Retrial for Sentencing of Jodi Arias #4

[TrialWatcher]

AZLawyer - " I think she'll use it to attack Nurmi whether she approved it ahead of time or not. You think she'll suddenly develop an aversion to lying? "

Absolutely the point I was making. Can you imagine what a living hell she has made life for Nurmi? She was already setting him up for slaughter in the interviews after the verdict. What a client. If she makes viewers blood run cold, Kirk Nurmi must have continual nightmares. The Defense Team has been subject to a lot of hostility but they appear to have done their best. I'd love to know why they plumped for the most ridiculous defense? Much of this must have been led by the arrogance of Arias. I read somewhere that Nurmi specialised in defending sexual offenders. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, it's easy to see why Arias felt he was a good fit, initially. Her language is parroted from ALV and Nurmi - in terms of describing the sexual and physical abuse allegations. Did no one ever sit her down (apart from Detective Flores) and advise that the truth would be a better defense? Or was she still under her, "No jury will ever convict me" illusion?

 

[Hatfield]

Drugs can help stabilize mood but the major Borderline symptoms are behavioral and do not respond to medication. This is why most psychiatrists prefer to treat any mood disorder over BPD. Behavior modification is difficult enough for most citizens; it is near impossible for one who remains immature emotionally, whether by choice or by circumstance.

There is a contradiction in the very thought process of BPD persons, much like "I hate you; don't leave me." Imagine living your life this way. Some work hard to get better because they want to. Others may not do as well because they don't have to. It is obvious which one the killer is.

Thank you and others for helping to explain some of the physchological aspects of this case. Not just on this case, but on many others here. We here at WS have some very knowledgeable people in the phychology profession and for me, it has been quite a learning curve.

I must admit that I used to cringe whenever case discussions would start to talk about the inner physch of the criminals and what possibly could be going on in their heads when they commit such heineous crimes, but over the years here I have found it quite fascinating. Some perps are just plain evil of course, but others like JA do have some sort of phychosis that really shows.

Its also interesting for me because in college I did take Physch 101, and I was totally not interested at the time, but as I have followed these cases, I really think I would have enjoyed the profession. I finally found my calling in life to be a phychologist or physchiatrist. The only problem is my career is already over. LOL (went down another path).

 

[SweetT]

So, what about the killer and her borderline personality disorder? Originally, borderline was so called because it was a disturbance bordering on psychosis. Right on the edge. B.P.D.s form immediate attachments. They idealize the other person and their feeling is intense. The connection becomes stormy if Borderline perceives a slight or a separation occurs or a conflict arises. Emotions shift to intense anger & dislike.

We can see this in the killer's relationship to Nurmi, where she fought hard to keep him, he was "the only one" who could prepare her case & represent her. By contrast, look at them now. B.P.D.s view the world in extremes: all good or all bad. We've seen her relate to her family members in these same modes. Of course, it was conspicuous in her treatment of Travis Alexander.

Borderlines are prone to unstable moods that last for hours, as well as episodes of impulsive aggression. Their actions are unpredictable. There is distortion in their sense of self, evident in Arias, who is a narcissist. Their goals change, as was apparent when she was following The Law of Attraction and The Secret. Values undergo change and she professed such reformation owing to her Mormon studies & baptism.

Cognition, i.e., perception, reasoning & intuition are all gnarled & deformed due to her perspective on the world. In jail, she is being given drugs for this and to stabilize her moods. I would have included the explanation of her disordered personality in the post on psychological mitigation but I was running long as it was. Also, I realize Sleuths bring their own opinions on Borderlines to the topic.

Bpds are rarely if ever harmful or kill anyone except themselves.. Just from what I've read.. They're a danger to themselves more than anyone else. With jodi that's not the case so obviously she has something else or a combination of problems jmo

 

[TrialWatcher]

"We can see this in the killer's relationship to Nurmi, where she fought hard to keep him, he was "the only one" who could prepare her case & represent". - Tuba

Tuba's point perfectly illustrates the parallels between Arias pushing Travis from his pedestal (as described by Dr DeMarte) and trying to remove Nurmi. Once she had done with them, they have to be crushed, disposed of. The patterns in her behaviour now seem predictable. Juan Martinez nailed this by stringing her stalking extremes together - even when critics couldn't quite see where he was going. Can we all recall the pundits questioning his route in prosecution? Now it seems like that was the only way to play it. Juan Martinez untangled years of mess and smoothed a clear line out for the jury. I wish we could see this trial too.

