Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #5

[Hope4More]

She threatened suicide from the beginning of their relationship, never did it. So I don't think Travis would take it as seriously in June 2008 as he did in 2007.

Why would she need to threaten to hurt herself? She flatters him, they've been getting along all day...she suggests the shower pictures...he figures what's the harm, she's almost back on the road. She maneuvers him into a few "poses", asks him to sit down then surprises him with a knife.

The element of surprise was key IMO. Not a prolonged drama of suicide with a gun that would immediately get his guard up.

He said on May 19th that he thought she might kill herself. I believe he meant what he said.

Because I believe that, it is all the more remarkable to me that he pushed her as far as he did on May 26.

I've now put all of their known communications from May 22-May 26 in the correct order, including the chat itself. The chat reads VERY differently when in the proper sequence.

I've been in fairly regular contact with BK's mod, who is thinking about posting the corrected order on BK's site. I'll ask for permission to post the whole chat here and hope she allows it.

One major difference in how the chat reads....at the very end of it, he tells her to call him. He's already received her email during the chat. IMO he thinks she might actually come clean with him, based on one of the last things she says in the chat-- that everything he said in his email to her (late evening May 25) was TRUE.

He definitely told her in that email that she'd slashed his tires and stolen his journals.

He dropped his demand that she put part 2 in writing, because he thought the "incriminating" part was admitting she'd slashed his tires, etc. In other words, he thought she was willing to incriminate herself by saying it was all true, and he IMO thought that was what he was going to hear on the call.

It wasn't. There is no way to know what she told him by phone (she made sure it was by phone) but I'm convinced that is when she told him she had recorded their phone sex and the Helio was stolen.

It was a VERY short call, if I understand how to translate Greenwich time. She told him, he told her he never wanted to see or hear from her again (per Taylor), and hung up on her. Three or 4 minutes after the chat ended and the call began she sent the last communication of that extended confrontation, an email titled: Two things (I did not slash yr tires or steal yr journals. Plus, per Chris and Sky- that she was going to see a lawyer the next day).

The conversation after their chat cancelled what came in the chat. His whole goal was to get her to admit --in writing--that she had lied to him about the tires and journal. He tried every which way he knew to get her to admit it, including the complete BS about being "addicted" to her.

He failed. Within several minutes after the chat he'd have realized she had played him again, and that the threat of his being exposed was way worse than he had feared.

BTW, Travis didn't sleep the night of the 25th, slept 6 hours in the morning of the 26th, after going to sleep at 6AM, and didn't sleep at all on the night of the 27th.

He was NOT in the slightest bit OK.

 

[pocketaccent]

The most likely had a gun and knife concealed somewhere on her when she began taking the shower photos. And she had the camera itself in her hands at that point.

I can't imagine she was thinking about the camera as she stabbed
him the 1st time, and it's even less likely she was thinking about the camera when he unexpectedly fought back and kept not dying quickly enough to suit her.

29 stabs and a slit throat in 2 minutes or so, right?

If the camera wasn't on a strap she would have to tossed it as she began stabbing, IMO, and that's what I always assumed she had done. JM says she still had it on her until after his throat was slit and she began to drag him.

The only reasonable explaination for that, IMO, is that she'd attached her own strap to his camera, which would have been no big deal whatsoever for her to have done.

BBM

Just want to point out that people buy camera straps all the time. All kinds of fancy ones are out there in the market.
To me, Travis purchasing another one he really liked (rather than using the boring Sony strap that came with the camera) for his expensive camera is very conceivable.

 

[Hope4More]

Not seeing it geevee. It just looks like baggy pants on someone with their foot firmly planted. No way it's from a camera on a neck strap. She's apparently pretty limber but...

Sorry if I'm arguing with y'all today. Wife often says I should have been a lawyer instead of a vet.
All opinions are only mine and offered with respect

LOL. My DH constantly tells me I should have been an attorney....

I don't call it arguing, myself. I see it as debate, and though I can be fierce in presenting my opinions, I very rarely am so convinced I'm right that I'm not open to hearing opposing counsel. Strike that, differing opinions.

