Revenge or justice? Does anyone feel guilty of their behavior

[sweetmop]

I also detest Baez and wonder if that's just because he's defending that monster (and the way he's defending her) or I hate that perpetual smirk on his face. Guess I've got some more soul searching to do!

Oh wow, I feel the same way about Baez, autumnlover!
He does have a perpetual smirk on his face!
He's so very smug, arrogant, and pompous, at least that's how he comes across! He's just like his client, he thinks he's a movie star! Yuck!!!
And for me, I think that anyone that proclaims Casey to be an 'innocent victim', well, I just can't stand them!
He and the murderous mother of the year make quite an infamous duo!
The sight of each of them makes me sick!

 

[Rumpole]

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Oh my!
Hercule, you did a wonderful job. that is a beautiful tribute to the memory of our little Angel! Wow, very powerful, with the great music and the pictures of beautiful Caylee. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Thanks
I wish I could do more!

Each time I watch and see what KC destroyed, I find it impossible to not be VERY ANGRY.

 

[Theonly1]

Since this is a thread about our own personal feelings here goes:

Sure, I feel that twinge of guilt about my feelings toward the A family. But I feel a larger pull of ANNOYANCE that it is pointed out repeatedly that perhaps I/we should not feel the way we feel. Seriously. I don't need anyone being my conscience monitor here on WS (especially if my opinion is contrary). [This is a general statement and not directed to any particular poster.]

I never advocated burning Casey at the stake. In fact, I'd like for her to have the best representation possible because I am an Orlando resident and I'd like to see her tried ONCE. I think every defendant deserves a fair and unbiased trial. I support moving the trial out of Orlando, if necessary. And if she is acquitted, then I will accept that too. I believe in our system.

Further, I'm not a huge advocate of the death penalty. I know it exists for a reason and I know it is acceptable in Florida. I think it should be reserved for the "worst of the worst". Sadly, in my opinion, Casey isn't the worst of the worst. To me, Bundy is the type the death penalty was "made for" and I was utterly sickened by the party and carnival atmosphere when he sat in the electric chair. Example: I spoke up in class when they fried him and got shouted down by the people who were out for blood. I thought he should have the DP but I didn't think we (as a society) should be PARTYING (drinking beers, shouting "Fry, Bundy, Fry" and behaving like it was a kegger). I remember saying, "But he has a MOTHER!" And if Casey is convicted I won't throw a party.

Regardless of all this, I get extremely frustrated by the A's because of the enabling (my opinion). I think it still goes on and it makes me so upset that no one from that family has really "stood up" for Caylee (my opinion).

I was a searcher in the woods looking for her; I got bit, saw snakes, got rashes, got overheated, etc. [Woah is me]. I responded to Cindy's "get off your @sses and look for my grandchild". I watched this family and have come away so DISAPPOINTED with them--with all of them--and with almost every move they have made. Have I walked in their shoes? Nope. But I sure as the sun rises would not have made all the missteps they have made.

Have I been overly critical? Perhaps. Have I been a "good Christian"? Probably not.

It irritates me that just because I "feel in my gut" and see in all the released evidence that Casey is likely guilty that many times I'm lumped in with the "burn her at the stake" mob type. We are not seated jurors here. We are allowed to come here, form opinions, sleuth things out, and, yes, be biased.

Just because I don't see the **good** (at this stage of the crime) in everyone involved doesn't mean I need to examine *my* conscience.

 

[Theonly1]

Respectfully snipped:

The wheels of justice turn slowly and in the meantime, our impatience to see justice served may at times be misinterpreted. It may also be heightened as more and more evidence is released, further solidifying already solid opinions. "What's the hold up?" "Why can't justice be served now?" "Why must we continue to be subjected to this insult to our intelligence as well as our sense of basic right and wrong?" It is a bit frustrating to wait for justice. Justice delayed is justice denied, they say. But then again, he who laughs last...

.

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of Truth and Love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it, always."

--Mahatma Gandhi

 

[chaingangal]

Following this crime has given us just a glimpse of the sickness that existed in this household. How many times had this family enabled their daughter to commit felonies with no reprecussion? An innocent child was murdered and thrown away like garbage. There were other choices this entire family could have made that might have saved this childs life, but failed to do so. I don't don't care what label you put on it revenge, justice or karma this twit needs to pay the ultimate price.