 

[krkrjx]

Bpds are rarely if ever harmful or kill anyone except themselves.. Just from what I've read.. They're a danger to themselves more than anyone else. With jodi that's not the case so obviously she has something else or a combination of problems jmo

They are rarely more dangerous to others than persons without the disorder. IOW, the disorder does not cause someone to kill. It can, however, lead to fits of anger that persons without the disorder could more effectively get a grip on. Borderline persons who go untreated and do not care to better their circumstances tend to be insensitive to the feelings, wants, needs, and even the basic human rights of others. And they firmly believe nothing is ever their fault; when they are confronted with wrongdoing they will insist it is someone else's fault.

A person with Borderline Personality Disorder who also has an accompanying psychopathy would be one extremely dangerous individual. I would not want to cross them and then meet them in a dark alley.

Arias is a psychopath, possibly also Borderline. She is extremely dangerous and will probably always be extremely dangerous. There are some people, specifically in the Southwest United States, who should be very afraid if she ever gets out. IMO.

 

[MeeBee]

Bpds are rarely if ever harmful or kill anyone except themselves.. Just from what I've read.. They're a danger to themselves more than anyone else. With jodi that's not the case so obviously she has something else or a combination of problems jmo

There is quite obviously a co-morbidity of anti social personality going on. She's a sociopath with a strange mixture of BPD. ASPD is the part that allows her to kill without guilt or remorse, leave phone messages after the murder and pretend like nothing happened, lie like a pro, etc.

ETA: krkrjx said everything much better than I did.

 

[krkrjx]

What I was always warned of when dealing with a BPD individual is that they do not respect boundaries and one must be unwavering in enforcing boundaries once they have been set.

I believe Travis was frustrated over Jodi not respecting boundaries and further that he may have been too soft personality-wise to successfully set boundaries for Jodi. Certainly after a person slashes your tires you would take action to keep them from getting too close to you in the future. But that was not the case with Travis. I believe he knew what he should do, but he had a hard time being strict and laying down the law. He was a confident individual; what motivational speaker isn't. But he was not assertive enough in the areas of his life where he needed to be.

I am convinced Travis knew in his heart that Jodi could be big trouble but he for reasons of his own pushed those thoughts aside. I think he entertained the thought that Jodi could harm him--he did say once to a friend that if anything happened to him it would be Jodi--but I do not think he seriously believed she would kill.

Sad, that is, because if Travis had not fought what his own common sense was clearly telling him, he would probably be alive and well today.

 

[thefragile7393]

Krkrjx has been spot on. Those with personality disorders have a very difficult time with boundaries....and you have to be firm and consistent. Depending on the person it can be extremely difficult to deal with. Travis just has no clue what he was dealing with.

 

[janx]

Drugs can help stabilize mood but the major Borderline symptoms are behavioral and do not respond to medication. This is why most psychiatrists prefer to treat any mood disorder over BPD. Behavior modification is difficult enough for most citizens; it is near impossible for one who remains immature emotionally, whether by choice or by circumstance.

There is a contradiction in the very thought process of BPD persons, much like "I hate you; don't leave me." Imagine living your life this way. Some work hard to get better because they want to. Others may not do as well because they don't have to. It is obvious which one the killer is.

Thanks for this explanation. I've always wondered whether personality disorders were a matter of neurological chemistry or just a choice of behavior based on environment. Maybe a combination? But I'm leaning toward the latter.

 

[krkrjx]

Krkrjx has been spot on. Those with personality disorders have a very difficult time with boundaries....and you have to be firm and consistent. Depending on the person it can be extremely difficult to deal with. Travis just has no clue what he was dealing with.

I lived with one, and I made many mistakes. Tough love is a great concept but it is not as easy to enforce as you might think.

 

[thefragile7393]

Not a professional janx....but I can help. One can be born this way....and one can be made this way. In my non professional experience I have seen it happen with appropriate parenting and I have seen it in cases where lots of intense emotional and mental abuse have happened to a person as a child.... It warps their developing personality and their development.

 

[krkrjx]

Thanks for this explanation. I've always wondered whether personality disorders were a matter of neurological chemistry or just a choice of behavior based on environment. Maybe a combination? But I'm leaning toward the latter.

Many mood disorders are due to chemical imbalance in the brain. That is why they respond in most cases to medication. Borderline is not a chemical imbalance. It is behavioral, and not yet well understood. In time they may find a physical cause but until then, it cannot be medicated away.

 

[thefragile7393]

I lived with one, and I made many mistakes. Tough love is a great concept but it is not as easy to enforce as you might think.

Ohhhhhh yes! That is no joke at all....it can be hard enough in a professional setting ....outside of that I can only get a small idea through others experiences. Gah

 

[krkrjx]

Not a professional janx....but I can help. One can be born this way....and one can be made this way. In my non professional experience I have seen it happen with appropriate parenting and I have seen it in cases where lots of intense emotional and mental abuse have happened to a person as a child.... It warps their developing personality and their development.

