evidence to aid in constructing a theory regarding the sequence of events resulting in JonBenet's murder. If you'd rather not, I understand.

 

[Tawny]

If something is found as it was intended to be found, wouldn't that indicate at least a level of staging?

An "unstaged" crime scene consists of a lot of evidence a murderer would not intend to be found.

 

[otg]

(respectfully snipped)

If, as you have opined, Anyhoo, the head bash came before the ligature strangulation, why was only 2 tbs of blood found at autopsy from JonBenet's head wound?

If you don't mind my interjecting here.... There was more bleeding in JonBenet's skull than the 1-1/2 teaspoons that everyone remembers. From a [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9566550#post9566550"]previous post[/ame]:

It is often repeated that there was little bleeding in the skull. But there was more than what most people realize. Besides the often-quoted 1-1/2 teaspoons of subdural hemorrhage (which is the only bleeding that is quantified in the AR), there was also bleeding under the scalp ("an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area"), and "a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere". (Red textis from the AR.) IOW, there were three areas of bleeding in different areas of the layers around the skull. The only one people refer to is the "1-1/2 teaspoons" because it is the only one Meyer quantifies in the AR. If all the medical mumbo-jumbo is confusing (and it is to me as well), let me suggest reading where I tried to break down the AR into understandable language [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9054790&postcount=335"]here[/ame].

Wecht commented at one time on the relatively small amount for this type of injury, and he put into layman's terms an amount we can understand (1-1/2 teaspoons instead of 7 to 8 cc's). I don't think he said that this was an indication that the head blow was inflicted after death (I could be wrong on that), but that it happened after the strangulation. The problem with the amount of bleeding inside her skull is that with the ligature already tight around her neck, the blood flow in and out of her head would be restricted. If there was no strangulation at the moment the head blow happened, there would indeed have been much more bleeding.
​

The enclosed head injury that JonBenet suffered was compared to a fall from a third story building and landing head first. The head strike was meant to kill this child just as assuredly as the ligature around her neck was intended to end her life.

I'm not sure where the comparison to a third story fall came from, but it is misleading. The amount of force required in that one spot (1/2" x1-3/4") may be equivalent to a three story fall, but the results would not be same as they would be to a person falling head first on the ground. If a person fell three stories onto their head, the skull would just about splatter like a ripe melon, their neck and spine would be not just broken, but... well, you can imagine the result of a person falling head first onto the ground. The difference is in the fact that all the force was concentrated in that one small area of JonBenet's skull.

Everything we see at the JBR crime scene is exactly what was intended to be found. It was not staged. It was premeditated murder.

If something was altered to become "what was intended to be found", it would be defined as staging. So the conclusion that it was "premeditated murder" is an incorrect assumption (IMO).

I believe the cord was not cut before binding JonBenet. The non-frayed end of the nylon cord was wound around the broken paint brush. The garrote could reach from the knot at her neck to her vagina if the 5.5" tail from the right wrist ligature was uncut at this point. That was not coincidental.

I don't remember where, but it seems we looked at that before and decided the cord would not be long enough to do that. (As always though, I could be wrong . I'll try to look for it later.)

 

[DeDee]

(respectfully snipped)If you don't mind my interjecting here.... There was more bleeding in JonBenet's skull than the 1-1/2 teaspoons that everyone remembers. From a previous post:

It is often repeated that there was little bleeding in the skull. But there was more than what most people realize. Besides the often-quoted 1-1/2 teaspoons of subdural hemorrhage (which is the only bleeding that is quantified in the AR), there was also bleeding under the scalp ("an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area"), and "a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere". (Red textis from the AR.) IOW, there were three areas of bleeding in different areas of the layers around the skull. The only one people refer to is the "1-1/2 teaspoons" because it is the only one Meyer quantifies in the AR. If all the medical mumbo-jumbo is confusing (and it is to me as well), let me suggest reading where I tried to break down the AR into understandable language here.

