Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #4

[stmarysmead]

BBM

I agree with your entire post. If Rebecca wanted to end her life there were so many ways to commit suicide available to her that to go to this much trouble in a short span of time and paint a cryptic note high on a door just defies logic IMO. I have never understood how SDSO reached their conclusion of suicide. But I never understood how they concluded that the McStay family had walked into Mexico when there was evidence of murder in their house if SDSO had looked more closely and not run with what seemed obvious.

And I still would like to know at what point and why SDSO switched from their original suspicion of murder to the impossibly complicated suicide scenario.

Likewise, if AS had wanted to rape and kill, he had easier ways to accomplish both and turn suspicion from himself. He could have disposed of the body far away. He could have staged the house to look like a breakin. How come this master assassin who learned on the job how to not leave dna or fingerprints and wipe down every area he touched with a super..dryer sheet...didn’t come up with a better plan for getting rid of the body?

I think the point where they switched was when they could find not one scintilla of evidence that anyone but RZ has been in that room or handling thevkey objects.

 

[MyBelle]

The ME “met” Rebecca’s body. And in this case, the ME avoided testifying and the jury has to rely on the “expert” opinion of someone who simply read the autopsy report.

Having followed trials like Jodi Arias’ I’m somewhat leery of “expert” opinions of psychologists analyzing a dead person (Travis Alexander). In Rebecca’s case, the expert only addressed the likelihood of suicide, but could not comment on the elaborate method Rebecca allegedly chose. That method is what screams murder, which is why LE initially said it seemed to be murder.

With all due respect, the ME did not "meet" RZ's living body, he analyzed her dead body. He did not have direct access to her emotions. The other experts did not simply read the autopsy report, they analyzed all of the investigatory evidence and based their conclusion on science as well as their own education, knowledge and experience. The experts did make conclusions on her method of suicide and concluded it was neither "elaborate" (your word) nor was it all that unusual. JMO

 

[stmarysmead]

The APA which sets the standards considers armchair psychiatry to be unprofessional & unethical

"call for an end to psychiatrists providing professional opinions in the media about public figures whom they have not examined, whether it be on cable news appearances, books, or in social media. Armchair psychiatry or the use of psychiatry as a political tool is the misuse of psychiatry and is unacceptable and unethical."

https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/news-releases/apa-calls-for-end-to-armchair-psychiatry

Evidence was given by someone who met her and talked to her and does not agree with that assessment. I just need to go to the testimony.

ETA: The counselor, Karen Hancock, is a member of the county’s Psychiatry Emergency Reponse Team, and was on a ride-along that day. She was not working in that capacity when they went to the Spreckles mansion, she testified.

If the Plaintiffs felt it was “armchair”psychiatry, they could have objected to the Judge that the testimony not be allowed.

The Judge allowed the testimony. The jury Is allowed to consider that testimony in their deliberations.

 

[Tortoise]

Is anyone here going to court for closing arguments?

 

[Jessica2012]

I agree with you, Tortoise. I think that train has left the station, so to speak. All of the additional evidence that has finally been revealed in recent months has finally put an end to questions about whether or not Rebecca committed suicide. It's obvious that she didn't.

For whatever reason, SDSO failed to understand this. That's a public discussion they'll have to engage in with the community they serve.

But most people who read this story from the beginning suspected it wasn't suicide, that it was a very unusual and suspicious murder. If the bizarre third person message on the door and the elaborate bindings on the wrists and feet didn't convince you, the nude hanging certainly did. Most of the public and the news media was shocked when SDSO announced it was a suicide. This trial has finally given the public some relief. These kinds of murders affect entire communities. Having this public review and discussion has been cathartic, IMO.

That has been one of the main miscarriages of Justice in this case. Your statement BBM shows that many people made up their minds before they even knew what the evidence was“.

The “general public and the news media” don’t solve crimes. Professional do.

 

[MyBelle]

The APA which sets the standards considers armchair psychiatry to be unprofessional & unethical

"call for an end to psychiatrists providing professional opinions in the media about public figures whom they have not examined, whether it be on cable news appearances, books, or in social media. Armchair psychiatry or the use of psychiatry as a political tool is the misuse of psychiatry and is unacceptable and unethical."

https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/news-releases/apa-calls-for-end-to-armchair-psychiatry

Evidence was given by someone who met her and talked to her and does not agree with that assessment. I just need to go to the testimony.