<modsnip>

As much as I've enjoyed sleuthing the bejeebers out of this case, I wouldn't still be here posting and debating if it weren't for the company I find here of fine minds and good hearts, yours included.

 

[Hope4More]

She threatened suicide from the beginning of their relationship, never did it. So I don't think Travis would take it as seriously in June 2008 as he did in 2007.

Why would she need to threaten to hurt herself? She flatters him, they've been getting along all day...she suggests the shower pictures...he figures what's the harm, she's almost back on the road. She maneuvers him into a few "poses", asks him to sit down then surprises him with a knife.

The element of surprise was key IMO. Not a prolonged drama of suicide with a gun that would immediately get his guard up.

No prolonged drama with a gun. Either she had the gun out the whole time without the suicide act or she pulled the gun out literally in that last minute when he turned towards the camera in response.

This is the we're talking about. Has she EVER kept her mouth shut when she needed to? That would be a never.

And IMO there is no way she intended to sweet talk him then kill him in the next instant, robbing herself altogether and forever of the chance to tell him just how much she hated him.

ETA: the kernal of truth- I dropped his camera and he lunged at me.

Translated: I dropped the gun and he lunged towards it (but by that time I had a knife in my hand which he didn't see me pull out because he was so focused on the gun).

 

[TexMex]

No prolonged drama with a gun. Either she had the gun out the whole time without the suicide act or she pulled the gun out literally in that last minute when he turned towards the camera in response.

This is the we're talking about. Has she EVER kept her mouth shut when she needed to? That would be a never.

And IMO there is no way she intended to sweet talk him then kill him in the next instant, robbing herself altogether and forever of the chance to tell him just how much she hated him.

JMO but I think it was all about a surprise attack. No words of anger at all, no escalation. She was on a mission. She let the knife do the talking for her. Eight minutes of being held at gunpoint is prolonged to me. I don't think Travis ever saw the gun cause his heart wasn't pumping when he was shot per Horn.

I'm not even sure she hated him. She just didn't want him to be with anyone else. She couldn't turn off her obsessive love for him unless he was gone. It was about her mostly, as always. Her feelings. Her insecurities. Her obsessive thoughts. Her "love". Her future. I do think it hurt her that to him, after a certain point, it was only sex.

ETA the kernel of truth...IMO the dropped the camera and he lunged at me was born after she decided on self defense trial strategy. She needed a reason for Travis to attack her and that's what she came up with. Big bully with the fancy new camera attacked the poor love struck waitress cause she dropped one of his expensive toys

 

[pocketaccent]

Great point, TexMex, about her putting the camera in her sweat pants pocket- one I never thought of. I have a Cybershot much like if not the same as Travis'; its upstairs in my desk and you are right, it is pretty small. She could easily have put it in her pocket and during the murder it fell out. I will take a pic of my camera later and try to post it as we are on our way out to a retirement dinner in a little bit. That's why I knew about the software you need to download pics to a PC. Great point. I will bet that's what happened. It would have been waist level to take the first ceiling pic at that point too. Light bulb moment for me!

Could you please test to see if your camera can snap a photo upside down?
I have always doubted it could because of the large bump on top of the camera. Thank you in advance.
:tyou:

 

[TexMex]

Could you please test to see if your camera can snap a photo upside down?
I have always doubted it could because of the large bump on top of the camera. Thank you in advance.
:tyou:

It was demonstrated in court how the shutter can be pressed while the camera is upside down. By Melendez, day 6 IIRC

 

[TrialWatcher]

(...)

... (a strap possibly leads to her getting hit in the face by a swinging camera or him grabbing it and choking her during a struggle) while it slips into her pocket she hits shutter, 1st pic. 5:31:14

(...)

it could definately have been on a strap but if it was wouldn't it have captured her hair in the photo if she was bent over, close enough for the shutter to hit the ground? Not so if falling from a pocket...

The possibility of a strap, I was open to but the points above make sense. She wouldn't want to be hit or hindered by a swinging camera when she had the task os murder to complete.