Wecht commented at one time on the relatively small amount for this type of injury, and he put into layman's terms an amount we can understand (1-1/2 teaspoons instead of 7 to 8 cc's). I don't think he said that this was an indication that the head blow was inflicted after death (I could be wrong on that), but that it happened after the strangulation. The problem with the amount of bleeding inside her skull is that with the ligature already tight around her neck, the blood flow in and out of her head would be restricted. If there was no strangulation at the moment the head blow happened, there would indeed have been much more bleeding.
​

I'm not sure where the comparison to a third story fall came from, but it is misleading. The amount of force required in that one spot (1/2" x1-3/4") may be equivalent to a three story fall, but the results would not be same as they would be to a person falling head first on the ground. If a person fell three stories onto their head, the skull would just about splatter like a ripe melon, their neck and spine would be not just broken, but... well, you can imagine the result of a person falling head first onto the ground. The difference is in the fact that all the force was concentrated in that one small area of JonBenet's skull.


If something was altered to become "what was intended to be found", it would be defined as staging. So the conclusion that it was "premeditated murder" is an incorrect assumption (IMO).


I don't remember where, but it seems we looked at that before and decided the cord would not be long enough to do that. (As always though, I could be wrong . I'll try to look for it later.)

otg, your posts are always welcome.

I believe JBR was breathing after the ligature was applied as well as after the head injury then further strangled by the cord until death. This concurs with the AR in that it was the strangulation that killed her.

Larry King transcript:

WOOD: "...And the autopsy showed there were only two tablespoons of blood in her skull cavity."

http://www.crimelynx.com/woodlkl.html

Also see:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9947"]Lou Smit Deposition - Wolf Case - January 9, 2002 - Forums For Justice[/ame]


RE: 2 tablespoons, my point was that there was not as much blood found in the skull area as would be expected if this child's head injury had occurred while the complete flow of blood was pumping throughout her circulatory system unobstructed.

I'm not sure where the comparison to a third story fall came from, but it is misleading.

BTW, this info easily comes up on google when using this phrase: "lou smit a fall from a three story building and landing".

The information came from the Lou Smit deposition, after p. 80 and before p 110:

Q. "How would you describe the severity of the blow to this child's head?"

A. "I would describe it as a very severe, brutal striking of the head with an object with great force.

In this case, and I have talked with others, experts, it is almost like falling off of a three-story building and landing on your head. I also equate it to some of the motor vehicle accidents I have investigated where there are severe head injuries as a result of that. This was a severe, brutal bludgeoning of a little six-year-old girl."

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9947"]Lou Smit Deposition - Wolf Case - January 9, 2002 - Forums For Justice[/ame]

If a person fell three stories onto their head, the skull would just about splatter like a ripe melon, their neck and spine would be not just broken

Falling from a building onto one's head does not always cause the skull to splatter like a ripe melon:

Nicole came to New York to be a professional performer. When she returned home after an audition, Nicole found herself locked out of her apartment. She tried to find a way in by climbing to the roof of her building and entering through a window. (In 2008) She fell six stories to the alleyway below. Nicole broke her neck, back, pelvis, ribs, and punctured her lung. She wasn’t found until the next day. Nicole remembers waking up in the hospital. “The staff at NewYork-Presbyterian motivated me to get better by celebrating every step in my recovery. They didn’t invest in a patient—they invested in me.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeJr3ob4aOs

If something was altered to become "what was intended to be found", it would be defined as staging. So the conclusion that it was "premeditated murder" is an incorrect assumption (IMO).

As for me, I do not find anything at the crime scene in the WC that has been altered. Everything found in the WC was unaltered and without staging and just as the killer left it. The events occurred without involving any parental staging, IOW. And I respect that the lack of staging disagrees with your BDI theory.

From my previous post:
Everything we see at the JBR crime scene is exactly what was intended to be found. It was not staged. It was premeditated murder.

My research for the one continuous length came from my stick person drawing with the lengths of the cord and tail ends measured. My best estimate was that with the 5.5" from the tail on the right wrist added to the 17" from the garrote tied at the neck was enough length to reach her vagina.

I would be most interested in discovering whether or not the cord was used as one piece initially or not, if you can find the data when time allows, it will be appreciated.

 

[otg]

(I'm trying to catch up with past commitments.)

otg, your posts are always welcome.

I believe JBR was breathing after the ligature was applied as well as after the head injury then further strangled by the cord until death. This concurs with the AR in that it was the strangulation that killed her.

