Retrial for Sentencing of Jodi Arias - Day 3

[Tuba]

Interesting to me that the law considers murder for gain as about the most damnable. Greed or need killings are to me not as depraved as revenge, hate, terrorism or rage motivated murders. However, there is great deterrent value in condemning crimes for profit because they are not​ lit by passionate emotion and a robber, for instance, can reconsider in the light of legal penalties.

 

[ElleElle]

She was really not counting on how much clean up there would be. She anticipated a lot of it, but there was so much more fighting than she expected. She knew she'd have to have a gun! The laundry, that's where she blew it. She ran out of time when she was doing the wash and chucked in the camera. She deleted the photos, but she didn't know they'd survive the washing machine. To Detective Flores: "Really?!?"

Another possibility is in her tousle to clean up, the camera ended up in the washer with the bedding. She could've been frantically searching for the camera to put it back in its original packaging, but had to get out because was running out of time.

When did her phone come back on? When she made the call to Gus?

 

[ElleElle]

I dont think her plans were all that flawed...its the execution of the plans that she failed at. Using her card instead of cash, buying all the gas at the same place, and leaving the camera were mistakes she could have avoided and the palmprint should have been wiped. These things were her downfall. She was actually successful with getting in and out of AZ without getting caught. She was smart but she was stupid too. Using her bank card was really stupid.

She even was pulled over in Utah! re: upside down license plate.

Which leads to another act of premeditation, IMO.

I still think she changed her plates over to AZ tags in CA once she decided to go under "radar" to Mesa. The first AZ tags came off the BMW. Which, could have been an excuse for Jodi to see Travis. A payment.

 

[janx]

Dr. Horn testified that was a typo. He was crystal clear in his testimony about the damage caused by a shot to the head in this area of the brain

http://jodi-arias.wikispaces.com/Horn+Final

"Your report stated there was no damage to the dura mater membrane. Can you explain how the brain can be damaged without damaging the membrane?"
Horn: I, ah, let me review my report... it’s the usual protocol with the report so clearly the dura mater had to have been perforated so that would be a typographical error in my report.

Horn: A bullet as it passes through something soft like brain, will create what is called a temporary cavity, and you see that in ballistic gelatin when you test fire a bullet through gelatin. You see it in the ballistic labs. It’s the same concept in the brain. You get a very large open area that squashes the brain around it into the skull around it, and then that will collapse back down ... and you may be able to see a wound track, but in this case, we don’t. But it damages areas of the brain away from the frontal lobe, even only passing through that one part of the brain, other areas of the brain are involved and damaged.
Martinez: So if it was the first shot, what is your opinion as to whether or not Mr. Alexander would have been incapacitated?
Horn: He would have been incapacitated.
Martinez: And would this have been an immediate sort of reaction, seconds?
Horn: Yes.
Martinez: By seconds, how many seconds would you indicate?
Horn: A second or two. He would collapse to the ground and be unresponsive.
Martinez: I don’t have any other questions. Thank you.

Yes. He could not have been clearer on this point, and he testified more than once. The defense is going to try to hammer away at his testimony because they want to try and minimize Travis' suffering. In addition, the "shot first" story changes the dynamic: she shot him first and went into the fog; she can't remember any of the goriest details, like almost decapitating him. It's a very convenient story. The problem is, it makes no logical or scientific sense whatsoever.

 

[Tuba]

With no visuals & tweeters coming from all sides including their own opinions, the Flores & Horn examinations were reporting like cross fire. Someone tweeted Flores said he originally misunderstood the order of the wounds (which I believe, based on 2013 testimony). Others were tweeting that Flores offered an opinion, that the shot came first. Wow! You really had to be there. But Flores is not a medical examiner & I don't think he would refute the medical opinion of Dr. Horn.

I should add, nor do I think Flores would offer a refutation based on evidence at the scene because he would have offered that in his testimony last year.

 

[LinasK]

Another heinous aspect of this is the length of time and great effort she put into this murder. Jodi could not accept that after everything she had tried to get Travis to commit to her the only time he was willing to devote to her was late night booty calls or phone sex. He had turned 30 and decided he was going to find a girl to marry and she was not going to be that girl.