 

[Hope4More]

JMO but I think it was all about a surprise attack. No words of anger at all, no escalation. She was on a mission. She let the knife do the talking for her. Eight minutes of being held at gunpoint is prolonged to me. I don't think Travis ever saw the gun cause his heart wasn't pumping when he was shot per Horn.

I'm not even sure she hated him. She just didn't want him to be with anyone else. She couldn't turn off her obsessive love for him unless he was gone. It was about her mostly, as always. Her feelings. Her insecurities. Her obsessive thoughts. Her "love". Her future. I do think it hurt her that to him, after a certain point, it was only sex.

ETA the kernel of truth...IMO the dropped the camera and he lunged at me was born after she decided on self defense trial strategy. She needed a reason for Travis to attack her and that's what she came up with. Big bully with the fancy new camera attacked the poor love struck waitress cause she dropped one of his expensive toys

Because he was dead when she shot him doesn't mean she didn't use the gun as a prop while he was alive.

She went through a lot of effort to bring that gun with her. Why didn't she use it to kill him? Because she always intended to use a knife. Why did she have a knife on her in the bathroom? Because that's what she planned to use. So why have a gun too?

IMO she must have had it on her, because again IMO he would never have sat down in his shower voluntarily. Never. More objectively, if she didn't have the gun with her she had to retrieve it from somewhere, after she killed him.

It doesn't make any sense to me she went through all that trouble before and after just to shoot him after he was dead.

So why the gun? What's left? As a prop. To force him to comply.

Yes, the lunging story later, for trial. Same kernel.

As for loving him? IMO she absolutely never loved him. She's fundamentally incapable. She's a sociopath. TA was a means to an end. He thwarted her from getting what she wanted with him, and she felt threatened by him that he'd thwart her new hunt for prey by exposing her. So he had to die.

 

[TexMex]

Can you see it better here? I can also see the blur of her toes on the tile below this spot but I'll leave that discussion a few pages back.

View attachment 90545

There's also a shadow from the floor upwards that I think is her hair, haven't done the visual mechanics to figure in the strap or no strap on that shadow but it's clearly there.

View attachment 90544

To me it looks like she's standing up and perhaps the camera fell out of her right pocket, in that chaotic pattern in which cameras fall, and it captured this picture

Heel Toes

Foot Flat

JMO

 

[RickshawFan]

TexMex: Your recall is consistently sharp. I think that rules out the strap, although it is a possibility she used hers. My instinct now is that she didn't.

Regarding the sweat pants - Jodi claimed to have a white pair with a black stripe. I remember the Detective Flores' interviews very well as I thought he was outstanding. Remember her face when he asked about the sweat pants? It's worth watching that small section to see how EF toys with her. A little further on is the, "Well, enough about your cat" quip. It still tickles me - Detective Flores' flat, dry delivery.


Sweat pant statement from 11.00 minutes in. The ones that Caylee Advocate posted are grey but Arias admits to having two pairs. She looks like she is lying - (surprise!) so that pic may be the exact ones. Then again, she lies so much, always have to filter through as much evidence as possible.

I forgot to add - at 12.20 minutes in - she makes a sound like Detective Flores actually knocks the wind out of her (as opposed to Arias faking having the wind knocked out of her in court). It comes out as a strangled, slumping 'Hmmppph'. It's a joy to watch how skilled EF is. He then leaves her to consider that she is well and truly - caught.

Lol when EF talks about the bloody handprint and how she can't explain it, she looks at her hands.

 

[RickshawFan]

1. Every Phoenix-Yreka/Yreka/Phoenix flight she mentions in her journal indicates Sacramento as her/her family's CA airport of choice.

2. Her Infiniti wasn't repossessed until late June, iirc, or even as late as July. That would be the car she bought working as a waitress, car payments in addition to a $1400 per month mortgage payment, her half of the total payment due, and half of all utilities for the house. No wonder she felt so driven by summer 2007 to find and marry a rich man, PDQ.