 

[LCoastMom]

Thank you for the educational link! Read breifly and then added to fav's.

http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/co...ys/Maslow.html

Not to be argumentative, but OP didn't state things "way down" rather stated things at the top of the Maslow Pyramid! Right? Just saying...

Sorry I know this is O/T but looking at the link puts a whole new spin on KC's state of mind.

I hope this isn't "too far out there" but if you compare this list with KC's June 21 diary page and what she's done, her motives are completely clear. Caylee was holding KC back from moving into a new social peer group, it's actually chilling how accurate this is.

• Alderfer's Hierarchy of Motivational Needs

• Level of Need / Definition / Properties

1. Growth:/ Impel a person to make creative or productive effects on himself and his environment / Satisfied through using capabilities in engaging problems; creates a greater sense of wholeness and fullness as a human being
   
   
   
2. Relatedness:/ Involve relationships with significant others / Satisfied by mutually sharing thoughts and feelings; acceptance, confirmation, under- standing, and influence are elements
   
   
   
3. Existence:/ Includes all of the various forms of material and psychological desires./When divided among people one person's gain is another's loss if resources are limited

 

[Rumpole]

Rendition as in handing KC over to Big Bertha in general population and letting nature take it's course?

I don't think it will happen but we can dream.....

Well, that sounds ok by me, but what I was hinting at was "Exrodinary Rendition" (extra-judicial transfer of a person to another Country) CIA stuff?

I think a ticket to Peshawa for special interviews would be useful?

 

[TotallyObsessed]

I truly cannot explain why I feel the way I feel about KC, et al. I am a very, very compassionate person. I cry at movies. I can't watch the TV advertisement with Sarah MacLaughlan and the abused animals without having to change the channel. I am a very, very emotional and empathetic individual. I didn't let my kids watch BAMBI for crying out loud when they were young, because I remember the horrible, horrible feeling I had when I was a child and I watched that movie. My kids joke to this day that they are the only kids on the planet who has never seen Bambi!! I guess it had to do with the mother-child bond. And as I type this, maybe that is exactly why I hate KC. She broke the most sacred of bonds, that between a trusting child and a mother.

 

[ecs5298]

If life on the inside is ever thought to be better than freedom of living on the outside, we are doing something seriously wrong. I say throw out the TV's, radio's, commissary provisions and let's get back to basics.

Prison to me is supposed to be a great big time out. A time to reflect about the transgression, to acknowledge it was wrong and to think about why they shouldn't do it again. An apology is always good too.

If I put my kids on time out in front of cartoons they aren't going to learn much. And that is my fault.

Exactly!

No luxuries, no TV's, no conjugal visits, no smokes, no snacks.

Personally I'd like to see big rocks being made into little rocks.

Make it a punishment, make it a deterrent.

 

[LCoastMom]

Well, that sounds ok by me, but what I was hinting at was "Exrodinary Rendition" (extra-judicial transfer of a person to another Country) CIA stuff?

I think a ticket to Peshawa for special interviews would be useful?

AHHH, now that's the best idea I've heard in weeks! No need to worry about special treatment then!! (I'll even chip in for the ticket!!) She can borrow my doggy crate and fly baggage class!!

 

[Rumpole]

Awww, now that's the best idea I've heard in weeks! No need to worry about special treatment then!! (I'll even chip in for the ticket!!) She can borrow my doggy crate and fly baggage class!!

I do think that many are indicating that severe punishment (Revenge) is an important part at least of "Justice" in this case?

 

[Theonly1]

I do think that many are indicating that severe punishment (Revenge) is an important part at least of "Justice" in this case?

I can't speak for anyone else. The most severe punishment is off the table (the DP). So, at most, if Casey is found guilty and sentenced to the full weight of the law, she can serve her entire life in prison with no possibility of ever getting out. At this stage, THIS is the MOST EXTREME punishment our law allows.

Let's examine what that's like in Florida prison:

1. Prisoner will get food, clothing and shelter.
2. Prisoner will be in an air-conditioned area (cell if solitary). This is considered "comfortable" compared with our Florida poor who cannot afford air-conditioning.
3. Prisoner will get hygenic needs met (showers, haircuts, grooming).
4. Prisoner is able to marry.
5. Prisoner is able to communicate with friends and family (have visits, mail and phone calls).
6. Prisoner is able to watch TELEVISION, have radios, etc.
7. Prisoner is able to get high school degree and higher level education.
8. Prisoner is able to have REC time (weight train, shoot hoops, etc.).
9. Prisoner is able to have decent medical care (example: dental care, any necessary surgery, medical needs met). I know of PLENTY of Florida people (lower middle class) who currently have dental work to be done who cannot afford it.
10. Prisoner is able to socialize with other prisoners (I'm sure they manage to form relationships, have sex, etc.).

