Rebecca Nalepa - suicide or murder? #7

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So, what do you think LE is leaning towards...........

Suicide, staged like a murder - vs - Murder, staged like a suicide

IMO, if it were murder staged like suicide, the murderer wouldn't have left RN's hands & feet bound. Surely if there was any planning at all, it would have occurred to the murderer that bound hands & feet would be suspicious. If this is murder, I believe it would be a rage murder, the killer wanted to punish her & didn't give a second thought to how her body would be found.

As far as suicide staged like murder, that one is more difficult for me to imagine. Only RN could give us the answer to that one, so if it was a suicide, we will probably never know for sure what she was thinking, may she RIP.
 
IMO, if it were murder staged like suicide, the murderer wouldn't have left RN's hands & feet bound. Surely if there was any planning at all, it would have occurred to the murderer that bound hands & feet would be suspicious. If this is murder, I believe it would be a rage murder, the killer wanted to punish her & didn't give a second thought to how her body would be found.

As far as suicide staged like murder, that one is more difficult for me to imagine. Only RN could give us the answer to that one, so if it was a suicide, we will probably never know for sure what she was thinking, may she RIP.
I think it would show irregardless if they unbound RN that she had been bound. imo
 
Well it's a little bit too "unique" for me. Must be a little bit too "unique" for police, or why have they not declared this to be a suicide already?
How does someone who appeared to be perfectly rational while talking to her sister kills herself in such a bizarre way just a short time later?

~~~Bolded by me

I spent nearly an hour on the phone with my father the night he committed suicide and had absolutely no idea that those were his intentions. At least not at the time.

Later, looking back I revisited each and every word he had said to me and realized that, without saying it, he was saying goodbye to me. As the last person he spoke with, I spent the next 10 years living with an inconsolable guilt for not having "heard" what he was really saying. My niece is still living with those guilt feelings three years after my sister committed suicide.

They had both been quite rational, not depressed, and seemed upbeat in their demeanors. It wasn't until later that we were able to look and listen in retrospect and we realized they were both bidding us farewell. Without subsequent deep examination and dissecting of their words and actions, there was no indication at the time that we were witnessing their finals words and actions.

People who commit suicide are focused on their goal. If they let slip out some little clue that might tip off the listening party, then their plan is potentially foiled and they will not accomplish that which they intend to do. If they had indicated that they were distraught or depressed, it might have (and likely would have) raised warning bells to their listeners.

By acting "fine," as Rebecca's sister has stated that Rebecca was that night, no alarm bells were sounded and Rebecca was able to end her life as she wished (this is assuming that she did indeed commit suicide).

My point is, after all of that drivel, that one need not be acting bizarre, depressed, distraught, sad, or anything but normal just before committing suicide. In fact, quite often you will hear of people committing such an act who have been described as being overly happy or seemingly quite content, effectively shocking those who knew them by their suicide. This is because once the decision has been made to commit suicide, the person has finally found their relief and no longer is in a suffering condition. They are happy with their decision and know that, after their final act, they will be at an eternal peace.
 
Well she couldn't have been "suffering" for long. The child just had an accident.
He was not dead yet. When did she make this "decision" to become at peace with it?
 
(Quoting my own post because I hadn't made myself plain, and Ms. Irene cut off the power before I could elucidate.)

We've all wondered what could have made things so bad for Rebecca that she would commit suicide. What if GS (14 yrs old) did leave at the 'crack of dawn' on the day that Max fell? What if the hysterical 13 year old female who called 911- and didn't know the correct address- was
Rebecca's sister? How much worse that would have made everything for RN...

OTOH, perhaps someone assumed that Rebecca was Jonah's daughter!

I have a daughter and I raised my niece. From the time they were about 11 years old, I for all intents and purposes had 4 girls, as wherever we went, they each brought along a friend.

This included walks, drives, grocery shopping, day trips and vacations. There would be at least 2 extra kids for dinner every night, and my home was the neighborhood 'hang out'.

I liked it, as I knew where my girls were.

Anyway, reason for the long blab, is I am sure Jonahs daughter often had a friend along, on walks or whenever. That could easily be the 's'in girl's.
 
IMO, if it were murder staged like suicide, the murderer wouldn't have left RN's hands & feet bound. Surely if there was any planning at all, it would have occurred to the murderer that bound hands & feet would be suspicious. If this is murder, I believe it would be a rage murder, the killer wanted to punish her & didn't give a second thought to how her body would be found.

As far as suicide staged like murder, that one is more difficult for me to imagine. Only RN could give us the answer to that one, so if it was a suicide, we will probably never know for sure what she was thinking, may she RIP.

From day 1, IMO it was a rage murder: it has all signs of revenge and punishment, only to be assuaged by inflicting the ultimate humiliation by leaving the victim naked, totally defenseless. A result of pent up anger. Temporary insanity. Sloppy. Very very sad tragic case.
 
No jokes... watched Law & Order the other night. Episode included a hanging death investigated as suicide, murder, or auto-erotic asphyxiation gone wrong. What jumped out at me: Discussion of the apparently standard procedure to put a scarf or cloth around the neck as protection from rope abrasion.

At the same time, if I recall correctly, LE ruled out AEA early on. What evidence would so handily facilitate the latter conclusion at such speed--and prior to autopsy--if not some recognition that the crime scene was indeed staged?
 
No jokes... watched Law & Order the other night. Episode included a hanging death investigated as suicide, murder, or auto-erotic asphyxiation gone wrong. What jumped out at me: Discussion of the apparently standard procedure to put a scarf or cloth around the neck as protection from rope abrasion.

At the same time, if I recall correctly, LE ruled out AEA early on. What evidence would so handily facilitate the latter conclusion at such speed--and prior to autopsy--if not some recognition that the crime scene was indeed staged?

Great post CalElliot. Serendipitous indeed. So does art mimic life or does life mimic art?:crazy:
 