ETA: The counselor, Karen Hancock, is a member of the county’s Psychiatry Emergency Reponse Team, and was on a ride-along that day. She was not working in that capacity when they went to the Spreckles mansion, she testified.

BBM. I totally agree with that recommendation. Such arm-chair speculation is what fuels the emotional tirades on social media and in turn taints the jury pool. It is very harmful to our system of justice.

 

[Jessica2012]

A torture murder as described with alleged “hogtying”, knife rape...indicates a stomach for cruelty and observing others pain that has not been found in AS past. No episodes of rage or anger issues have come up in testimony. So this man, once removed from this tragedy, commits his first crime in such a fiendish manner with absolutely no prior indication?

Then there is no evidence of him at the scene? And the years long scenario of how this happened...implicating DR and NR...believed like gospel here and elsewhere, has to be retracted and reduced just to him?

Couldn’t the belief in THIS scenario be just as flawed.

All reasons for doubt.

Rebecca’s history prior to JS is unequivocally troubled. She could have left her husband. As is often stated here, she had a good job and supportive family. But instead she went from man to man...running back to the Ex when she needed rescuing. His testimony that these rescues often required leaving the city they were living in. That is not the history of an emotionally healthy woman who was emotionally capable or adept at handling her problems.

What was RZ looking for in these affairs? Her Ex Husbamd testified according to Tricia’s podcast that money was important to her because of her impoverished childhood. The SD Podcast “Under The Gavel” alludes to a message in her diary “No amount of money is worth this.”...referring to her emotional pain.

This testimony was all before the jury and worthy to note to the many WS readers who come here to follow cases.

In none of these prior instances, did RZ go home to family or just become independent. She instead ran back to a man she accused of being abusive. But serial adultery in a marriage is abusive too.

I think RZ was a complicated person as humans can be. A loving daughter, kind to many, but deeply troubled and emotionally fragile. These men with money were not bringing her happiness.

Great points.

I understand from some of the court minutes that Dan Webb will be able to tell the jury how many times the Zahau’s and Greer’s case has changed since 2011. I think that is very relevant information of the jury.

<modsnip>

 

[Lilibet]

ME's use the same investigative methods after a suicide and they don't have the luxury of interviewing a "live" person. This case is no different and it reflects the same standard of practices. The ME and other experts didn't meet her and neither has the jury. That is the reason a jury is allowed to rely on expert opinions. JMO

The ME “met” Rebecca’s body. And in this case, the ME avoided testifying and the jury has to rely on the “expert” opinion of someone who simply read the autopsy report.

Having followed trials like Jodi Arias’ I’m somewhat leery of “expert” opinions of psychologists analyzing a dead person (Travis Alexander). In Rebecca’s case, the expert only addressed the likelihood of suicide, but could not comment on the elaborate method Rebecca allegedly chose. That method is what screams murder, which is why LE initially said it seemed to be murder.

With all due respect, the ME did not "meet" RZ's living body, he analyzed her dead body. He did not have direct access to her emotions. The other experts did not simply read the autopsy report, they analyzed all of the investigatory evidence and based their conclusion on science as well as their own education, knowledge and experience. The experts did make conclusions on her method of suicide and concluded it was neither "elaborate" (your word) nor was it all that unusual. JMO

I think it’s quite clear from my post that I was referring to Rebecca’s dead body and why I used the term “met.” No need to confuse my meaning.

 

[stmarysmead]

Most murderers would like to get away with the crime. The &#8220;murder&#8221; that most describe here still left the alleged perpetrator with a LOT of free time on his hands.

I&#8217;m imagining AS sitting in that room, after raping, torturing, and strangling RZ and painting his crazy message. He&#8217;s thinking...&#8221;okay, I want to get away with this. I don&#8217;t want Jonah to know or God Forbid...the police to arrest me. What to do, what to do?