So she decides that she will kill him. But she thinks she is smart enough to do it and not be caught. She stages a clumsy robbery of grandpas gun. Rents a car away from her hometown. Borrows gas cans from an ex, dyes her hair and after calculating the mileage one more time, buys an extra gas can so she can enter and exit Arizona without stopping to refuel. She fills up and turns off her cell phone. Instead of hitting the freeway north to SLC she drives all night to Mesa. Once there she waits until it's just the two of them and he's not suspecting anything terrible after she'd been in his home 12 hours sleeping, having sex, taking pictures of each other. Then she sticks a knife into his chest while he's cornered in the shower. This is where her plan goes south. He didn't just fall down and die! Oops. She hadn't counted on him fighting back. He had defensive wounds from trying to grab her knife, he had defensive wounds on his feet. Nine stabs in his back as he tried to get away. There was so much blood. How dare he not just fall after the first wounds in the shower? He was supposed to be contained there. Not much clean up. But now there was blood everywhere. No possible way to clean it up. She had to realize at some point that her blood was at the scene from her cut finger. All she could do was run away. She had driven a thousand miles to commit a murder

What a great summary! This is material for Juan.:clap::clap::clap:

 

[LinasK]

I was thinking about this the other day wondering what other murders resulted in the death penalty in Arizona. Wendy Andriano is the only one in my memory and I felt she deserved it too. Her husband was already dying, just not fast enough for her. Anyone here know what other crimes landed people on death row in Arizona?

Looking at how Travis was killed and her ridiculous stories afterward (from two intruders to "are you sure it was me?" to fog to pedophilia to "I'm a survivor"), I can't see how Jodi wouldn't deserve death.

There was one who had her son killed, but she got off Death Row recently- Debra Milke, IIRC???

 

[LinasK]

True. And her lies are very manipulative and childish. Like telling Juan that she returned the gas can to the same Walmart shortly after she left the Starbucks that's in the same shopping center lot. How dare everyone just not accept her word?! Instead, Juan produces a witness to testify that every receipt from every register was gone through and that gas can had NOT been returned for cash as Jodi had lied. Juan asked her: why did you have three cans in SLC if you still maintain you returned the third? Then, not relying on her TWO receipts she had saved for her gas she bought after leaving Ryan's home...Juan pulls out her bank statement which showed three separate gas purchases within minutes of each other at the same Tesoro station.
Did she really expect no one to look into her transactions? To just believe things because she said so?
Unbelievable!

Thank you, you just clarified for me what I didn't get- why it was important that she was found with 3 gas cans rather than two.

 

[LinasK]

I dont think her plans were all that flawed...its the execution of the plans that she failed at. Using her card instead of cash, buying all the gas at the same place, and leaving the camera were mistakes she could have avoided and the palmprint should have been wiped. These things were her downfall. She was actually successful with getting in and out of AZ without getting caught. She was smart but she was stupid too. Using her bank card was really stupid.

Actually, I think having an upside down license plate will surely attract LE's attention faster than chancing them being able to read your license plate!:doh:

 

[MeeBee]

There was one who had her son killed, but she got off Death Row recently- Debra Milke, IIRC???

Angela Simpson is a woman in Arizona who killed a man in a very brutal and heinous way. He was the only one she killed and there is seemingly no real reason she did it.

She was up for the death penalty but got life in prison. When they asked her if she got what she deserved, she said no, I deserved the death penalty.

I'd agree with that.

Jodi might not get the death penalty. But she deserves it.

 

[LinasK]

Arizona is a very Conservative state in general. This is the one time when I think that is a good thing. They are far more inclined to hand out the Death Penalty in general male or female, than Florida.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Youd think any gunshot wound to the head would be incapacitating, but that is not always the case, and a .25 caliber isn't very strong, but you bring up a very good point. The very clean and pristine gun casing is something I definitely can't explain in my scenario. Unless it got kicked around? I don't know.
I am just explaining my beliefs and things that have bothered me. Hell, this whole case and the ruthlessness of it bothers me in general

Eta- arghh I was trying to quote you LinasK.

BBM

I don't think anyone would want to test that theory out? JK

Actually back in the day more hit men used .22 pistols when they did their hits more than any other caliber and a .25 is a little bit bigger.

I have never felt the shot came first. Imo, the forensic evidence just doesn't support it.

Just the pressure of the bullet entering the skull and into his frontal lobe would be enough to incapacitate him. While Horn said it wasn't fired within inches or in contact with Travis' face he did say it could have been fired from 1-2 feet away. The bullet is traveling at a high rate of velocity and it not only enters his skull but goes it the frontal lobe that would immediately affect his motion and reasoning skills before it lands in his cheek. To do that it has to be ripping a path of destruction.