Is this a cruel life? I don't think the totality of 1-10 smacks of cruel or unusual punishment. In fact, it's pretty much giving the prisoner everything that one would have (middle class existence) outside of the prison without having to do anything (other than commit the crime) to attain these privileges. I think they give the prisoners more and more perks not only because of their "rights" but because it tends to keep the prisoners "happier" and "calmer" (example: Television). In school I took many courses on law enforcement, criminal justice, etc., and the people who worked at the prisons (who were working on THEIR degrees) said it was hell when the prisoners could not get their TV. I guess these perks are like an opiate to many.

I can see why WS'ers who may be having trouble paying their own bills in this economy are rubbed wrong by hearing about the air-conditioning, color tv (wonder if it is also High Def), cable, dental care, ability to attain a college education, and so on, that is provided to our Florida prisoners.

It's a far cry from Cool Hand Luke (busting big rocks into smaller rocks) and society knows it.

One reason the State metes out the punishment is because it is not supposed to be "personal" (i.e., revenge). There are many theories of crime and punishment and I'll not bore ya to death with them.

My Opinion: I don't think we should torture our prisoners. But I also don't think they should be entitled to privileges of the middle class without working for those privileges. I don't think it should be GAOL but I think if the prisoners want "perks" we should come up with a way for them to be productive to society. I think prison should be a place where they do not want to return! I don't think it should be a "comfortable" time-out. Imagine putting your child in "time-out" in a room with a WII, Playstation, Cable TV, friends to play with, food to eat, etc. What good is it doing?

 

[ibyoungr]

I can't speak for anyone else. The most severe punishment is off the table (the DP). So, at most, if Casey is found guilty and sentenced to the full weight of the law, she can serve her entire life in prison with no possibility of ever getting out. At this stage, THIS is the MOST EXTREME punishment our law allows.

Let's examine what that's like in Florida prison:

1. Prisoner will get food, clothing and shelter.
2. Prisoner will be in an air-conditioned area (cell if solitary). This is considered "comfortable" compared with our Florida poor who cannot afford air-conditioning.
3. Prisoner will get hygenic needs met (showers, haircuts, grooming).
4. Prisoner is able to marry.
5. Prisoner is able to communicate with friends and family (have visits, mail and phone calls).
6. Prisoner is able to watch TELEVISION, have radios, etc.
7. Prisoner is able to get high school degree and higher level education.
8. Prisoner is able to have REC time (weight train, shoot hoops, etc.).
9. Prisoner is able to have decent medical care (example: dental care, any necessary surgery, medical needs met). I know of PLENTY of Florida people (lower middle class) who currently have dental work to be done who cannot afford it.
10. Prisoner is able to socialize with other prisoners (I'm sure they manage to form relationships, have sex, etc.).

Is this a cruel life? I don't think the totality of 1-10 smacks of cruel or unusual punishment. In fact, it's pretty much giving the prisoner everything that one would have (middle class existence) outside of the prison without having to do anything (other than commit the crime) to attain these privileges. I think they give the prisoners more and more perks not only because of their "rights" but because it tends to keep the prisoners "happier" and "calmer" (example: Television). In school I took many courses on law enforcement, criminal justice, etc., and the people who worked at the prisons (who were working on THEIR degrees) said it was hell when the prisoners could not get their TV. I guess these perks are like an opiate to many.

I can see why WS'ers who may be having trouble paying their own bills in this economy are rubbed wrong by hearing about the air-conditioning, color tv (wonder if it is also High Def), cable, dental care, ability to attain a college education, and so on, that is provided to our Florida prisoners.

It's a far cry from Cool Hand Luke (busting big rocks into smaller rocks) and society knows it.

One reason the State metes out the punishment is because it is not supposed to be "personal" (i.e., revenge). There are many theories of crime and punishment and I'll not bore ya to death with them.

My Opinion: I don't think we should torture our prisoners. But I also don't think they should be entitled to privileges of the middle class without working for those privileges. I don't think it should be GAOL but I think if the prisoners want "perks" we should come up with a way for them to be productive to society. I think prison should be a place where they do not want to return! I don't think it should be a "comfortable" time-out. Imagine putting your child in "time-out" in a room with a WII, Playstation, Cable TV, friends to play with, food to eat, etc. What good is it doing?