&#8220;Okay, first I have to wipe down every available surface...but I have to be careful to preserve her fingerprints and dna. I have to get every speck of myself out of this room. But...then what? I&#8217;m the only other person in this entire place. What should I do with the body?&#8221;

Are we to believe that he would decide to drag her out to the balcony, leave only her footprints, sling her over and stage this bizarre scenario? and then remove all traces of himself from THAT area?

Why would he go to such lengths to remove himself from every area he touched and leave the body there, bound in such a bizarre fashion, thereby making himself subject to suspicion?

Why not stage a burglary? Or leave her in bed...with none of the bindings etc still on her. Why not leave the front door ajar or stage a struggle in the kitchen and leave her there?

It makes no sense to me that he would do this genius job of removing all trace evidence of himself and yet not stage the &#8220;murder&#8221;to look like a robbery?

The bizarre aspects of this case do not match a murderer trying to cover his tracks. Perhaps, it was a suicidal woman trying to make her death look like murder...so as not to shame her beloved and very religious family.

 

[Tortoise]

Yay for Attorney Greer. The defense has nothing but scare tactics and manure up its sleeve. Can't face up to truths, like defending their Autopsy Report, but sure can run a smear campaign.

 

[MyBelle]

Great points.

I understand from some of the court minutes that Dan Webb will be able to tell the jury how many times the Zahau&#8217;s and Greer&#8217;s case has changed since 2011. I think that is very relevant information of the jury.

<modsnip>.

<modsnipped>. I do recall the nonsense about a "witness" insisting he rode past on a bicycle that night and spotted Dina pounding on the door. This went on until the Plaintiff acknowledge to the court that Dina was proved to be at Rady per security video.

 

[Lilibet]

Likewise, if AS had wanted to rape and kill, he had easier ways to accomplish both and turn suspicion from himself. He could have disposed of the body far away. He could have staged the house to look like a breakin. How come this master assassin who learned on the job how to not leave dna or fingerprints and wipe down every area he touched with a super..dryer sheet...didn&#8217;t come up with a better plan for getting rid of the body?

I think the point where they switched was when they could find not one scintilla of evidence that anyone but RZ has been in that room or handling thevkey objects.

I can&#8217;t answer the question about why AS didn&#8217;t come up with a better method of staging or getting rid of the body without violating specific instructions on this thread. All I will say is that it appears to me to be a message. I think SDSO could have found evidence of murder if the investigation was thorough. JMO

 

[Jessica2012]

Even the defense has abandoned any pretext of claiming this was suicide. That's why they objected to allowing the jury to vote on a split verdict. They know that the jury believes this was murder. The evidence is too strong:

The presence of Rebecca's fingerprints on the blade of the chef's knife indicating she used it to try to cut her rope bindings

Evidence that she was raped with the handle of the steak knife

Autopsy evidence that shows she was strangled twice: once manually and a second time from the hanging

Evidence that someone cleaned up the crime scene, wiping away fingerprints and blood?

The defense is working furiously at the last minute in an attempt to suppress Rebecca's autopsy report from jury deliberations. Why would they do that? Why would they want to hide what's in an autopsy report - the most common kind of evidence used in a murder trial?

With all due respect, if the defense “knew that the jury believes this is murder”, they would have it declared a mistrial. The jury is not to make a conclusion until they have heard all of the case and the Judge tells them to do so.

The Defense proved that Rebecca never held the knife that way. Greer had misidentified one of the fingerprints on it. What he said was her index finger was her little finger. The SDSO senior fingerprint expert testified to that. There were also no cut marks in the rope.

SDSO blood tech said the blood on the handle of the knife was not from the vagina, and proved that with epithelial counts.

SDSO senior fingerprint tech said she saw no evidence of anything being wiped down.

It is the Plantiffs that are tryng to keep Rebecca’s autopsy out, not the Defense:

ROA 1078 03/26/2018 Objections (To Defenants Special Jury Instruction Re Evidentiary Value of Death Certificate and Autopsy Report) filed by Pari Z. Zahau, on her own behalf, and on behalf of Rebecca Zahau, Deceased.

How can they have a good case when they don’t want the jury to see this if ME Lucas was so incompetent?

