Australia Samantha Murphy, 51, last seen leaving her property to go for a run in the Canadian State Forest, Ballarat, 4 Feb 2024 *Arrest* #11

[Angeline]

Is it possible police went with a murder charge, knowing it could get downgraded? I thought it was a common practice, to go for the most severe charge.

When does the trial start?

 

[SouthAussie]

The telephone is 5 km from the phone tower. They would have been able to fairly accurately ping it even if it was turned off and above water. Error is usually in the metre range . Unsure why they searched that road, maybe they had data on PS driving and stopping along there.. The SM phone would be undetectable under water.

Interestingly PS arrest location is exactly the same distance from the phone tower which is the one in Ballarat bird world. Obviously triangulation from other towers would more precisely give its location.

The 7km is by road not direct distance. Again PS arrest direct distance is also 5 km from phone. They form an equilateral triangle.

You cannot ping a phone that is turned off. The best you can do (if a phone has Find My Phone activated) is find its last known location. Before it was turned off.

Also, it was stated by one of Sam's relatives that only one tower was working that day. Presumably the rest had been pulled down for maintenance/software upgrade on a quiet Sunday.


When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off.
How to Locate a Lost Cell Phone that is Turned off - iMobie

 

[Trooper]

Is it possible police went with a murder charge, knowing it could get downgraded? I thought it was a common practice, to go for the most severe charge.

When does the trial start?

Not common in VIctoria , Australia. Mainly because it's a waste of the Dept. of Public Prosecution's time, and it serves no purpose in the long run. Being charged with murder, generally speaking, in AU, is not the domain of police organisations, they provide the evidence and thesis for their belief to the Public Prosecutor, who decides if a murder charge is correct, AND convictable. Once you are charged with murder, in AU, you go the whole circus , unless someone else steps up and confesses with evidence... I can't think of when that has happened this century.. Happy to be corrected.

The trial starts when the defence has had a good look at the 'unprecedented' and 'extensive' CCTV evidence that the Prosecution disclosed at the Mention last week. It is possible, entirely possible that the Defence may ask for even more time than that which has already been granted. I doubt if the Prosecutor would object, it would be a radical event if he/she did, although the judge is keen to get to trial , justice delayed and all that stuff...

Certainly , as of now, there are no grounds whatsoever that would support any consideration of downgrading the charge.

What grounds did you have in mind , that could reasonably be presented to achieve this outcome?

 

[drsleuth]

Sorry the only published information I can find says he lived at Scotsburn and his Family home is at Mount Clear. There is no doubt he visited his family home.

Are you saying it is a fact that he was not living at Scotsburn on the 4th February? Lets be clear is it a fact or a rumour?

We have already seen inaccurate facts around the search at Mount Black and Brown on the 6th February which had nothing to do with the POC arrest.

You don't think the address of the accused is a logical position? There are actually lots of published papers measuring locations of body dump sites in relation to where the offender is living. That is the point of the thread.

BBM : What facts?

 

[JLZ]

I've been looking for a spatial map. ..the ones that have the elevation and gullies, and creeks and whatnot , like what an eagle would see flying over Mt Clear...

a spatial map - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

Not a spatial map, but Gaia is good for elevation lines and tracks. There's a free version.

Hiking Trail Maps, Ski Touring, 4x4 Offroad App | Gaia GPS

www.gaiagps.com

 

[drsleuth]

Does anyone know what mapping the Vic Police use? I'm pretty sure NSWPF use / have used six maps?

 

[australianwebsleuth]

You cannot ping a phone that is turned off. The best you can do (if a phone has Find My Phone activated) is find its last known location. Before it was turned off.

Also, it was stated by one of Sam's relatives that only one tower was working that day. Presumably the rest had been pulled down for maintenance/software upgrade on a quiet Sunday.


When your phone is turned off or runs out of battery, you won’t be able to track its real-time location using the methods described above. However, the “Send Last Location” feature allows you to see the last location of your cell phone before it’s off.
How to Locate a Lost Cell Phone that is Turned off - iMobie

Read the article again.
Paraphrase. Can a phone be tracked when switched off. The simple answer is yes. Using the IMEI number. Police and network provider can track it.

 

[SouthAussie]

Read the article again.
Paraphrase. Can a phone be tracked when switched off. The simple answer is yes. Using the IMEI number. Police and network provider can track it.

Thanks, I don't need to read the article again. I am super familiar with telecomms.

