Australia Samantha Murphy, 51, last seen leaving her property to go for a run in the Canadian State Forest, Ballarat, 4 Feb 2024 *Arrest* #10

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JLZ said:
Just on the subject of whether there are incompetent criminal lawyers. OK, the law is a very broad topic and criminal law is only a small-ish portion of what's taught in law school. Most of what you learn as to effective practice is on the job. Second, criminal law is not where the money is. The consequence of this is that a lot of lawyers go in for more lucrative aspects, and then when times are bad and the well-paying work is less abundant, think they'll condescend to a little criminal law work just as a fill-in. And because they're inexperienced and underestimate the complexities of the business, they're not very good. So I've heard.
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I’m not sure in which jurisdiction you are, but in England and Wales, a law degree covers six aspects of law, in no particular order, contract, trusts, criminal law, torts, EU (not sure whether this is till taught post brexit), property, as well as choosing two other subjects in your final year. You are right in that we only scratch the surface in most of these topics. Things have recently changed, but if you wanted to qualify as a solicitor, you need to do the Legal Practice Course, which covered other areas of law,eg wills and probate, civil litigation and criminal litigation. Again, there is only so much you can cover in an academic year. If you wanted to be a Barrister, you needed to do the BVC (don’t know the content of that as chose the solicitor route). After those respective courses, for a solicitor you needed to cover four seats (subjects) over a two year period - this is on the job training. After that, you take another short course and sit an exam. If you pass that, you qualify.

I am a solicitor, but I don’t have professional training to represent and advise at a police station.

I do not know whether a similar route to qualifying is the same in Australia, but it may be similar because of the legal systems are similar.

In respect to instructing barristers. In the UK you can approach a Barrister to instruct directly via their clerk (I have done this in civil cases, it cuts out the middle man (eg the legal firm), however, it does get muddy if legal aid is involved.
 
ProfCluezo said:
… or some kind of incinerator/crematorium - perhaps used for deceased animals….? I raised this possibility several threads ago but it was deleted…

However personally I think the septic tank idea suggested by Kurtneverdied seems more plausible (and less complicated) than the crematorium/incinerator possibility….

Actually, now it has been suggested, I can’t believe that none of us considered this before…. Literally, possibly hiding in plain “sh#%”… !! I guess one needs to be familiar with the neighbourhood enough to know about septic tanks… and possibly “hole in the ground” bush-style toilets (if any of those still exist?). Mulching proprietors?

I wonder if police have checked the septic tanks of all homes and properties and businesses which PS potentially may have had access to?

I wonder how many plumbers PS may be connected with via his electrical work?

Dare I ask if sniffer (and/or cadaver) dogs can detect a deceased body in such degrading circumstances…? :eek:

All 100% (unceremonious) conjecture. :confused:
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I have seen it suggested before, not sure if it was your post, that the gf may of had contacts/the ability to help in the disposal. I’ve seen a mix of comments that gf went to police re suspicions and that gf was protecting him changing statements and alibi’s
 
ProfCluezo said:
… or some kind of incinerator/crematorium - perhaps used for deceased animals….? I raised this possibility several threads ago but it was deleted…

However personally I think the septic tank idea suggested by Kurtneverdied seems more plausible (and less complicated) than the crematorium/incinerator possibility….

Actually, now it has been suggested, I can’t believe that none of us considered this before…. Literally, possibly hiding in plain “sh#%”… !! I guess one needs to be familiar with the neighbourhood enough to know about septic tanks… and possibly “hole in the ground” bush-style toilets (if any of those still exist?). Mulching proprietors?

I wonder if police have checked the septic tanks of all homes and properties and businesses which PS potentially may have had access to?

I wonder how many plumbers PS may be connected with via his electrical work?