Larry King transcript:

WOOD: "...And the autopsy showed there were only two tablespoons of blood in her skull cavity."

http://www.crimelynx.com/woodlkl.html

Also see:

Lou Smit Deposition - Wolf Case - January 9, 2002 - Forums For Justice


RE: 2 tablespoons, my point was that there was not as much blood found in the skull area as would be expected if this child's head injury had occurred while the complete flow of blood was pumping throughout her circulatory system unobstructed.

You are correct that there was less bleeding than should be expected from a head blow like this. The reason there was less (as you understand) was that the ligature kept more blood from pumping into her brain. It doesn’t matter what Lin Wood, or Lou Smit, or anyone else said or says -- there was more cerebral bleeding than what Dr. Wecht brought to public discourse. The AR tells us this.

BTW, this info easily comes up on google when using this phrase: "lou smit a fall from a three story building and landing".

The information came from the Lou Smit deposition, after p. 80 and before p 110:

Q. "How would you describe the severity of the blow to this child's head?"

A. "I would describe it as a very severe, brutal striking of the head with an object with great force.

In this case, and I have talked with others, experts, it is almost like falling off of a three-story building and landing on your head. I also equate it to some of the motor vehicle accidents I have investigated where there are severe head injuries as a result of that. This was a severe, brutal bludgeoning of a little six-year-old girl."

Lou Smit Deposition - Wolf Case - January 9, 2002 - Forums For Justice

(Again with the LS quotes :doh: .) I still say that the 3-story comparison is misleading.

Falling from a building onto one's head does not always cause the skull to splatter like a ripe melon:

The Youtube link you provided doesn’t say how the woman (Nicole Marquez) landed. She had a broken neck, back, and pelvis. Obviously she didn’t land on her head, so again Lou Smit’s opinion of this means nothing. Considering that the pelvis is probably the least likely to break (along with the other breaks), I would guess that the woman in the video landed on her butt.

As for me, I do not find anything at the crime scene in the WC that has been altered. Everything found in the WC was unaltered and without staging and just as the killer left it. The events occurred without involving any parental staging, IOW.

Sorry, DeDee, I didn’t realize you accepted everything as not being staged.

And I respect that the lack of staging disagrees with your BDI theory.

(Now that hurts.) If anything disagrees with my (or anyone’s) theory, I can accept it. I will not ignore something because it may disagree with my theory. I respect your and everyone else’s opinions. I just didn’t realize you thought there was no staging.

My research for the one continuous length came from my stick person drawing with the lengths of the cord and tail ends measured. My best estimate was that with the 5.5" from the tail on the right wrist added to the 17" from the garrote tied at the neck was enough length to reach her vagina.

I would be most interested in discovering whether or not the cord was used as one piece initially or not, if you can find the data when time allows, it will be appreciated.

I couldn’t find it, DeDee, but I did this for you to see if it will help. JonBenet was 47” tall (from AR). Child body structures are different than adults. Attached is a sketch from here showing structures at different ages by percentage of overall height. I’ve estimated approximately where the knot would be in the back of her neck and the beginning of the genital area (male/female proportions are the same), and then added my estimates of the percentage of height perpendicularly between the two locations. I’ll let you do the math to decide for yourself if you think the above idea is viable.

Let me know if you need anything more.

 

[DeDee]

(I'm trying to catch up with past commitments.) You are correct that there was less bleeding than should be expected from a head blow like this. The reason there was less (as you understand) was that the ligature kept more blood from pumping into her brain. It doesn’t matter what Lin Wood, or Lou Smit, or anyone else said or says -- there was more cerebral bleeding than what Dr. Wecht brought to public discourse. The AR tells us this.

I read post #415 regarding the amount of blood found in the AR. The areas described indicated there was more than 2 tablespoons in total. Even though, the AR, states "an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage", the AR also used the phrase "a thin layer" so there was more than 2 tablespoons but how much more is subjective.

(Again with the LS quotes :doh: .) I still say that the 3-story comparison is misleading.