ITA, I also believe that Casey will acclimate to her new life.. like any chameleon that easily lies about her life.

She also will probably view this as a relief that having to ever speak to her mother again.

Revenge or Justice... hopefully she will see life with out cell phones and sex a punishment.

Can't wait to the 48 hours mystery on her in a few years when she is allowed to talk about her case.

 

[Rumpole]

ITA, I also believe that Casey will acclimate to her new life.. like any chameleon that easily lies about her life.

She also will probably view this as a relief that having to ever speak to her mother again.

Revenge or Justice... hopefully she will see life with out cell phones and sex a punishment.

Can't wait to the 48 hours mystery on her in a few years when she is allowed to talk about her case.

Personally, I take this case very personally and I want to see KC punished. It would cheer me up!

I can not get past what KC destroyed:

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I understand "Humane" and not descending to the level of those we punish. I am not proposing Torture. Just a miserable time. I do not feel at all guilty about wanting KC to suffer for a long time.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I don't want her to have more children. That would be unjust to me.

I don't feel quilty for exploring all the possibilities of what may have happened. I have written things that I have regretted. I'm most interested in the truth and seeing justice served. I would like to understand what led to Caylee's death to gain understanding of how something like this can happen.

Mostly I feel guilty about going off topic. I learned on the astrology thread that I have a Gemini rising which causes me to have a fleeting, broad focus (see I just did it again!):slap:

 

[ibyoungr]

Personally, I take this case very personally and I want to see KC punished. It would cheer me up!

I can not get past what KC destroyed:

Slide Show – 5 minutes
(May take a minute to download)


I understand "Humane" and not descending to the level of those we punish. I am not proposing Torture. Just a miserable time. I do not feel at all guilty about wanting KC to suffer for a long time.

Do not get me wrong. Personally, I would like to see a hard life of grueling labor and be fed the nastiest food possible. My religion does not allow for the DP.

Everytime I see those videos.. my heart breaks because my daughter has the same hair color and big eyes.

My heart breaks when I think that she may have seen her mother's rage more than once in her short life. Casey's look of rage may have been the last thing that little baby saw.

She has no heart, no soul and is evil in it's purest form.

I do wonder how Caylee would have turned out.

 

[LCoastMom]

I truly cannot explain why I feel the way I feel about KC, et al. I am a very, very compassionate person. I cry at movies. I can't watch the TV advertisement with Sarah MacLaughlan and the abused animals without having to change the channel. I am a very, very emotional and empathetic individual. I didn't let my kids watch BAMBI for crying out loud when they were young, because I remember the horrible, horrible feeling I had when I was a child and I watched that movie. My kids joke to this day that they are the only kids on the planet who has never seen Bambi!! I guess it had to do with the mother-child bond. And as I type this, maybe that is exactly why I hate KC. She broke the most sacred of bonds, that between a trusting child and a mother.

I hear you, I can't tell you the number of times my dh has come into the room to find me sobbing over something I read or watched on TV. But I have no tears, no empathy, no compassion for KC. Everything she has, all her problems, she brought on herself.

Maybe it is all that compassion for Caylee that makes it possible to want her murderer brought to justice. The fact that Caylee didn't die at a strangers hand, it wasn't some fluke chance, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Caylee was with the 1 person who should have protected her with her own life.

On top of that KC left her little body in a swampy gully surrounded by trash. Then lied and denied. Caylee's little face wrapped in duct tape. It causes me physical pain to think about what that precious baby went through, so I have no trouble wanting her murderer to feel that pain too. I'm just sorry that no matter what, compared to Caylee, KC is getting off light. Unless some of the other residents of the new Casa KC take matters into their own hands, KC will never know the horrors that Caylee went through.

I can't speak for anyone else. The most severe punishment is off the table (the DP). So, at most, if Casey is found guilty and sentenced to the full weight of the law, she can serve her entire life in prison with no possibility of ever getting out. At this stage, THIS is the MOST EXTREME punishment our law allows.

Is this a cruel life? I don't think the totality of 1-10 smacks of cruel or unusual punishment. In fact, it's pretty much giving the prisoner everything that one would have (middle class existence) outside of the prison without having to do anything (other than commit the crime) to attain these privileges. I think they give the prisoners more and more perks not only because of their "rights" but because it tends to keep the prisoners "happier" and "calmer" (example: Television). In school I took many courses on law enforcement, criminal justice, etc., and the people who worked at the prisons (who were working on THEIR degrees) said it was hell when the prisoners could not get their TV. I guess these perks are like an opiate to many.