You are right...environment plays a big part in how all people develop mentally, but in particular those with predisposition to any type of mood or personality disorder.

 

[thefragile7393]

You are right...environment plays a big part in how all people develop mentally, but in particular those with predisposition to any type of mood or personality disorder.

Yes exactly right. I've seen it more in fans that have a history of some form psych diagnosis going on.

 

[janx]

Many mood disorders are due to chemical imbalance in the brain. That is why they respond in most cases to medication. Borderline is not a chemical imbalance. It is behavioral, and not yet well understood. In time they may find a physical cause but until then, it cannot be medicated away.

Interesting.I appreciate your take on this. At what point can we (if at all) say that a person lacks the capacity to make certain choices, and if the person does lack that capacity, is it always a neurological blip? Where do logic and chemistry intersect? I mean we can't always simply say that a person has no free will--and I can't believe I'm saying this because I teach different views on this subject...:floorlaugh: I think that JA did and does have free will and that she made a choice, but that choice was based on the fact that she grew up in a sort of throw-back culture in which she was expected to be a waitress and "find a man." This could be a drastic assumption on my part, but I haven't seen any evidence that she had any inclination to do anything else.

It could well be that simple, couldn't it?

 

[krkrjx]

I think Jodi showed symptoms of real trouble way back in childhood. We have heard about scrapes with all her family members and she moved out at 15, I believe. Then she had issues with her boyfriends before Travis--where she exhibited abnormal traits on numerous levels and clearly did not respect boundaries. I believe she felt entitled to do those things and did not think she was in the wrong.

The murder, however, is different IMO. She knew she was in the wrong, at least from a legal standpoint. The coverup after is clear evidence of that but the covert operations just preceding and during the trip to Mesa are also evidence that she knew without a doubt that what she was doing was wrong. Illegal. Not right. Not justified. Not a result of an illness that made it impossible for her to control her actions.

IMO.

 

[janx]

I think Jodi showed symptoms of real trouble way back in childhood. We have heard about scrapes with all her family members and she moved out at 15, I believe. Then she had issues with her boyfriends before Travis--where she exhibited abnormal traits on numerous levels and clearly did not respect boundaries. I believe she felt entitled to do those things and did not think she was in the wrong.

The murder, however, is different IMO. She knew she was in the wrong, at least from a legal standpoint. The coverup after is clear evidence of that but the covert operations just preceding and during the trip to Mesa are also evidence that she knew without a doubt that what she was doing was wrong. Illegal. Not right. Not justified. Not a result of an illness that made it impossible for her to control her actions.

IMO.

I agree with your first paragraph and didn't find her behavior too abnormal. Checking on them showed strong behavior. Most of us have had to assess a situation like that.

The murder was something else.

 

[jbc]

day 23 of trial, @~2 hr, 30 sec, JA says that Matt called JA's mother.
Is this the call to the mom that said that JA's messed up on the head and needs someone to come get her?? (mom admitted this in Det Flores interview).
JA mentions this so casually...as if it was nothing....

Again, I really want to hear from Matt McM. He knows the real deal.
But, Juan doesn't want him to get on the stand and be sympathetic to JA, so that's why he's threatening the illegalities. (thanks previous poster on this).
Darn, wouldn't we really like to get the scoop from Matt M?

 

[Love Never Fails]

day 23 of trial, @~2 hr, 30 sec, JA says that Matt called JA's mother.
Is this the call to the mom that said that JA's messed up on the head and needs someone to come get her?? (mom admitted this in Det Flores interview).
JA mentions this so casually...as if it was nothing....

Again, I really want to hear from Matt McM. He knows the real deal.
But, Juan doesn't want him to get on the stand and be sympathetic to JA, so that's why he's threatening the illegalities. (thanks previous poster on this).
Darn, wouldn't we really like to get the scoop from Matt M?

I pretty much think with all our discussions that we have figured out the scoop. Everyone, not just MM, but I mean everyone who dealt with Jodi knew her head was messed up. Some feared her, likely her own family. Putting MM and those other people on the stand would cause people to feel sorry for the murderer. As krkrjx stated, she knew the murder was wrong. She conceived the idea, planned the details, all the way to stealing a gun from her grandparents, renting a car, dyeing her hair, driving 1000 miles, getting gas cans from DB, leaving a voicemail after the killing, driving to see a future boyfriend, writing notes in her diary, and so on. This was cold blooded, premeditated, especially cruel and heinous. That is about all I need to know. WHO DOES THAT?

ETA: and don't forget the ways she wanted MM to help with the fake pedophile letters. And to think that he would....who does that either?!!!....he needs some jail time. His wife must have serious issues with him over that little plan.