The Youtube link you provided doesn’t say how the woman (Nicole Marquez) landed. She had a broken neck, back, and pelvis. Obviously she didn’t land on her head, so again Lou Smit’s opinion of this means nothing. Considering that the pelvis is probably the least likely to break (along with the other breaks), I would guess that the woman in the video landed on her butt.

I agree with the head injury being equivalent to "the fall from a 3-story building" as being same as what JBR experienced to be a misleading description and am overjoyed you do as well. Lou Smit stated it. It was my error to repeat it as fact. I provided the supporting links so it would be understood that the comparison was not pulled from thin air. Until that one post, I was more comfortable with the description as one received from an impact with enough powerful force to knock out a 300 pound man.

The video provided of Nicole does not tell us how she landed, only that she fell 6 stories. Her face was quite puffy and her head was, at least partially bandaged, as I recall, while she was initially hospitalized. She is dancing again although she may never at the level she once hoped.

Sorry, DeDee, I didn’t realize you accepted everything as not being staged.

Well, not exactly everything, otg. Staging was involved in that the the body was placed out of sight. The RN was left on the first floor for staging a kidnapping scene. Also, it is possible the tape across her mouth was for staging the kidnap scenario. However, immho, the ligatures, the head blow, the injuries to her body, the white blanket, etc. were all part of the calculated premeditation by PDI, including the malevolent language of the RN.

(Now that hurts.) If anything disagrees with my (or anyone’s) theory, I can accept it. I will not ignore something because it may disagree with my theory. I respect your and everyone else’s opinions. I just didn’t realize you thought there was no staging.

(Please accept my apologies for it is my purpose to not hurt nor harm, insult nor anger, another individual.) In the mind of the killer, the CS was made to appear, or staged, as a kidnapping to prevent authorities from accusing a family member of being held responsible for the crime.

Staging in a CS, for me, means alterations have been made to make one thing look like another thing. IMMHO, Patsy did not make alterations to what she did to her daughter, including the acute sexual assault. In other words, that action was not performed in order to mask prior abuse. All of the injuries, all violent actions taken against this 6yo victim, were preplanned by the mother.

If removing debris or fingerprint evidence is considered staging, then, the flashlight was staged. If removing items from a crime scene indicate staging, then, I must agree that items have been removed.

By example, the source for the brown fibers, 9 pages from the interior of the RN pad, the other portion of the broken paint brush, and a stun gun, if one was used, were not discovered on the scene. Note that is not a complete listing of items missing from the CS.

For instance, the pair of size 4-6 panties JBR most likely was wearing at the White's were changed, at some point, to the size 12s. However, I am unaware if those particular size 4-6 panties were placed into a pile with other dirty clothes at the home which may have been collected later as evidence.

Consider this, if you will. When preparing JBR for bed, PR applied a pull up style diaper and placed the size 12s over the diaper to please JBR because JBR would not wish to not being wearing panties even with a diaper. From lifetime experiences, wearing panties are of big time importance to little girls. Also, pull up diapers were much bulkier and thicker back in the 90s than those sold on today's modern market, so, if, when comparing wearing a diaper under the size 12s, please have that in mind. OTOH, JBR could have been groomed to believe that wearing panties was not normal.

Three FAO Swartz packages were taken with the search warrants. However, we do not know what was inside the gifts as far as the location of the new package of the size 12 day of the week panties. I assume the remaining size 12s were left in the home by LE, thus not secreted inside the FAO presents, since the size 12s were turned in later by one of the Rs attorneys. Furthermore, the SWs do not indicate removing any size 12 panties from the CS.

While considering the second floor area, much has been mentioned about feces smeared on the box of chocolates as being an action performed by BR. It concerned me, messy as she was, that PR would allow investigators to find such grossness in her daughter's bedroom. Therefore, I lean toward Patsy doing this herself by using BRs pants that were found on JBRs bedroom floor, iirc. If so, then that action would be one of staging or one meant to confuse authorities.

Also, not staged, was the Bible found open on John's desk. IMMHO, it was placed there, by PDI, as I believe PR read Bible passages to JBR while in the basement. Additionally, at one point in time, I suspected FW of marking the dictionary's page pointing to the word incest. ATT, IMMHO, PDI as part of her premeditations.