It's a far cry from Cool Hand Luke (busting big rocks into smaller rocks) and society knows it.

One reason the State metes out the punishment is because it is not supposed to be "personal" (i.e., revenge). There are many theories of crime and punishment and I'll not bore ya to death with them.

My Opinion: I don't think we should torture our prisoners. But I also don't think they should be entitled to privileges of the middle class without working for those privileges. I don't think it should be GAOL but I think if the prisoners want "perks" we should come up with a way for them to be productive to society. I think prison should be a place where they do not want to return! I don't think it should be a "comfortable" time-out. Imagine putting your child in "time-out" in a room with a WII, Playstation, Cable TV, friends to play with, food to eat, etc. What good is it doing?

respectfully snipped

It is possible at 23 yrs old, LWOP even with all the "perks" would be a fate worse than death. We can only hope! Remember the look KC gave JB when the courts refused to lower her bond? I'm seriously curious what he has been feeding her to keep her quiet and well behaved for all these months. Just based on that look and the temper tantrum she threw in August at her parents, it must be huge. A villa on a beach with hot and cold running hot boys is the only thing I can imagine.

If letting the inmates watch TV makes the environment safer for the guards who work there, I can put up with that. IMO there is so little worth watching it really isn't much of a treat. But knowing that inmates have all these privileges, with so many working class people having such severe struggles, it does make one wonder where we went wrong. I'm sure there are people in shelters all over America, tired of the day to day struggle, who would think prison sounds more like a vacation. But for most of us giving up the freedom to call a friend, catch a movie, sleep late on Sunday, make a sandwich when we feel like it or even go to a job we love, prison would be intolerable.

Regardless of what KC has done for the camera with her gf's, there is no indication KC actually likes girls "that way", no IM's or text messages with girls about "hooking up". Just think at 23 years old, GAME OVER....

Since torture has been ruled out, what I want for KC is for her to look ahead for the next 80 years and see nothing but the same drab existence. Day in day out, sleeping when she is told to, eating what and when she is told to. Magazines that are 3 years old and when she goes to continued on page 182, finds page 182 torn out. I want her to look ahead in her life and see nothing. IDK but to me that sounds like torture.

Educating prisoners with LWOP (or DP) is a waste of tax payers money, give it to those who will be reentering society in need of a job. In CA, I know DP inmates aren't entitled to education benefits. Anyone who does take the state up on an education should have to pay the state back, for at least part of it. Even if it is only in sweat equity. No one else gets a free higher education from the state anymore.

There is one other thing I want for KC, I used to think I wanted her to have to listen to Caylee singing her little songs and be surrounded by her pictures her every waking hour. But I was wrong. She doesn't deserve to look at Caylee's little face or to hear her little voice. I would like for no one to ever say Caylee's name to KC again. No pictures, no video's, no recordings. KC took Caylee's life from her, KC should have to live the rest of her life in prison with no tangible evidence of Caylee. Let the crime scene photo's be the last images she ever see's, let that haunt KC for the rest of her life.

 

[LCoastMom]

I don't want her to have more children. That would be unjust to me.

I don't feel quilty for exploring all the possibilities of what may have happened. I have written things that I have regretted. I'm most interested in the truth and seeing justice served. I would like to understand what led to Caylee's death to gain understanding of how something like this can happen.

Mostly I feel guilty about going off topic. I learned on the astrology thread that I have a Gemini rising which causes me to have a fleeting, broad focus (see I just did it again!):slap:

Once convicted, if KC were to end up pregnant in prison; if she didn't terminate, when she gave birth CPS would be waiting outside the delivery room to take custody of the babe. No looks, no holding, the baby would be removed from the room immediately. After all the complaining we have heard that KC did about Cindy being the first one to hold Caylee. That would be poetic justice.

 

[autumnlover]

Once convicted, if KC were to end up pregnant in prison; if she didn't terminate, when she gave birth CPS would be waiting outside the delivery room to take custody of the babe. No looks, no holding, the baby would be removed from the room immediately. After all the complaining we have heard that KC did about Cindy being the first one to hold Caylee. That would be poetic justice.

What if, OMG, the baby went to CA?!

 

[nyvictoria]

What if, OMG, the baby went to CA?!

The fact she turned out a daughter like Casey should make CA an immediate, hands-down unfit mother!