Australia Samantha Murphy, 51, last seen leaving her property to go for a run in the Canadian State Forest, Ballarat, 4 Feb 2024 *Arrest* #11

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australianwebsleuth said:
The telephone is 5 km from the phone tower. They would have been able to fairly accurately ping it even if it was turned off and above water. Error is usually in the metre range . Unsure why they searched that road, maybe they had data on PS driving and stopping along there.. The SM phone would be undetectable under water.

Interestingly PS arrest location is exactly the same distance from the phone tower which is the one in Ballarat bird world. Obviously triangulation from other towers would more precisely give its location.

The 7km is by road not direct distance. Again PS arrest direct distance is also 5 km from phone. They form an equilateral triangle.
Click to expand...

You cannot ping a phone that is turned off. The best you can do (if a phone has Find My Phone activated) is find its last known location. Before it was turned off.

Also, it was stated by one of Sam's relatives that only one tower was working that day. Presumably the rest had been pulled down for maintenance/software upgrade on a quiet Sunday.


When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off.
How to Locate a Lost Cell Phone that is Turned off - iMobie
 
Angeline said:
Is it possible police went with a murder charge, knowing it could get downgraded? I thought it was a common practice, to go for the most severe charge.

When does the trial start?
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Not common in VIctoria , Australia. Mainly because it's a waste of the Dept. of Public Prosecution's time, and it serves no purpose in the long run. Being charged with murder, generally speaking, in AU, is not the domain of police organisations, they provide the evidence and thesis for their belief to the Public Prosecutor, who decides if a murder charge is correct, AND convictable. Once you are charged with murder, in AU, you go the whole circus , unless someone else steps up and confesses with evidence... I can't think of when that has happened this century.. Happy to be corrected.

The trial starts when the defence has had a good look at the 'unprecedented' and 'extensive' CCTV evidence that the Prosecution disclosed at the Mention last week. It is possible, entirely possible that the Defence may ask for even more time than that which has already been granted. I doubt if the Prosecutor would object, it would be a radical event if he/she did, although the judge is keen to get to trial , justice delayed and all that stuff...

Certainly , as of now, there are no grounds whatsoever that would support any consideration of downgrading the charge.

What grounds did you have in mind , that could reasonably be presented to achieve this outcome?
 
australianwebsleuth said:
Sorry the only published information I can find says he lived at Scotsburn and his Family home is at Mount Clear. There is no doubt he visited his family home.

Are you saying it is a fact that he was not living at Scotsburn on the 4th February? Lets be clear is it a fact or a rumour?

We have already seen inaccurate facts around the search at Mount Black and Brown on the 6th February which had nothing to do with the POC arrest.

You don't think the address of the accused is a logical position? There are actually lots of published papers measuring locations of body dump sites in relation to where the offender is living. That is the point of the thread.
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BBM : What facts?
 
Trooper said:
I've been looking for a spatial map. ..the ones that have the elevation and gullies, and creeks and whatnot , like what an eagle would see flying over Mt Clear...

www.bing.com

a spatial map - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.
www.bing.com www.bing.com
Click to expand...
Not a spatial map, but Gaia is good for elevation lines and tracks. There's a free version.

Hiking Trail Maps, Ski Touring, 4x4 Offroad App | Gaia GPS

www.gaiagps.com www.gaiagps.com
 
SouthAussie said:
You cannot ping a phone that is turned off. The best you can do (if a phone has Find My Phone activated) is find its last known location. Before it was turned off.

Also, it was stated by one of Sam's relatives that only one tower was working that day. Presumably the rest had been pulled down for maintenance/software upgrade on a quiet Sunday.


When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off.
How to Locate a Lost Cell Phone that is Turned off - iMobie
Click to expand...
Read the article again.
Paraphrase. Can a phone be tracked when switched off. The simple answer is yes. Using the IMEI number. Police and network provider can track it.
 
australianwebsleuth said:
Read the article again.
Paraphrase. Can a phone be tracked when switched off. The simple answer is yes. Using the IMEI number. Police and network provider can track it.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I don't need to read the article again. I am super familiar with telecomms. :)

If there was only one tower working that day, there would be a very large "sector" showing the IMEI number and final ping from the phone number. No triangulation. The IMEI does not stay "live" if a phone is off. It just allows a telecomms provider to track a phone if the SIM (phone number) has been changed. And the phones last known location, before being turned off.