~~~Bolded by me

I spent nearly an hour on the phone with my father the night he committed suicide and had absolutely no idea that those were his intentions. At least not at the time.

Later, looking back I revisited each and every word he had said to me and realized that, without saying it, he was saying goodbye to me. As the last person he spoke with, I spent the next 10 years living with an inconsolable guilt for not having "heard" what he was really saying. My niece is still living with those guilt feelings three years after my sister committed suicide.

They had both been quite rational, not depressed, and seemed upbeat in their demeanors. It wasn't until later that we were able to look and listen in retrospect and we realized they were both bidding us farewell. Without subsequent deep examination and dissecting of their words and actions, there was no indication at the time that we were witnessing their finals words and actions.

People who commit suicide are focused on their goal. If they let slip out some little clue that might tip off the listening party, then their plan is potentially foiled and they will not accomplish that which they intend to do. If they had indicated that they were distraught or depressed, it might have (and likely would have) raised warning bells to their listeners.

By acting "fine," as Rebecca's sister has stated that Rebecca was that night, no alarm bells were sounded and Rebecca was able to end her life as she wished (this is assuming that she did indeed commit suicide).

My point is, after all of that drivel, that one need not be acting bizarre, depressed, distraught, sad, or anything but normal just before committing suicide. In fact, quite often you will hear of people committing such an act who have been described as being overly happy or seemingly quite content, effectively shocking those who knew them by their suicide. This is because once the decision has been made to commit suicide, the person has finally found their relief and no longer is in a suffering condition. They are happy with their decision and know that, after their final act, they will be at an eternal peace.

Cleo, I am so so sorry. I cannot begin to imagine the pain and sorrow you have carried with you, the continuous looking back, the wondering 'what if' and 'if only I had...'

I do believe that once a person makes the final decision, it is somewhat euphoric. Ironically it's their loved ones that need more attention. For fear of sounding terse, I think if anyone who has taken their own life could send a message to those left behind it would be "don't let this become about you." You said it so well, Cleo: '… once the decision has been made, the person has finally found relief..'
 
I am so sorry for you and your family, cleo612. GB all of you!
 
I hope this isn't too graphic for everyone. I'm trying to understand the time frame following MS's fall on the stairs and where the family might have been in the organ donation process on the morning of July 13th. My previous timeline indicates that we know little about what happened on the 14th and 15th. My initial thoughts were that they were trying to come to grips with the idea that Max was gone, but other things stating he was dead and it was being announced on the 17th and a private family memorial on the 18th don't really jive with that. What if they were doing the donations on the 14th and 15th? Could they have made that decision on the night of the 12th? The night following his accident, the night of Rebecca's death?

http://www.organdonor.gov/organDonationProcess.asp#process3
Organ Donation: The Process
U.S. Government Information on Organ and Tissue Donation and Transplantation

Trying to Save a Life: At some point, a potential donor is admitted to a hospital because of illness or accident. Most donors are victims of severe head trauma, a brain aneurysm or stroke. Healthcare professionals work hard and long, doing everything possible to save the patient's life while maintaining the patient on mechanical devices.