I couldn’t find it, DeDee, but I did this for you to see if it will help. JonBenet was 47” tall (from AR). Child body structures are different than adults. Attached is a sketch from here showing structures at different ages by percentage of overall height. I’ve estimated approximately where the knot would be in the back of her neck and the beginning of the genital area (male/female proportions are the same), and then added my estimates of the percentage of height perpendicularly between the two locations. I’ll let you do the math to decide for yourself if you think the above idea is viable.

Let me know if you need anything more.

Thank you for the detailed sketch. One day, I may learn how to perform such applications on this computer that is far more capable of operations than I am in utilizing them.

Your presentation shows the distance between her neck and the pubic area to be appx. 52% of JBRs 47" in height. I calculated the approximate length of cord required, by using the proposed 52%, and concluded that, if we are accurate in this assumption, it would, indeed, be an awkward stretch, if not impossible, for the cord to reach the pubic area if the cord was in one piece with one section attached to her right wrist.

otg, as always, your clarity of information shared and knowledgeable commentary is appreciated. It is doubtful that I could find anyone on JBRs forum who would disagree.

Your amazing post regarding the knots involving the ligatures and how they functioned was not considered bloviating as I learned the term's meaning to be. I understand the meaning has since changed, somewhat, to a more urban meaning, due to the popular Harry Potter series. Therefore, bloviate all you want!


These are only my opinions expressed, based on evidence available, that may be subject to change.

 

[questfortrue]

I agree anyhoo whoever strangled her is the actual murderer. I definitely believe that it was all set into motion b/c of something going horribly wrong with BR. Unfortunately for JRB, that family had something to hide, and sadly they were willing to go to any lengths to hide it.

The quote from Wecht pretty much says it all....

Some of the following has been covered before, iso this is just some additional thoughts.

JB had a lot of abrasions on her. To me this would point to a struggle with either her brother or her mother. If it were BR, then it follows he may have struck her with something. If it were PR, either struck or flung. But one can’t assign a “time” to these abrasions, so leaving that for now. It’s just that these abrasions contribute to the concept of a “rage” event.

In the BDI line of thought if JB screamed before she was struck by BR, one or both parents may have shown up. (IMO, they were not asleep because of the presence of PR jacket fiber in the painting tote and in the neck ligature and JR’s Israeli shirt fibers in the brand new Bloomies. They were still dressed.) It could be that BR had tied JB around the neck with something (not necessarily the ligature cord), in one of their sex games, and after a scream, when the parent(s) came running, BR was sent to bed.

So wondering also about the decision not to call 911. I know the posts about “hiding” this for image sake and protecting BR or themselves. But it doesn’t lead so easily to the explanation of the strangulation. The 3 possibilities: 1) JB’s body weight caused her to collapse into what her neck was tied with (by BR?) 2) A ligature tied by PR, and actually tightened, connected to her mental instability that night, or a rage 3) JR making that strangulation decision on his own, to hide family involvement and/or to hide being associated with public perception that he’d been molesting his daughter, whether he had been or not. #3 idea would be one reason the two seemed so estranged after the police had arrived.

Further on the lack of a 911 call for help. A head strike might be explained as an unfortunate accident between kids. The “playing doctor” was something the housekeeper and a few outside friends purportedly knew about and kept close to their chest to try to keep it out of the tabloids (a few internet comments from people who knew them; I’m not linking it though). But the strangulation meant a “forever” cover-up. Even if it were a self-strangulation, it still points to something pretty dark in the household. My question would be and it’s likely not answerable: Was the decision to point to an intruder/inside job/someone out to “get even with JR” made prior to or after her strangulation? If prior, it seems like someone decided the “pointing anywhere else” idea was enhanced by the strangulation, and the strangulation would also mean JB could never tell what happened to her if by remote chance she did survive the strike. (A calculatingly cold decision) If after, then just do the best one can with the already complete strangulation, someone adds a stick (moo JR) to make it look like a garrote.

One other thing on the strangulation: The medical experts claimed the paintbrush jab came shortly before death; so if I understand this correctly, whoever inserted the paintbrush also would be likely associated with the ligature strangulation.