If there was only one tower working that day, there would be a very large "sector" showing the IMEI number and final ping from the phone number. No triangulation. The IMEI does not stay "live" if a phone is off. It just allows a telecomms provider to track a phone if the SIM (phone number) has been changed. And the phones last known location, before being turned off.

The IMEI is simply a phone identification number that sits alongside a SIM (phone) number on the provider's network.

Both the IMEI and the pings will only show the last known location, prior to the phone being switched off. That is what the article means by "track it" .. track the last known location as showing on the network. And it presumes the phone will be in that last known location. It very well may not be.


The IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) number is a unique 15-digit serial number for identifying a device; every mobile phone in the world has one.
If completely necessary, the police can also use the IMEI to locate where the phone last made a connection to the mobile phone network. Link

 

[SouthAussie]

Does anyone know what mapping the Vic Police use? I'm pretty sure NSWPF use / have used six maps?

Maybe Vicmap?

Emergency services across the state of Victoria have free access to Vicmap Topographic maps.
Features include:

• Accurate display of tracks, gates, bridges, landmarks and water courses for navigation.
• Clear marking of administrative boundaries, for example, public and private land.
• Contours and topography that help in emergency management planning and operations. For example, predicting how a fire might travel, or the flow of floodwaters.
• Location of important infrastructure such as communications towers, railways and buildings.
• The naming of features, such as roads, parks, reserves and watercourses.

Consistent use of symbols between digital and hard copy maps, and across all map scales and services. This includes Vicmap Viewer, eMap and Vicmap Topographic Maps Online.

Emergency services maps

Find out how Vicmap topographic maps are used for emergency response.

www.land.vic.gov.au

 

[australianwebsleuth]

Thanks, I don't need to read the article again. I am super familiar with telecomms.

If there was only one tower working that day, there would be a very large "sector" showing the IMEI number and final ping from the phone number. No triangulation. The IMEI does not stay "live" if a phone is off. It just allows a telecomms provider to track a phone if the SIM (phone number) has been changed. And the phones last known location, before being turned off.

The IMEI is simply a phone identification number that sits alongside a SIM (phone) number on the provider's network.

Both the IMEI and the pings will only show the last known location, prior to the phone being switched off. That is what the article means by "track it" .. track the last known location as showing on the network. And it presumes the phone will be in that last known location. It very well may not be.


The IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) number is a unique 15-digit serial number for identifying a device; every mobile phone in the world has one.
If completely necessary, the police can also use the IMEI to locate where the phone last made a connection to the mobile phone network. Link

There are plenty of articles showing turned off phones being tracked by the way. If stolen and turned off they can be found. The technology has been available since iPhone 11. I am less familiar with android devices. When pinged in this mode they can give a GPS location. The phone can also be picked up by being close to another device even when turned off.

If you are correct and there was only 1 tower available, then the arc of 5km goes through location at Scotsburn as well as the dam. They are both on the same ARC. I drew the map earlier today as I wondered how they tracked to the dam. When did they track it is the question and how did they do it. We will eventually find out.

 

[SouthAussie]

There are plenty of articles showing turned off phones being tracked by the way. If stolen and turned off they can be found. The technology has been available since iPhone 11. I am less familiar with android devices. When pinged in this mode they can give a GPS location. The phone can also be picked up by being close to another device even when turned off.

If you are correct and there was only 1 tower available, then the arc of 5km goes through location at Scotsburn as well as the dam. They are both on the same ARC. I drew the map earlier today as I wondered how they tracked to the dam. When did they track it is the question and how did they do it. We will eventually find out.

Yes, phones can be found if they are found in the last known location when the phone was still on or was turned back on.

Once the phone is off, that's it. No IMEI on the network, no pings on the network.

At this point I am happy to agree to disagree

 

[Trooper]

What will be more interesting is what will be on HIS phone. Pound to a penny he kicked the phone out of Mrs Murphy's hand straight off, but forgot to attend to his own. It's been a real treat over these years to see just how many people incriminate themselves by their own phones...

It always reminds me of my fave detective, ( really, he is a magistrate , an eccentric one, but he takes upon himself the detection of this crime ) Porfiry Petrovich – The head of the Investigation Department in charge of solving the murders of Lizaveta and Alyona Ivanovna, who, along with Sonya, moves Raskolnikov towards confession, in Fyodor Dostoevsky 's 'Crime and Punishment..'.

'We don't catch killers' smiled Porfiry, speaking gently , 'Killers catch themselves'... the smile moved to his eyes...