The IMEI is simply a phone identification number that sits alongside a SIM (phone) number on the provider's network.

Both the IMEI and the pings will only show the last known location, prior to the phone being switched off. That is what the article means by "track it" .. track the last known location as showing on the network. And it presumes the phone will be in that last known location. It very well may not be.


The IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) number is a unique 15-digit serial number for identifying a device; every mobile phone in the world has one.
If completely necessary, the police can also use the IMEI to locate where the phone last made a connection to the mobile phone network. Link
 
drsleuth said:
Does anyone know what mapping the Vic Police use? I'm pretty sure NSWPF use / have used six maps?
Click to expand...

Maybe Vicmap?

Emergency services across the state of Victoria have free access to Vicmap Topographic maps.
Features include:
  • Accurate display of tracks, gates, bridges, landmarks and water courses for navigation.
  • Clear marking of administrative boundaries, for example, public and private land.
  • Contours and topography that help in emergency management planning and operations. For example, predicting how a fire might travel, or the flow of floodwaters.
  • Location of important infrastructure such as communications towers, railways and buildings.
  • The naming of features, such as roads, parks, reserves and watercourses.
Consistent use of symbols between digital and hard copy maps, and across all map scales and services. This includes Vicmap Viewer, eMap and Vicmap Topographic Maps Online.

Emergency services maps

Find out how Vicmap topographic maps are used for emergency response.
www.land.vic.gov.au www.land.vic.gov.au
 
SouthAussie said:
Thanks, I don't need to read the article again. I am super familiar with telecomms. :)

If there was only one tower working that day, there would be a very large "sector" showing the IMEI number and final ping from the phone number. No triangulation. The IMEI does not stay "live" if a phone is off. It just allows a telecomms provider to track a phone if the SIM (phone number) has been changed. And the phones last known location, before being turned off.

The IMEI is simply a phone identification number that sits alongside a SIM (phone) number on the provider's network.

Both the IMEI and the pings will only show the last known location, prior to the phone being switched off. That is what the article means by "track it" .. track the last known location as showing on the network. And it presumes the phone will be in that last known location. It very well may not be.


The IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) number is a unique 15-digit serial number for identifying a device; every mobile phone in the world has one.
If completely necessary, the police can also use the IMEI to locate where the phone last made a connection to the mobile phone network. Link
Click to expand...
There are plenty of articles showing turned off phones being tracked by the way. If stolen and turned off they can be found. The technology has been available since iPhone 11. I am less familiar with android devices. When pinged in this mode they can give a GPS location. The phone can also be picked up by being close to another device even when turned off.

If you are correct and there was only 1 tower available, then the arc of 5km goes through location at Scotsburn as well as the dam. They are both on the same ARC. I drew the map earlier today as I wondered how they tracked to the dam. When did they track it is the question and how did they do it. We will eventually find out.
 
australianwebsleuth said:
There are plenty of articles showing turned off phones being tracked by the way. If stolen and turned off they can be found. The technology has been available since iPhone 11. I am less familiar with android devices. When pinged in this mode they can give a GPS location. The phone can also be picked up by being close to another device even when turned off.

If you are correct and there was only 1 tower available, then the arc of 5km goes through location at Scotsburn as well as the dam. They are both on the same ARC. I drew the map earlier today as I wondered how they tracked to the dam. When did they track it is the question and how did they do it. We will eventually find out.
Click to expand...

Yes, phones can be found if they are found in the last known location when the phone was still on or was turned back on.

Once the phone is off, that's it. No IMEI on the network, no pings on the network.

At this point I am happy to agree to disagree
 
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What will be more interesting is what will be on HIS phone. Pound to a penny he kicked the phone out of Mrs Murphy's hand straight off, but forgot to attend to his own. It's been a real treat over these years to see just how many people incriminate themselves by their own phones...

It always reminds me of my fave detective, ( really, he is a magistrate , an eccentric one, but he takes upon himself the detection of this crime ) Porfiry Petrovich – The head of the Investigation Department in charge of solving the murders of Lizaveta and Alyona Ivanovna, who, along with Sonya, moves Raskolnikov towards confession, in Fyodor Dostoevsky 's 'Crime and Punishment..'.

'We don't catch killers' smiled Porfiry, speaking gently , 'Killers catch themselves'... the smile moved to his eyes...
 
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Warshawski said:
OK no worries.