There is just no possible way that the spent bullet casing could land on a pool of already congealed blood if the bullet came first. Travis had already been stabbed and his throat cut before the shot was fired last. That bathroom was already a bloody mess before the gun was fired. That is why the only blood found on the casing was underneath it where it landed. None found anywhere else not even splattered on the sides, top or the opening.

I think when she was dragging him back to the bathroom to stuff him in the shower she heard air escaping from his lungs and thought he was still alive. And that is why she fired one shot into his head to make sure he was dead before dragging him into his shower coffin.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Yes. He could not have been clearer on this point, and he testified more than once. The defense is going to try to hammer away at his testimony because they want to try and minimize Travis' suffering. In addition, the "shot first" story changes the dynamic: she shot him first and went into the fog; she can't remember any of the goriest details, like almost decapitating him. It's a very convenient story. The problem is, it makes no logical or scientific sense whatsoever.

I honestly don't see how that will work for the defense. It didn't even work for her first jury. By their verdict on the cruelty aspect they told her in an around about way it just didn't matter which came first. Sort of like which came first the chicken or the egg. Its obvious they didn't believe she was in a fog either. By Nurmi continuing to pound on this one issue all he is really doing is showing how cruel this murder truly was.

And this jury is not to retry what the previous verdict has already decided.

ITA!

I thought Horn was consistently clear in all of his testimony and he was also clear when he was first asked which came first and he was only asked that question when the DT deposed him before trial.

It just isn't going to matter with this jury either, imo. Only a monster would think the way she murdered Travis wasn't depraved and cruel. No one can look at those photos and think anything else but this poor man was cruelly murdered three different ways.

I don't know if Juan will be able to play any of Jodi's prior testimony but the jury really should know when she was under oath the first time she never said once that she shot Travis in the shower as Nurmi is suggesting now. By KN offering this to this jury it makes it even more egregious than her shooting him at the end when he is close to death. And if she shot him in the shower before he could even try to escape from her that means even KN doesn't believe her pack of lies that it was self defense. I was stunned when he asked those questions. I was like WTH? What happened to Travis chasing her (cough-cough) yet she was still able to leap up on the shelving to get the imaginary non-existent gun?

 

[krkrjx]

Debra Milke did not kill her son. She was convicted and sentenced to death for a murder two men committed. No evidence has convinced me she put them up to it. The most I can see against her is that she was not a good mom in that she let her son be cared for and go on outings with a man who eventually killed him. Milke was convicted based on testimony of her ex-husband (yeah right, no agenda there) and her sister who was somewhat plain compared to Debra's above-average looks and who resented her. She had no proof Debra had any involvement in the crime but stated under oath that she believed she did it because she would not put anything past her including murder (testimony born out of extreme sibling rivalry, IMO). And most importantly, testimony of a detective who lied in his report and in court, and in the statement he penned for her to sign during interrogation. He was proven a liar in other cases as well and this was instrumental to Debra being released from death row.

This is the JA retrial thread but the question of death penalty disparity looms so I feel the need to post this. I wish to clarify that while I do not see that a case was proven against Milke I accept that others do see proof and I do not intend to debate the issue. I am not against the death penalty for heinous crimes where there is no doubt who did it but how scary it is that you could be sentenced to death based on lies told by others--not just by LE, but your ex!

Citizens and media people, defense attorneys and human rights advocates are now all up in arms over Arias possibly being sentenced to death when some other killer wasn't. I get that. But where was all this passion when a young mother went to death row on flimsy circumstantial evidence that was for the most part fabricated by a member of LE, her ex-husband, and her sister who had an axe to grind?

Life isn't fair. That's why these things happen. But everyone knows Arias is guilty and her crime was atrocious--her parents know it, her attorneys know it, even her groupies know it. (I suspect even Alyce knows and just refuses to admit it.) Everyone who speaks out about DP disparity knows it, too, so why so much hoopla over Arias?

It may not appear to be equally doled out but if Jodi Arias is sentenced to death it is because she deserves it. I, for one, will not shed a tear.