Dare I ask if sniffer (and/or cadaver) dogs can detect a deceased body in such degrading circumstances…? :eek:

All 100% (unceremonious) conjecture. :confused:
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Some very interesting points ProfCluezo. An animal crematorium!...If PS had been pondering options for disposal of human remains....Maybe he asked his girlfriend some vague questions about access to such a facility (given that she works in the veterinary sector), maybe he's been blunt, and just straight out asked her to help him dispose of the remains.
If so, maybe she mentioned this to police.
(IMO the murder occurred without anyone else being involved, but he may have believed she'd help him with disposal of remains if necessary.)

I can't believe that none of us has considered septic tanks previously either...
Can any Websleuthers elaborate on accessibility to septic tanks in the general community? How difficult would it be for a random person (for example) to go onto a random property (trespassing obviously) and place the remains inside a septic tank?
I'm guessing the usual tank processes would cause the remains to start "degrading" for want of a more appropriate word" immediately (ie for how long would the remains be detectable?)
Would thermal imaging, which IIRC police have been using in other locations for this case, indicate possible presence of human remains in a septic tank, or would the septic tank processes impede accurate thermal imaging? TIA

Mulching proprietors!!! Another feasible possibility IMO.

All JMO
 

septic tanks acces to your tank - Search Videos

www.bing.com www.bing.com

This may be of interest to septic tank afficionado's. Note the tools needed, ( and this vid clip was , obviously, done in broad daylight, plus, the finder actually knew where the tank was, for starters. Also, ,note the size of the lid to the tank. ) I , personally , did not last to the end of the clip, for reasons which will become obvious, and it is also an American tank, but AU rural tanks are not that different. And in many cases, not as large as this one.

'Can any Websleuthers elaborate on accessibility to septic tanks in the general community? How difficult would it be for a random person (for example) to go onto a random property (trespassing obviously) and place the remains inside a septic tank?'... I'd like to have a go at this , as it sounds like fun. :cool:

Usually, the septic tank is buried. A septic tank is not above ground, usually. So it is usually only known to the owner, it's not something a homeowner has signage about. It would be a hell of a job to randomly go around to random properties , looking for a septic tank. ( Don't forget, people are searching for Mrs Murphy, by now ) and without being indelicate, it would be a bit difficult to insert the body of a fully grown woman into the tank. Assuming one can find the lid. Unless the body was in parts.

To the private crematorium thingy, the human body is not that flammable, it has a high water content, but it is done professionally, and has been for centuries,.... the temperature needed is around 1600D Far. or for us in AU, around 872. C.
 
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Nikynoo said:
I’m not sure in which jurisdiction you are, but in England and Wales, a law degree covers six aspects of law, in no particular order, contract, trusts, criminal law, torts, EU (not sure whether this is till taught post brexit), property, as well as choosing two other subjects in your final year. You are right in that we only scratch the surface in most of these topics. Things have recently changed, but if you wanted to qualify as a solicitor, you need to do the Legal Practice Course, which covered other areas of law,eg wills and probate, civil litigation and criminal litigation. Again, there is only so much you can cover in an academic year. If you wanted to be a Barrister, you needed to do the BVC (don’t know the content of that as chose the solicitor route). After those respective courses, for a solicitor you needed to cover four seats (subjects) over a two year period - this is on the job training. After that, you take another short course and sit an exam. If you pass that, you qualify.

I am a solicitor, but I don’t have professional training to represent and advise at a police station.

I do not know whether a similar route to qualifying is the same in Australia, but it may be similar because of the legal systems are similar.

In respect to instructing barristers. In the UK you can approach a Barrister to instruct directly via their clerk (I have done this in civil cases, it cuts out the middle man (eg the legal firm), however, it does get muddy if legal aid is involved.
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Yes it is the same system . Sometimes the names of orgs are different, but their function is exactly the same.. In England it's the Crown Prosecutor Service, in Au it's the Dept. Of Public Prosecution. I think, in Scotland, it's the Procurator-fiscal... same function, different name.