Testing for Brain Death: When the medical team has exhausted all possible lifesaving efforts and the patient is not responding, a physician will perform a series of tests, usually on multiple occasions, to determine if brain death has occurred. This is usually done by a neurosurgeon or neurologist in compliance with accepted medical practice and state law. Patients who are brain dead have no brain activity and cannot breathe on their own. Brain death is not coma. Brain death is death.

Alerting the OPO: In compliance with federal regulations, a hospital notifies its local organ procurement organization (OPO) of every patient that has died or is nearing death. A hospital gives the OPO information about the deceased to confirm his or her potential to be a donor. If the patient is a potential candidate for donation, an OPO representative immediately travels to the hospital.

Obtaining Consent: The OPO representative will search the state's donor registry to see if the deceased had enrolled as a donor. If so, that will serve as legal consent. If the deceased had not registered and there was no other legal consent for donation such as a driver's license indicator, the OPO will seek consent from the next of kin. When consent is obtained, medical evaluation will continue, including obtaining the deceased's complete medical and social history from the family.

Matching Donors with Recipients: If the deceased's evaluation does not rule out donation, the OPO contacts the Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network (OPTN) to begin the search for matching recipients.

The OPTN operates the national database of all patients in the U.S. waiting for a transplant. It is operated by the United Network for Organ Sharing (UNOS) under contract to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. A computer program matches donor organs with recipients based on certain characteristics. These include blood type, tissue type, height, and weight. The length of time the patient has been waiting, the severity of the patient's illness, and the distance between the donor's and the recipient's hospitals also figure into who is the best match for a specific organ. The list does not reference race, gender, income or social status. The OPTN computer system stores the matching information for all waiting patients and the OPO representative enters the same information for the donor.


A list of patients (by organ type) who match the donor is generated. Each organ is offered to the first patient on the computer match list. The transplant surgeon may determine that the organ is medically suitable for that patient or may refuse the organ for a number of reasons, such as the patient is too sick to be transplanted or the patient cannot be reached in time. Most organs (75%) go to local patients. The others are shared with patients in other regions of the country.

Maintaining the Donor: Meanwhile at the hospital, the donor is maintained on artificial support and the condition of each organ is carefully monitored by the hospital medical staff and the OPO procurement coordinator.

Recovering and Transporting Organs: The OPO representative arranges the arrival and departure times of the transplant surgical teams. After the surgical team arrives, the donor is taken to the operating room where organs and tissues are recovered in the same sterile and careful way as in any surgery. Tissue recoveries such as bone, cornea, and skin occur after organ recoveries. All incisions are surgically closed and usually do not interfere with open-casket funerals.

Time is of the essence. Organs must get to their new homes very quickly as they can remain healthy only for short periods of time after removal from the donor. The OPO representative makes arrangements for the organs to get to the hospitals of the intended recipients. Method of transportation varies with the distance the organs are traveling, and most often involve commercial and contracted airplanes, helicopters, and ambulances.

Transplanting the Organs: The transplant operation takes place after the transport team arrives at the hospital with the new organ. Typically the transplant recipient is already at the hospital and may be in the operating room awaiting the arrival of the lifesaving organ. Surgical teams work around the clock as needed to transplant the new organs into the waiting recipients.

http://classic.aacn.org/aacn/jrnlccn.nsf/0/5ebf8de743ead0fa8825674e005a8950?opendocument
Determining Brain Death
Jacqueline Sullivan, Debbie L. Seem, and Franki Chabalewski

Initial efforts to define death in this age of technological advancement included development of the Harvard criteria in 1968 by an ad hoc committee on brain death at Harvard Medical School.2 These criteria described determination of a condition known as “irreversible coma,” “cerebral death,” or brain death.2 Since the initial introduction of these criteria, the Uniform Determination of Death Act, promulgated in 1980 and supported by the President’s Commission for the Study of Ethical Problems in Medicine and Biomedical and Behavioral Research, has served as a model statute for the adoption of state legislation that defines death.3 The act asserts: “An individual, who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brainstem, is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards.”