There’s another song from the musical Chicago, about the lawyer and client that try to “dazzle dazzle “ and fool the jury:

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle
Razzle Dazzle 'em
Give 'em an act with lots of flash in it
And the reaction will be passionate
Give 'em the old hocus pocus
Bead and feather 'em
How can they see with sequins in their eyes?
What if your hinges all are rusting?
What if, in fact, you're just disgusting?
Razzle dazzle 'em
And they’ll never catch wise.

 

[stmarysmead]

But that&#8217;s just the issue here..they didn&#8217;t find that evidence to indict AS. So how can you destroy a man on what you wish investigators had found?

And now no matter if one believes it&#8217;s murder, one has to believe that it&#8217;s AS.

And yes, I agree with Yay! for Mr. Greer. The family has had their day in court.

So has AS. Where I disagree is with calling any portion of the defense case &#8220;smear tactics&#8221; just because it is tawdry or unpleasant testimony about RZ.

Both sides had negative things to say to build their case. I think both sides were very, very well represented.

I just don&#8217;t believe that AS murdered RZ.

 

[Jessica2012]

RZ had a normal history, no different from most women in the US. It's wrong to continue making false allegations and posting unsubstantiated rumors about her. WS is a victim friendly forum.

If you can't substantiate your allegations, you need to stop posting them.

I really hope that &#8220;most&#8221; women in the US are serial adulterers and shoplifters. Rebecca is the one that did these things. It was testified to in court that she had at least three affairs. Is Jonah counted in that? She was still married to Neil when they met. Her divorce was not final until Feb.2011 and it was Neil that filed.

This is her history. No one is bashing her. Just stating the facts of her life.

 

[Jessica2012]

Masturbating to Asian bondage *advertiser censored* and Asian rape *advertiser censored* indicates a &#8220;stomach for cruelty and observing others pain&#8221; I&#8217;m my opinion.
.

You must not have listened to Attorney Greer&#8217;s interview with Tricia. He stated the *advertiser censored* was viewed Monday night, when only Rebecca <modsnip>were there, and before Adam arrived at the Mansion Tuesday evening. He would not elaborate, but said that &#8220;it wasn&#8217;t important&#8221;.

 

[MyBelle]

You must not have listened to Attorney Greer&#8217;s interview with Tricia. He stated the *advertiser censored* was viewed Monday night, when only Rebecca <modsnip> there, and before Adam arrived at the Mansion Tuesday evening. He would not elaborate, but said that &#8220;it wasn&#8217;t important&#8221;.

Now that you mention it, iirc, Attny Bremner insisted it was possible for the *advertiser censored* to be accessed remotely in an effort to divert attention from RZ <modsnip>. I do wonder if the Monday night *advertiser censored* viewing will be brought up in the defense closing arguments.

 

[Betty P]

You must not have listened to Attorney Greer&#8217;s interview with Tricia. He stated the *advertiser censored* was viewed Monday night, when only Rebecca <modsnip>were there, and before Adam arrived at the Mansion Tuesday evening. He would not elaborate, but said that &#8220;it wasn&#8217;t important&#8221;.

Masturbating to any kind of *advertiser censored* while observing a woman hanging dead from a balcony is still pretty cruel. Adam's guest room looked right out onto the area where RZ was hanging. It would have been clearly visible to him.

 

[stmarysmead]

You must not have listened to Attorney Greer&#8217;s interview with Tricia. He stated the *advertiser censored* was viewed Monday night, when only Rebecca and <modsnip> were there, and before Adam arrived at the Mansion Tuesday evening. He would not elaborate, but said that &#8220;it wasn&#8217;t important&#8221;.

Mr. Greer has given his all to the family&#8217;s case. I think he can be taken at his word.

 

[Betty P]

I really hope that &#8220;most&#8221; women in the US and serial adulterers and shoplifters. Rebecca is the one that did these things. It was testified to in court that she had at least three affairs. Is Jonah counted in that? She was still married to Neil when they met. Her divorce was not final until Feb.2011 and it was Neil that filed.

This is her history. No one is bashing her. Just stating the facts of her life.

Lol. The statistics on shoplifting might surprise you. Try reading your local paper some time.

Do you have a link to a source that claims Rebecca was a serial adulterer? TIA. If not, perhaps you should be using a different modifier.

But, yeah, that's what the defense always does when they're worried about losing their case: Blame The Victim

"She had it coming..she only had herself to blame.."