Whose decision was it not to get JB help? Was it JR’s alone? PR’s alone? Did they discuss it together, but someone made the final decision? Leading me to the further speculation on the part of LE . . . There was another thought once among LE and relayed by ST that the $64,000 question was whether JR was even at home at the time of this event. (Was he thought to be visiting the neighbor known as the flirty “blonde b**? If so, it may have been motive for a rage event with PR) In fact in the Larry King interview, ST threw out at JR that he wasn’t there, and JR fired back, “I was there – “, stopped himself and ST replied/queried, “You were there?” JR did not respond. (Oops, JR almost screwed up the intruder theory.)

Sorry if this isn’t cohesive (and I could change my theories tomorrow.) Like you, bettybaby00, I also feel liberated on this thread! All posted, JMHO.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

IMO, Patsy killed JonBenet deliberately. No one else was involved. There was no staging for police. Everything that was done was done by Patsy for Patsy as part of a psychotic fantasy revolving around an imagined relationship with a supernatural being, the fear of judgment by that God and the fear of death. What people mistakingly take as staging for police had symbolic meaning known only to Patsy. This includes the ransom note. There were two aspects to what was done to the body: the ligatures were suspension devices, the body was posed and viewed and then taken down, placed in the small room, wrapped and the duct tape applied to set the kidnapping scenario up in Patsy's mind. The ransom note is full of the ideas that swirled in Patsy's mind that night and plagued her for many years.

The goal was not to kill JonBenet but to make an Angel out of her.

Patsy herself said after the funeral "JonBenet is in Heaven with God awaiting her mother's arrival and it won't be long." Patsy put JonBenet in that heaven to complete the fantasy and in her mind assure her life after death.

As the dedication in DOI says:

Wherever we go ...
Whatever we do ...
[We're gonna go through it together ...]

 

[bettybaby00]

Some interesting points to consider....as you mention, these questions may never be answered, unless we somehow get a full confession. Which after all this time seems unlikely.

Some of the following has been covered before, iso this is just some additional thoughts.

JB had a lot of abrasions on her. To me this would point to a struggle with either her brother or her mother. If it were BR, then it follows he may have struck her with something. If it were PR, either struck or flung. But one can’t assign a “time” to these abrasions, so leaving that for now. It’s just that these abrasions contribute to the concept of a “rage” event.

In the BDI line of thought if JB screamed before she was struck by BR, one or both parents may have shown up. (IMO, they were not asleep because of the presence of PR jacket fiber in the painting tote and in the neck ligature and JR’s Israeli shirt fibers in the brand new Bloomies. They were still dressed.) It could be that BR had tied JB around the neck with something (not necessarily the ligature cord), in one of their sex games, and after a scream, when the parent(s) came running, BR was sent to bed.

If BR is involved, which seems a very likely theory to me, I think he was responsible for the head bash, and if Kolar is to be believed, the prior sexual contact. I'm beginning to believe that if your above scenario happened, it may have been "obvious" that JRB was being assaulted in that way prior to the head bash. I don't believe BR had any involvement in of the staging.

So wondering also about the decision not to call 911. I know the posts about “hiding” this for image sake and protecting BR or themselves. But it doesn’t lead so easily to the explanation of the strangulation. The 3 possibilities: 1) JB’s body weight caused her to collapse into what her neck was tied with (by BR?) 2) A ligature tied by PR, and actually tightened, connected to her mental instability that night, or a rage 3) JR making that strangulation decision on his own, to hide family involvement and/or to hide being associated with public perception that he’d been molesting his daughter, whether he had been or not. #3 idea would be one reason the two seemed so estranged after the police had arrived.

For me there is no evidence that I have seen that she was "suspended" in anyway. So for me, #1 is out

#2-3 all could be possible. I've stated before the motivation for the cover-up is the prior sexual contact. Maybe the parents or perhaps just PR knew that something was going on before that night. Or found out just then, b/c when they arrived after her scream, it was obvious what had been going on.

Further on the lack of a 911 call for help. A head strike might be explained as an unfortunate accident between kids. The “playing doctor” was something the housekeeper and a few outside friends purportedly knew about and kept close to their chest to try to keep it out of the tabloids (a few internet comments from people who knew them; I’m not linking it though). But the strangulation meant a “forever” cover-up. Even if it were a self-strangulation, it still points to something pretty dark in the household.