3. Her tire repair bill. What caught my eye is another instance of the 's endless TIRE stories. What is it with this killer and tires?Tire slashings- three times, supposedly buying tires for a BMW that already had 4 brand new tires on it because of her knife fetish and rage, and this, tire as excuse for not going to a funeral she never wanted to attend.

Such redundancy.

The tire place could have been for an oil change or something. Some tire places do basic maintenance stuff.

 

[geevee]

Could you please test to see if your camera can snap a photo upside down?
I have always doubted it could because of the large bump on top of the camera. Thank you in advance.
:tyou:

I rotated it upside down until the shutter button was level with the bump (red line), it probably could have taken a picture like that but stability of it sitting in that position is iffy at best, imo. Would love to have someone do a demo though.

 

[TexMex]

Because he was dead when she shot him doesn't mean she didn't use the gun as a prop while he was alive.

She went through a lot of effort to bring that gun with her. Why didn't she use it to kill him? Because she always intended to use a knife. Why did she have a knife on her in the bathroom? Because that's what she planned to use. So why have a gun too?

IMO she must have had it on her, because again IMO he would never have sat down in his shower voluntarily. Never. More objectively, if she didn't have the gun with her she had to retrieve it from somewhere, after she killed him.

It doesn't make any sense to me she went through all that trouble before and after just to shoot him after he was dead.

So why the gun? What's left? As a prop. To force him to comply.

Yes, the lunging story later, for trial. Same kernel.

As for loving him? IMO she absolutely never loved him. She's fundamentally incapable. She's a sociopath. TA was a means to an end. He thwarted her from getting what she wanted with him, and she felt threatened by him that he'd thwart her new hunt for prey by exposing her. So he had to die.

Yeah...not true love...borderline personality, psychotic "love". Obsessive love. But it's the only "love" she's ever known
I think the gun was backup. She could use it if he possibly got her on the ground. Or she may have had a fantasy about shooting him while he slept but kept with the knife attack plan instead.

Once he was dead IMO the gun became part of the staging process. If there were two weapons used then there must be two attackers, right? She immediately went with this after being shown the pictures of June 4.

 

[Hope4More]

Lol when EF talks about the bloody handprint and how she can't explain it, she looks at her hands.

Overall, though, what I find most astonishing about the interrogations is her nonchalance. JM meant what he said about her never believing she would be held accountable for murdering TA.

By the second day she's thinking ahead to getting money on her jail books and how many calls she'll be allowed. When the FO tries to work on her about her public persona in the media the responds by asking, in essense, how she should go about shaping public opinion.

When the FO officer tells her she owes it to TA's family to tell the truth, she requests paper and starts writing that vile letter to savage his family with putrid lies, including that TA had abused her.

How did she put it? " If I'm found guilty of killing TA I won't have a life. So... I didn't kill him. "

And..."I admit the evidence looks compelling. But it doesn't mean I killed him."

Watching Flores show her the date and time stamped photos and hearing her deny photographic evidence that she was indeed there gave me an idea of how crazy making she must have been with Travis. No wonder in those final days he demanded she put what she wanted to say in writing...

 

[GigiG]

P.S. Tex, no worries on arguing, I just take it as a healthy debate, my motivation is to get folks to see what I see so you can understand my reasoning of what I think is happening in each pic, and all totally meant respectfully.

Have to hand it to you GV, you see things I would never have noticed. Good eyes

 

[TrialWatcher]

My thought is: she tells Travis the last shots will be with his eyes closed.. she's getting ready to pull the knife...she is slipping the camera into her pants pocket quietly (a strap possibly leads to her getting hit in the face by a swinging camera or him grabbing it and choking her during a struggle) while it slips into her pocket she hits shutter, 1st pic. 5:31:14

She's now in chaos for the next minute. Travis fought for his life and didn't just stay in the shower and die like she planned. He tries grabbing the knife. He's out, to the sink, hands bleeding on the vanity as she knifes him in the back, blood everywhere. He's staggering down the hall and she's following him. He slides down the wall and she goes for the throat. He's dead. She begins getting him off the carpet, down the hall. As she does the camera falls from her pocket and captures the 5:32:16 pic of her foot. Travis is dead so that threat is over. She still knows she cannot lose track of the camera. The evidence on it must be deleted. So she reaches down, picks it up and puts it back in her pocket.
She continues dragging 180 pounds back to the shower. It's difficult and again the camera falls out taking the 5:32:33 image.

it could definately have been on a strap but if it was wouldn't it have captured her hair in the photo if she was bent over, close enough for the shutter to hit the ground? Not so if falling from a pocket...