The same system is used in about 80 different countries, based on English Common Law. These are things every websleuther should know ..:)
 
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JLZ said:
Just on the subject of whether there are incompetent criminal lawyers. OK, the law is a very broad topic and criminal law is only a small-ish portion of what's taught in law school. Most of what you learn as to effective practice is on the job. Second, criminal law is not where the money is. The consequence of this is that a lot of lawyers go in for more lucrative aspects, and then when times are bad and the well-paying work is less abundant, think they'll condescend to a little criminal law work just as a fill-in. And because they're inexperienced and underestimate the complexities of the business, they're not very good. So I've heard.
Click to expand...
It could be argued that criminal law is where the steady money is. Look around. Take a stroll down to your local court house on court day, any time of the year, and it's bustling. Most criminal lawyers I know ( those that specialise in that defence, ) and most prosecutors I know ( those that specialise in the other side of the coin ) found themselves drawn to that aspect of legal representation.

I suppose it's like this, you don't find many little boys and girls in the playground saying, 'I want to be a Gastroenterologist, or a proctologist when I grow up " , it is what they find themselves expert at and interested in during their education. Same with lawyers. I genuinely have never found any of them to feel they have condescended to criminal law as a fill in. There is also the strange ambience around criminal lawyers, among other lawyers, they are considered to be equal to the Soggies ( Special Operations Group ) of the legal trade.

​

 
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Trooper said:
It could be argued that criminal law is where the steady money is. Look around. Take a stroll down to your local court house on court day, any time of the year, and it's bustling. Most criminal lawyers I know ( those that specialise in that defence, ) and most prosecutors I know ( those that specialise in the other side of the coin ) found themselves drawn to that aspect of legal representation.

I suppose it's like this, you don't find many little boys and girls in the playground saying, 'I want to be a Gastroenterologist, or a proctologist when I grow up " , it is what they find themselves expert at and interested in during their education. Same with lawyers. I genuinely have never found any of them to feel they have condescended to criminal law as a fill in. There is also the strange ambience around criminal lawyers, among other lawyers, they are considered to be the Soggies ( Special Operations Group ) of the legal trade.

​

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Always plenty of work, and Legal Aid pays reliably.

You can take the rest of what I said as biassed gossip. But I do think some are vocationally called to criminal law, even if they don't know it as children. They have a sympathy with human frailty. Others one senses they are suppressing the 'ick'.

Never noticed the ambience. Have to take your word for it.
 
Dotta said:
I don't think so.

Justification for the sentence provided by Judge while sentencing explains the factual basis of the sentence,
including:

- the assessment of evidence,
- the legal basis of the sentence
- circumstances taken into account when imposing the penalty.

All these are made public.

JMO
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I disagree. If he pleads guilty, the only way the public will know more than we know now is if a savvy journalist has more details and writes a book.
Quite often an accused will plead guilty so all their details do not come out. I bet Gerard Baden Clay wished he had pleaded guilty. I was in the court and saw how embarrassed he was at having to describe the sex he had at a Macca's car park.
 
JLZ said:
Always plenty of work, and Legal Aid pays reliably.

You can take the rest of what I said as biassed gossip. But I do think some are vocationally called to criminal law, even if they don't know it as children. They have a sympathy with human frailty. Others one senses they are suppressing the 'ick'.

Never noticed the ambience. Have to take your word for it.
Click to expand...
Also, some people end up in law because they love debate and argument, and they love to win, but they like to win from the position of disadvantage. They like being the underdog.

Criminal defense offers the highest stakes, good pay, and continual challenge.

MOO
 
Trooper said:

septic tanks acces to your tank - Search Videos

www.bing.com www.bing.com

This may be of interest to septic tank afficionado's. Note the tools needed, ( and this vid clip was , obviously, done in broad daylight, plus, the finder actually knew where the tank was, for starters. Also, ,note the size of the lid to the tank. ) I , personally , did not last to the end of the clip, for reasons which will become obvious, and it is also an American tank, but AU rural tanks are not that different. And in many cases, not as large as this one.