BBM
Criteria for Clinical Determination of Brain Death
Initial requirements for clinical determination of brain death include the elements in Table 1. Cardinal findings in brain death include coma or unresponsiveness, absence of cerebral motor responses to pain in all extremities, absence of brain stem reflexes, and apnea.13

Brain Death and Organ Donation
Brain-dead patients, barring other influencing factors, may be medically suitable for organ donation. Understanding the concept of brain death is an important factor that influences a family’s decision to donate organs and tissues for transplantation. Families who are approached for donation without having all their questions about brain death answered may refuse to consent to donation.37

In order to facilitate the offer of donation, the organ procurement organization should be contacted a reasonable time before pronouncement of death to determine the patient’s suitability for donation. Once a patient is pronounced dead and the family has been given time to accept the death, the option of donation should be offered to the family. In many cases, the critical care nurse has an established relationship with the family and is encouraged to work collaboratively with the organ recovery coordinator or the designated hospital requestor to make the request for donation.39,40

If the patient will be an organ donor, mechanical ventilation is continued to maintain organ viability. If the family does not give consent for donation, mechanical ventilation should be stopped and the patient should be given post mortem care according to hospital protocol. Every patient’s family has the right to be offered an opportunity for organ donation when its loved one meets accepted criteria. Regardless of the decision, the critical care nurse can best help families as they grieve the loss of their loved one by supporting them in their choice.


This article goes on to explain the tests used to determine brain death. Much more at link.

When my father died, the organ donation coordinator was there in a matter of hours after I arrived (He fell ill about 7:30 at night, declared brain dead by 12:00 or so, I arrived the next day from across the country) and were asking about organ donation before I had even really accepted that my father was gone and there was no going back. There was an intense period of several hours where they were asking, and asking, and asking about the donation. I won't say pushy, but insistent, and kept mentioning that time was of the essense. We ultimately did not donate, my mother couldn't accept the idea, so I eventually told them no and please stop asking but I wanted to relate that that was my experience. They had an MRI which showed the areas of damaged brain, but they still performed the tests mentioned in the above article to definitively determine he was gone. It all happened very fast.
 
No jokes... watched Law & Order the other night. Episode included a hanging death investigated as suicide, murder, or auto-erotic asphyxiation gone wrong. What jumped out at me: Discussion of the apparently standard procedure to put a scarf or cloth around the neck as protection from rope abrasion.

At the same time, if I recall correctly, LE ruled out AEA early on. What evidence would so handily facilitate the latter conclusion at such speed--and prior to autopsy--if not some recognition that the crime scene was indeed staged?

I presume it was very easy to rule AEA out, because people who participate in that sort of thing do not bind their hands behind their back.
 
I hope this isn't too graphic for everyone. I'm trying to understand the time frame following MS's fall on the stairs and where the family might have been in the organ donation process on the morning of July 13th. My previous timeline indicates that we know little about what happened on the 14th and 15th. My initial thoughts were that they were trying to come to grips with the idea that Max was gone, but other things stating he was dead and it was being announced on the 17th and a private family memorial on the 18th don't really jive with that. What if they were doing the donations on the 14th and 15th? Could they have made that decision on the night of the 12th? The night following his accident, the night of Rebecca's death?

http://www.organdonor.gov/organDonationProcess.asp#process3
Organ Donation: The Process
U.S. Government Information on Organ and Tissue Donation and Transplantation



http://classic.aacn.org/aacn/jrnlccn.nsf/0/5ebf8de743ead0fa8825674e005a8950?opendocument
Determining Brain Death
Jacqueline Sullivan, Debbie L. Seem, and Franki Chabalewski



BBM





This article goes on to explain the tests used to determine brain death. Much more at link.

When my father died, the organ donation coordinator was there in a matter of hours after I arrived (He fell ill about 7:30 at night, declared brain dead by 12:00 or so, I arrived the next day from across the country) and were asking about organ donation before I had even really accepted that my father was gone and there was no going back. There was an intense period of several hours where they were asking, and asking, and asking about the donation. I won't say pushy, but insistent, and kept mentioning that time was of the essense. We ultimately did not donate, my mother couldn't accept the idea, so I eventually told them no and please stop asking but I wanted to relate that that was my experience. They had an MRI which showed the areas of damaged brain, but they still performed the tests mentioned in the above article to definitively determine he was gone. It all happened very fast.

Wow, as a nurse in CA I often had to deal with end of life issues (in ICU). Before there was anything done about organ donation, we contacted the people in charge and a series of questions had to be answered. There were health question and viability questions. We also had criteria which mandated our calls to give the donation group the information that someone was possibly going to have an end of life, possibility or probability.

If the person was deemed to be a candidate for organ harvesting, there would be someone who would come to see the family and approach them about donating the persons organs.

I personally have never seen or heard of a person from the group being that insistent or badgering of family. I am so sorry that your family had to deal with that. That in my mind is unacceptable.