I see no benefit for Arias to threaten to hurt herself as Travis was well used to her dramas by then. That final sitting pic shows anger, indignation and fear. Something she had done by then was scaring him. His face isn't concerned for her safety. It's terrified for his own.

I'm tempted to believe that the shower photo series was ordered by her, perhaps at gunpoint? The reason is that Travis doesn't look natural in those pics. There are no recovered pics of him goofing between shots. It all looks forced - not like a man showing off his physique - more like turning and moving to order, trying to keep calm. Maybe he was calculating how to rush her during those pics then she forced Travis to the shower floor? What goes against my thought process here is the statement made about the eye reflection pic. If she wasn't holding a knife or gun at that point, it is more likely the scenario you put forward. How much weight can be out in the eye reflection pic settlement in court?

Remember the story about the gun being pulled on her by a ninja? How it didn't go off? Could that be what forced her to move so suddenly to knife mode? Did Arias pull the trigger and it didn't fire? Travis then rushed her, the blur pics occur?I appreciate that she may have coaxed him too. What niggles at me is his half-hearted poses and that final look of fear, trying to decide what to do, perhaps?

 

[TrialWatcher]

Lol when EF talks about the bloody handprint and how she can't explain it, she looks at her hands.

That so makes me laugh, RickshawFan. She is such a bad actress.

 

[geevee]

To me it looks like she's standing up and perhaps the camera fell out of her right pocket, in that chaotic pattern in which cameras fall, and it captured this picture

Heel View attachment 90548 Toes

Foot Flat

JMO

I think that pic is giving a somewhat false picture, if you will. If you look at the pic from the e-book (and you can even see it in the ones from trial but not as well) you can see through the bottom edge of the pant leg (where a leg/ankle would be if it were a stationary foot) to his back, her leg is in motion, moving to our left and upwards (otherwise the pic couldn't have caught the toe blur down below and upward, the upward wouldn't show as it'd have happened before the pic was snapped (foot coming down) toe blur is all over the front of the tile like an overlay because her foot was moving quickly. That fold is her foot/pant leg moving upwards and her foot is bare, what looks like a sock is a towel imo, that she hid one or both weapons in, maybe in his bathroom cabinet as in the book pic you can clearly see the cabinet door is open while the attack is in progress, she didn't open it to get the cup when she was in clean up mode, she was in the cabinet before she attacked him. All jmo but I see the proof in the pics.

 

[Hope4More]

Yeah...not true love...borderline personality, psychotic "love". Obsessive love. But it's the only "love" she's ever known
I think the gun was backup. She could use it if he possibly got her on the ground. Or she may have had a fantasy about shooting him while he slept but kept with the knife attack plan instead.

Once he was dead IMO the gun became part of the staging process. If there were two weapons used then there must be two attackers, right? She immediately went with this after being shown the pictures of June 4.

I think she went right there in part because she and Flores had discussed the more than one killer scenario on June 10, in their first phone interview.

IMO she never thought she'd be under real suspicion, so why bother staging the scene -- and just in that one way- to suggest 2 killers?

I think she never intended to shoot him, but did so at the end because he (ugh, can't say it) after she had dragged him into the bathroom, and so she picked the gun up from off the floor where she tossed it and shot him to be sure he was dead.

What she said about gun and knife in the Flores interrogation was for me one of the most evil and sickening moments of those hours.

That if she were to murder him, she thought she'd have to use a gun and keep shooting him until he was dead, that she couldn't imagine using a knife, because that would be too inhumane.