'Can any Websleuthers elaborate on accessibility to septic tanks in the general community? How difficult would it be for a random person (for example) to go onto a random property (trespassing obviously) and place the remains inside a septic tank?'... I'd like to have a go at this , as it sounds like fun. :cool:

Usually, the septic tank is buried. A septic tank is not above ground, usually. So it is usually only known to the owner, it's not something a homeowner has signage about. It would be a hell of a job to randomly go around to random properties , looking for a septic tank. ( Don't forget, people are searching for Mrs Murphy, by now ) and without being indelicate, it would be a bit difficult to insert the body of a fully grown woman into the tank. Assuming one can find the lid. Unless the body was in parts.

To the private crematorium thingy, the human body is not that flammable, it has a high water content, but it is done professionally, and has been for centuries,.... the temperature needed is around 1600D Far. or for us in AU, around 872. C.
Click to expand...
I live locally , about 18 Km from Mt Clear in a 4 bedroom home on acres … on septic,and I think my set up ( now 40 years old) would be fairly common.
Most are set only inches below ground level , the curved concrete lid measures 600mm x 400 mm( there no doubt is an inside contact perimeter shoulder of perhaps 25mm ), so I’m thinking an intact female body could be pushed inside.
Most installations would not be as readily findable as mine!
 

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Dr Samoht said:
I live locally , about 18 Km from Mt Clear in a 4 bedroom home on acres … on septic,and I think my set up ( now 40 years old) would be fairly common.
Most are set only inches below ground level , the curved concrete lid measures 600mm x 400 mm( there no doubt is an inside contact perimeter shoulder of perhaps 25mm ), so I’m thinking an intact female body could be pushed inside.
Most installations would not be as readily findable as mine!
Click to expand...
Thanks Dr Samoht, this kind of local info and photographs are invaluable in terms of better understanding possibilities…. I imagine electricians could fairly easily access plans of a home that would no doubt contain positioning of septic tanks….? :oops: This rather gruesome possibility is seeming more and more plausible to me….

On the subject of body disposal and/or crematoriums for animals, is anyone in the farm animal field able to comment on how large animals like horses are managed when deceased? I imagine the standards may be more lax than for human bodies? But I don’t really know….

Just for interest it would appear from a cursory search on the internet that the septic tank idea is indeed a plausible possibility. See this case Septic tank body disposal
JMO
 
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Dr Samoht said:
I live locally , about 18 Km from Mt Clear in a 4 bedroom home on acres … on septic,and I think my set up ( now 40 years old) would be fairly common.
Most are set only inches below ground level , the curved concrete lid measures 600mm x 400 mm( there no doubt is an inside contact perimeter shoulder of perhaps 25mm ), so I’m thinking an intact female body could be pushed inside.
Most installations would not be as readily findable as mine!
Click to expand...
For what it's worth, I have a a septic system of similar age, and although I haven't looked at it in ages, I'd suggest the opening to mine is of similar size also. In my situation, the opening can quite easily become overgrown with whatever ground cover/weed is around at any point in time. I do not know how heavy the lid would be to lift. The opening is situated quite close to my house and can be seen from any window facing that direction. I'm assuming that's quite normal? You're not going to have the opening at the bottom of your 50 acre property, it would be situated in the vicinity of the building it services I would imagine. So, if this was the method of disposal, I'd say it's either in a home you own, a home you live in, a home you know is currently vacant or a home where you know nobody is home at the time.

Whether a fully grown, slim woman would fit inside is questionable, and I certainly wouldn't want to find out the hard that it didn't, if time was of the essence. I don't feel this is where she is.

It's my opinion that PS parent's home in Mt Clear would not likely be a septic system. I believe it was in a residential area, on a residential block from memory and would likely have been serviced by the town system, although I could be wrong. The house sit home in Scotsburn would be serviced by septic IMHO. Just out of interest sake, Google says a septic should be cleaned every 3-5 years. I'm not sure what would happen to a body in a septic system for 3-5 years, and whether it would cause a problem for a septic cleaning company.
 
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