 

[Foghorn]

Who can forget the infamous "Linebacker Attack"? (Pity jury 2.0 will miss this!) :laughing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV_sm-EtulY

 

[TrialWatcher]

TexMex contributed a great post (one of many) detailing the shower scene and Arias replaying psycho. My apologies as I can't find the post but I'm sure that others must have speculated on links to the movie. Given how unoriginal Arias is (tracing 'art') and how easily influenced by adverts, movies, music, I too have wondered about the shower scene and imitating the movie, 'Psycho'. Could Arias have tricked Travis into recreating some of the movie poses? As a joke? A parody for fun? It might explain why he ends in that strange sitting position and the contrived shower scene photos. They don't look relaxed or natural.

One of the things that confused me was when Juan Martinez agreed to stipulate that Arias wasn't holding a gun or a knife in the 'Travis' eye' photo analysis. Perhaps Juan simply wanted to avoid any risk of jury confusion? Obviously, the gun and knife made appearances very soon after the eye pic photo. Remember how Arias told Detective Flores that one of the ninjas pointed a gun at her but it didn't go off? Did she do this to Travis? The gun didn't fire initially, hence the knife? I know this is all guesswork but I'd like to hear the opinion of others.

There are so many variations and possibilities. Why take a gun and a knife? Back-up? Arias would have used the control of the gun, given a chance. It's what she wanted - to make Travis listen to her demands/commands. So many pieces make little sense, putting the puzzle together leads to different scenarios aplenty.

 

[Madeleine74]

No doubt JA has earned serious consideration of the DP in the State of AZ, according to the laws of that state, and if the jury decides to sentence her to that, she will certainly deserve it. I felt justice was served with the conviction of first degree murder. That to me was the important piece of the outcome. I realize others feel differently and that it can only be through the DP sentence that they can feel any sense of justice. I respect that. I realized that in either case she was going to the same prison, going to be in the same size cell, for decades, and probably would never be executed since the last execution of a woman was 80+ years ago.

 

[TrialWatcher]

... I felt justice was served with the conviction of first degree murder. That to me was the important piece of the outcome. I realize others feel differently and that it can only be through the DP sentence that they can feel any sense of justice. I respect that. I realized that in either case she was going to the same prison, going to be in the same size cell, for decades, and probably would never be executed since the last execution of a woman was 80+ years ago.

The Death Penalty is a punishment I never used to believe should be applied. It seems unjust that a cruel and premeditated murder carries different punishments just by stepping over a state border. Yet in recent years, I have changed my attitude somewhat The suffering of the Alexander family majorly influencing my view. I now feel that the family or loved ones of a victim should be the ultimate decision makers after guilt has been found. Who am I to offer an opinion to the family of Travis Alexander when their suffering has been on a scale I couldn't even fully imagine? If anyone grants mercy in such circumstances, shouldn't that be with the family? I know this idea would be frough with dilemmas and present more problems than solutions. If the law in Arizona includes a DP punishment and the victim's family want it, their wishes ahold be paramount. Otherwise, make the DP cover every state or scrap it.

 

[Spycraft]

Who can forget the infamous "Linebacker Attack"? (Pity jury 2.0 will miss this!) :laughing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV_sm-EtulY

Thanks for this hilarious reminder!! As absurd as it is, demonstration wise, equally as hilarious is how much stinkin talking she had to do while demonstrating. That girl can never just shut up!

 

[TexMex]

TexMex contributed a great post (one of many) detailing the shower scene and Arias replaying psycho. My apologies as I can't find the post but I'm sure that others must have speculated on links to the movie. Given how unoriginal Arias is (tracing 'art') and how easily influenced by adverts, movies, music, I too have wondered about the shower scene and imitating the movie, 'Psycho'. Could Arias have tricked Travis into recreating some of the movie poses? As a joke? A parody for fun? It might explain why he ends in that strange sitting position and the contrived shower scene photos. They don't look relaxed or natural.

One of the things that confused me was when Juan Martinez agreed to stipulate that Arias wasn't holding a gun or a knife in the 'Travis' eye' photo analysis. Perhaps Juan simply wanted to avoid any risk of jury confusion? Obviously, the gun and knife made appearances very soon after the eye pic photo. Remember how Arias told Detective Flores that one of the ninjas pointed a gun at her but it didn't go off? Did she do this to Travis? The gun didn't fire initially, hence the knife? I know this is all guesswork but I'd like to hear the opinion of others.

There are so many variations and possibilities. Why take a gun and a knife? Back-up? Arias would have used the control of the gun, given a chance. It's what she wanted - to make Travis listen to her demands/commands. So many pieces make little sense, putting the puzzle together leads to different scenarios aplenty.

I think you are on to something. I recall seeing this comparison online during the trial.