But I am interested - if you killed someone & disposed of their body - would you be happy that all trails quickly led to the finding of that body, with your incriminating DNA all over it etc.

Or would you instead start to consider what means you may have available to you to throw searchers off the scent of such body ?

Full disclosure here, I’ve no experience as a Murderer, but I reckon if I went to the trouble of hiding the body, I’d be keen to do all I could to ensure it wasn’t found.

(ummm - but some murders just cover them with sticks or whatever in an easy to find place - now we go to profiling. I need to stop!)
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Oh no you don’t need to stop …. Profiling in my limited knowledge I find fascinating. Please indulge.
 
australianwebsleuth said:
Honey Bun One, I can find plenty of articles about the drug fuelled bender the night before in the Herad-Sun as well Sky News. I have been unable to find anything about the 80th Birthday party at all. Searched Internet.

Have you found it?
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I don't believe it was ever reported in MSM, I think it was more a local "rumour", perhaps based on fact. I think it may have been a local who mentioned it here, perhaps Dr Samoht?

So I guess for now it's just a rumour, although this article does mention a party:


"According to the Herald Sun, the 22-year-old had been on a "massive" night out, with some of his friends revealing he had attended a party before heading to The Deck, a bar and music venue in Ballarat which is open until 3am."
 
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Police have stated they do not believe there is any connection between the accused and the family.
But they have not explicitly ruled out a connection between Samantha and the accused (of which the family may have been unaware).
In over 90% of murders, the murderer is known to the victim....Occam's razor
I still think there could be some connection there
 
australianwebsleuth said:
Imho he dumped the body where he could not be seen. He dumped her that day, most probably that morning. The smell would have been dreadful if he kept her in the back of a 4WD in the heat. He dumped the telephone later possibly a different day.
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Shortened by me.
I agree with you. I also think he dumped her body that morning and the phone at a later date, for whatever reason. Perhaps the phone was tossed hastily, if he felt police were closing in, or if he had limited time to himself to do it.
australianwebsleuth said:
There is conflicting information. One article says that he was out at many venues in Ballarat the night before the disappearance. Police were looking at footage and tracing his footsteps I am not sure where the 80th birthday info came from.
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This article mentions a party, and I'm pretty sure a local web sleuther mentioned it being an 80th. Only a rumour so far I believe.
 
drsleuth said:
What does it matter IF he was out on a bender on Sat night / Sunday morning?
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It has the potential to show his state of mind in the hours just beforehand, or show that he was pumped full of adrenaline, testosterone and God only knows what substances, and looking for a fight.

Police were collecting CCTV footage form several nightclubs in Ballarat from the night before. This footage may show a progression, from a sober young man early in the night, through to a drug fuelled, angry, potential killer leaving the last nightclub in the early hours of Sunday.

MOO
 
Scooby-Doo said:
Police have stated they do not believe there is any connection between the accused and the family.
But they have not explicitly ruled out a connection between Samantha and the accused (of which the family may have been unaware).
In over 90% of murders, the murderer is known to the victim....Occam's razor
I still think there could be some connection there
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He may have seen her, when she had her training at the same location sometimes. But he may have stalked her first out of curiosity only, until the day came, when he was in a special mood on a Sunday morning because of alcohol/drugs/anger/"fun"/jealousy/ADHD (who knows). MOO
 
HoneyBunOne said:
I don't believe it was ever reported in MSM, I think it was more a local "rumour", perhaps based on fact. I think it may have been a local who mentioned it here, perhaps Dr Samoht?

So I guess for now it's just a rumour, although this article does mention a party:


"According to the Herald Sun, the 22-year-old had been on a "massive" night out, with some of his friends revealing he had attended a party before heading to The Deck, a bar and music venue in Ballarat which is open until 3am."
Click to expand...
If it was a party for a 80yo relative, PS' parents and maybe even the siblings would have known and said so to LE. IMO
 
FromGermany1 said:
If it was a party for a 80yo relative, PS' parents and maybe even the siblings would have known and said so to LE. IMO
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The "Grandpa" I referred to was fictitious. I assumed that if it was an 80th, then that person would be around the right age to be a grand parent to someone of PS's age. Maybe family, maybe a friend of the family, maybe related to the girlfriend. Who knows? I'm pretty sure he would not have attended alone though, however PS's side of the family may have been blissfully unaware of his activities on the night before Samantha died, especially if he was mostly living with the girlfriend at the house sit location at the time.
 
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