Yes, something definitely dark in that household. Something was in those medical records. JR could also be responsible for the prior abuse, but either way that is the motivation for the cover-up IMO. Remember the quote from Wetcht?

Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well known forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, the father would have been arrested," he has said.

And then the article further quotes...

The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

That's the motivation for me. Kolar makes a very compelling argument for it being BR, and given how much he knows that we don't, I have to give his conclusion a lot of weight.

My question would be and it’s likely not answerable: Was the decision to point to an intruder/inside job/someone out to “get even with JR” made prior to or after her strangulation? If prior, it seems like someone decided the “pointing anywhere else” idea was enhanced by the strangulation, and the strangulation would also mean JB could never tell what happened to her if by remote chance she did survive the strike. (A calculatingly cold decision) If after, then just do the best one can with the already complete strangulation, someone adds a stick (moo JR) to make it look like a garrote.

One other thing on the strangulation: The medical experts claimed the paintbrush jab came shortly before death; so if I understand this correctly, whoever inserted the paintbrush also would be likely associated with the ligature strangulation.

Whose decision was it not to get JB help? Was it JR’s alone? PR’s alone? Did they discuss it together, but someone made the final decision? Leading me to the further speculation on the part of LE . . . There was another thought once among LE and relayed by ST that the $64,000 question was whether JR was even at home at the time of this event. (Was he thought to be visiting the neighbor known as the flirty “blonde b**? If so, it may have been motive for a rage event with PR) In fact in the Larry King interview, ST threw out at JR that he wasn’t there, and JR fired back, “I was there – “, stopped himself and ST replied/queried, “You were there?” JR did not respond. (Oops, JR almost screwed up the intruder theory.)

Sorry if this isn’t cohesive (and I could change my theories tomorrow.) Like you, bettybaby00, I also feel liberated on this thread! All posted, JMHO.

It's possible that the Rs believed she was already dead when they began to stage, including the strangulation. It's also possible that one of them could be that cold blooded and did it to finish her off. My guess would be JR. I think this is Kolar's theory as well... That's how I read it anyway. Although he illustrates the inconsistencies in PRs statements, I think he focuses much more on JRs. To me he does that for a reason. As for the over-the-top staging: in the other thread people were pointing out other, similar crimes--seemingly loving parents callously murdering their children. There was also another common element to those stories. They all tried to blame some unknown, crazy intruder/stranger. You could even point to jodi arias as well for that element. Two major components of this case have made it so difficult to "solve." The crime scene itself is a confusing mess of contradictions. Between the actual crime, the staging, and the undoing it's almost like investigators had to deal with 3 crimes scenes in one. The other significant factor was is the Rs ability to thwart the investigation from the very beginning. Their connections, and highly paid defense team were very successful in keeping the police at bay. Most other suspects can't afford that kind of "defense." We only have to look at all those other examples that were cited, and the jail terms those perpetrators are serving b/c of their crimes.

Whew...liberating huh!

 

[Venom]

<snip>

Whose decision was it not to get JB help? Was it JR’s alone? PR’s alone? Did they discuss it together, but someone made the final decision? Leading me to the further speculation on the part of LE . . . There was another thought once among LE and relayed by ST that the $64,000 question was whether JR was even at home at the time of this event. (Was he thought to be visiting the neighbor known as the flirty “blonde b**? If so, it may have been motive for a rage event with PR) In fact in the Larry King interview, ST threw out at JR that he wasn’t there, and JR fired back, “I was there – “, stopped himself and ST replied/queried, “You were there?” JR did not respond. (Oops, JR almost screwed up the intruder theory.)

Sorry if this isn’t cohesive (and I could change my theories tomorrow.) Like you, bettybaby00, I also feel liberated on this thread! All posted, JMHO.

Good post.
Do you know where I could find more info on the theory that JR wasn't home that night?

 

[questfortrue]

Good post.
Do you know where I could find more info on the theory that JR wasn't home that night?