With modern medicine in place, there is a larger window of time that harvesting can occur, depending upon the overall health and well being of the donor. There is also very strict guidelines as to who is eligible to donate.

Again, I am sorry that you and your Mom experienced that.
 
I was told when I signed my Living Will that it takes about 2 weeks to disconnect life support and the opinion of two or more doctors. I guess it might be a little different in case of an accident.
 
So, what do you think LE is leaning towards...........

Suicide, staged like a murder - vs - Murder, staged like a suicide

I think they are learning toward a suicide.

I don't know if they think there was any staging done.

They may think.. it is what it is.. and that was the way it was carried out whether it was a suicide or homicide.

But I am still open to it being a homicide. I can see it both ways.

IMO
 
~~~Bolded by me

I spent nearly an hour on the phone with my father the night he committed suicide and had absolutely no idea that those were his intentions. At least not at the time.

Later, looking back I revisited each and every word he had said to me and realized that, without saying it, he was saying goodbye to me. As the last person he spoke with, I spent the next 10 years living with an inconsolable guilt for not having "heard" what he was really saying. My niece is still living with those guilt feelings three years after my sister committed suicide.

They had both been quite rational, not depressed, and seemed upbeat in their demeanors. It wasn't until later that we were able to look and listen in retrospect and we realized they were both bidding us farewell. Without subsequent deep examination and dissecting of their words and actions, there was no indication at the time that we were witnessing their finals words and actions.

People who commit suicide are focused on their goal. If they let slip out some little clue that might tip off the listening party, then their plan is potentially foiled and they will not accomplish that which they intend to do. If they had indicated that they were distraught or depressed, it might have (and likely would have) raised warning bells to their listeners.

By acting "fine," as Rebecca's sister has stated that Rebecca was that night, no alarm bells were sounded and Rebecca was able to end her life as she wished (this is assuming that she did indeed commit suicide).

My point is, after all of that drivel, that one need not be acting bizarre, depressed, distraught, sad, or anything but normal just before committing suicide. In fact, quite often you will hear of people committing such an act who have been described as being overly happy or seemingly quite content, effectively shocking those who knew them by their suicide. This is because once the decision has been made to commit suicide, the person has finally found their relief and no longer is in a suffering condition. They are happy with their decision and know that, after their final act, they will be at an eternal peace.

CLEO - THANK YOU for sharing your personal story here for us to help us understand better. I am always so grateful to the WS members who are willing to recall and discuss painful things they have experienced in an effort to educate the rest of us. I hope in some way it helps give some positive meaning to the difficult things they have been through.
 
I hope this isn't too graphic for everyone. I'm trying to understand the time frame following MS's fall on the stairs and where the family might have been in the organ donation process on the morning of July 13th.

http://www.organdonor.gov/organDonationProcess.asp#process3
Organ Donation: The Process
U.S. Government Information on Organ and Tissue Donation and Transplantation
.......Respectfully snipped for brevity

When my father died, the organ donation coordinator was there in a matter of hours after I arrived (He fell ill about 7:30 at night, declared brain dead by 12:00 or so, I arrived the next day from across the country) and were asking about organ donation before I had even really accepted that my father was gone and there was no going back. There was an intense period of several hours where they were asking, and asking, and asking about the donation. I won't say pushy, but insistent, and kept mentioning that time was of the essense. We ultimately did not donate, my mother couldn't accept the idea, so I eventually told them no and please stop asking but I wanted to relate that that was my experience. They had an MRI which showed the areas of damaged brain, but they still performed the tests mentioned in the above article to definitively determine he was gone. It all happened very fast.

IWANNAKNOW - THANK YOU for the enlightening information regarding organ and tissue donation, AND for your personal story. It truly helps me (and no doubt many others) better understand such a difficult and painful time. I appreciate all that you shared.
 
Well I'm off for a bit, I'll have to check in every now and then, I hope we see some results soon, all the best and see you back on the 10th, keep sluething everyone!
 
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but imo it doesn't add up.
LE named only 3 witnesses: JS, AS, and DS.
1. JS makes sense as he owns the house and was staying there with the victim, etc.
2. AS makes sense as he was a guest in the house, was the first to discover the victim allegedly hanging and made the 911 call
3. So why DS? She wasn't living nor staying in the house, no reports she was anywhere in the vicinity of the house, reports say she was at hospital with son

How are they defining witness? For all intensive purposes, as far as has been reported, the last non family member to see victim alive was TG from Diggidy Dog. So why isn't TG a witness? [icon for batting my head against the wall]
 
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