There was some suspicion on the part of LE, but their suspicions were never confirmed. JR interview 1998 contains several questions about attractive blonde neighbors. ST, 4 years later, considers the question whether either JR or PR had left the home the night of the homicide. It’s an interesting read for other perceptions by ST, too.
http://crimejusticeandamerica.com/sthomas2 Interview Nov. 2000 (Credit to OTG for originally mentioning this article. ST corrects the statement about blonde hair on a bat in the backyard to blonde hair on a golf club in the 1st interview in May 2000 http://crimejusticeandamerica.com/sthomas1 )

 

[Venom]

Thanks. I have some reading to do.

 

[Teresa]

I used to be a head start teacher. I was the program "expert" on sexual abuse. The bathroom isssues
both children showed are red flags. Children show regresssion over illness by mild regression.
Bed wetting or occasional accidents not poop issues. This is a huge red flag for sexual abuse. If Burke abused Jon benet it had been learned behavior. JR needs to be looked at in this case. CPS would have been looking seriously at this angle.

 

[bettybaby00]

I used to be a head start teacher. I was the program "expert" on sexual abuse. The bathroom isssues
both children showed are red flags. Children show regresssion over illness by mild regression.
Bed wetting or occasional accidents not poop issues. This is a huge red flag for sexual abuse. If Burke abused Jon benet it had been learned behavior. JR needs to be looked at in this case. CPS would have been looking seriously at this angle.

Plus how often did JRB wear the pull-ups?

 

[bettybaby00]

I used to be a head start teacher. I was the program "expert" on sexual abuse. The bathroom isssues
both children showed are red flags. Children show regresssion over illness by mild regression.
Bed wetting or occasional accidents not poop issues. This is a huge red flag for sexual abuse. If Burke abused Jon benet it had been learned behavior. JR needs to be looked at in this case. CPS would have been looking seriously at this angle.

Question for you--or any one else that has experience in this area.

I know it is believed that a child will soil themselves in an attempt to be less "desirable" (sorry can't think if a better word). Is it more common for a child to do this in their bed, if the abuse is taking place in their bed? Such as the abuser visits them during the night?

TIA.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Traumatic child abuse need not be sexual or even physical.

Let's get beyond Freud OK?

And to think anyone can see into a child's mind to determine they smear to appear undesirable is laughable.

 

[Teresa]

Question for you--or any one else that has experience in this area.

I know it is believed that a child will soil themselves in an attempt to be less "desirable" (sorry can't think if a better word). Is it more common for a child to do this in their bed, if the abuse is taking place in their bed? Such as the abuser visits them in bed.

Tried to answer but I'm going nuts on my kindle! Need to get on my laptop to do so.Tomorrow or Monday.

Teresa

 

[lawstudent]

Has anyone compiled a list of cases involving similar head injuries? I feel like a major key to this case is how that head injury was caused. It's so severe that I tend not to go with accident or even moment of rage, although it's possible. It just seems like she was hit so hard that it was intentional, which doesn't fit with many of the popular theories. I also don't give much weight to the scream because it's hard to prove that happened and was JonBenet. So hitting her to silence her also never really made a ton of sense to me, especially considering that person would have to have an object readily in hand. Again, anything's possible, but I would like to know how other children with similar injuries received them.

 

[bettybaby00]

Traumatic child abuse need not be sexual or even physical.

Let's get beyond Freud OK?

And to think anyone can see into a child's mind to determine they smear to appear undesirable is laughable.

Excuse me?

If anyone can provide the comment from Kolar's book I'd appreciate it. I can't ATM, but it's has been discussed here. If my use of the word "desirable" offends you, well then you didn't get my parenthetical.

I really don't appreciate my post being labeled "laughable" by you. I've noticed you are a poster who makes pretty controversial posts, and also comments about having your views negatively commented on, so I don't get where you're coming from. Maybe next time try stating you don't agree, rather than being sarcastic and dismissive.

 

[Tawny]

Question for you--or any one else that has experience in this area.

I know it is believed that a child will soil themselves in an attempt to be less "desirable" (sorry can't think if a better word). Is it more common for a child to do this in their bed, if the abuse is taking place in their bed? Such as the abuser visits them during the night?

TIA.

Yes, a child will soil themselves and, in a lot of cases (I have no research to back this up, just what I know from talking to survivors), will urinate ON their molester in the act to attempt to get them to stop.