Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #5

[TrialWatcher]

I think if they had sex on June 4th it was coercive as well. And if he had to—or did—go along with it under pressure, he would have been especially vulnerable in the shower, because he would have been filled with guilt and afraid. This is a lot more complicated than "I don't want JA to take photos, but I'll just get it over with and she'll go away."

The sex was coercive? What evidence is there of that? The evidence suggests the opposite. The time stamped photos show Arias was in vulnerable naked positions. Travis was taking the pictures. Juan verified his knee is visible above Arias. He couldn't have overpowered Arias when she was naked or had her 'back' to him? What evidence do you base your opinions on? How many men are raped prior to murder by a woman? Does anyone have American statistics on that? Never mind the physical difficulties, the probability of this must be very low. Add in the bigger picture of sex between them on the telephone weeks earlier and Travis planning to take sexual pictures, you feel he was coerced? I'm intrigued what evidence lies behind the theory from yourself and PocketAccent?

 

[Hope4More]

IMO the number of words is not the point. She is manipulating him.
Has to tell him something. Things.
Oops an accidental text
He doesn't have to reply yet he does...one word or not
The re establishing communication then leads to thawing on his part
We don't know how often they spoke by phone during this period
By June 2nd they speak for an hour then she heads towards his house

The oh so lean # of words and the nature of the texts matters, IMO, because they deviate from their previous pattern of communication, saying to me that the cycle WAS broken.

Did he have to reply at all? He shouldn't have, right, certainly in the abstract. Number one rule for dealing with a sociopath. Of course she was still trying to manipulate him. But the fact that he tossed 20 words her way doesn't suggest to me that she had succeeded. He thought she was 1,000 miles away and was done with her, and could not possibly have imagined she was on her way to kill him. If she was holding something over his head, maybe he thought he couldn't take the risk of ignoring her texts altogether. That he replied with 20 words doesn't suggest any kind of thaw to me, but that of course, is JMO.

 

[kmp3]

Really about JM and grating? Had the opposite affect on me--I cheered him everytime. Love me those YES or NO's. Like many around these parts, iirc, even took to applying some of that binary question-posing on the home front for a time.

Yeah, I know, right? I was surprised by my own reaction too. Maybe it's because I've listened to it too many times? idk, but YES OR NO? YES OR NO? YES OR NO? for the billionth time was GAAAAAAH! lol Interestingly, I saw JM's interview about why he did that, and he said he couldn't allow her to control the cross--which she would inevitably do by rambling on and on in response to questions. So I understand and support why he did it. But :gaah:


And LOL about the binary question posing. Hrmmm...maybe I should try that around here.

 

[geevee]

Reposting......



ALL KNOWN COMMUNICTION BETWEEN TRAVIS AND JA AFTER THE MAY 26 GCHAT

(all texts are paraphrased, and are from Beth Karas's On Crime subscription website).

May 26. No texts (after Gchat, which ended at 4:47 or 4:49AM).

The Hughes say she sent him an email after the chat, reasserting she did not slash his tires and that she was going to a lawyer on Monday. The email exists, then, but wasn’t entered into evidence.

May 27. No texts.
May 28. No texts.
May 29. No texts.

May 30. (5 texts, 4 from her, he replies to just one. Notice she asks him to call, not to text or email).

10:52AM. Hey, have about an hour today if you need any help.

12:23PM I was way off. Call me when yr done working.

12:24PM TA: Way off on what. (only reply).

1:46PM Had been looking at wrong calendar. Call me later.

3:30PM Missed your call. At work. Call me/you tonight?


May 31. (8 texts, one set of exchanges, between 10:11PM – 10:28PM, beginning with one of her un- accidental texts).


10:11. JA. Lame. Did u get it?

10:12. Get what. (one of 3 replies to her texts)

10:15. Whoops. Meant that to go to Angela, a pic. Didn’t hear from you today but I know how the day can go.

10:17. Yes that one is for you (has sent a pic).

10:21. No pic. (2 of 3 replies).

10:22. The one from earlier.

10:22 TA: yeah. Got that (last of 3 replies).

10:28PM. JA: Taken right after I sang national anthem.

June 1—early AM June 2. ( Eight texts, all related to her insistence TA call her. Not text, not email, only a call will do).

10:49PM. JA Call me. Something to tell you.

10:51PM JA Things, plural.

10:52PM. TA: what is it. (1st reply).

2:06AM, 2:12AM, 2:219AM… JA. Call Call. Call. Hurry up, getting sleepy. Stupid poem about TA, call.

2:26AM. TA--- Doing something, will call when I can. (2nd and last reply; he waited approx.. 30 minutes to call her).

2:27AM. JA: ok Tdogg. Like my poem?


JA also called him 4 times between 1 AM and 3AM: the longest call was 17 seconds.

TA called her twice, with a very brief break in between the two calls, total call length was just under an hour, from approx 3-4AM.

JA called one last time, at 4:03AM. The call lasted 2 minutes, 48 seconds; she may or may not have spoken to him. She’s packed and ready, leaves after the call.

June 2. No texts. (After 2:27AM).

June 3. No texts.

Calls by JA to TA on June 3:

12:57PM. 17 seconds

1:51PM. 2 minutes, 50 seconds

8:16PM. 2 minutes, 9 seconds.

8:34PM. 49 seconds


June 4. No texts.



ETA: He texted her a grand total of 20 words between 4:47AM May 26 and June 4.

Do we know (in min/sec) how long the June 4th voice mail was that she left him after killing him?

 

[kmp3]

IMO the number of words is not the point. She is manipulating him.
Has to tell him something. Things.
Oops an accidental text
He doesn't have to reply yet he does...one word or not
The re establishing communication then leads to thawing on his part
We don't know how often they spoke by phone during this period
By June 2nd they speak for an hour then she heads towards his house

I agree. The fact that he responded at all is evidence to me that he was not yet over this particular addiction. She was still able to lure him in. God, I hate JA.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I won't speak for Tex, but in my case, at least, the sex on June 4 isn't where my addiction assertion BEGINS--it's the culmination of months and months of trying to break things off with her and ultimately being unable to. That, to me, fits the disruption of someone who is addicted. TA used the word and his friends and family also used it to describe this toxic thing between JA and TA. Even if they didn't know everything going on in his life, they knew TA's character better than any of us ever will--which is significant, imo.

Tex Mex has tremendous recall and knowledge of the case from my observations. From his arguments it seems clear to me that he is taking the entire picture into account. June 4 is naturally a part of that.

 

[Hope4More]

I'm not working backwards...I'm just not stopping at May 26th. She continued the manipulation and eventually manipulated her way back into his home and his bed giving her access to kill him

But...see....you are assuming she manipulated him on June 4, and that he yielded to her manipulations, and the evidence you provide for that is timestamped photos of sex on June 4. There are different possibilities for why he had sex with her that day. If they did have sex, which I'll stipulate to, even if I'm not 100% convinced.

I asked you last night--would you assume what you assume had everything else been the same but gender? If Travis had been a woman and his stalker a man?

 

[Hope4More]

Do we know (in min/sec) how long the June 4th voice mail was that she left him after killing him?

Don't know off hand, but it was played in court, so can be known, and transcripts of the call may be found in plethora of places online.


PS- do you ever have moments when you flashback to high school days? I've been getting those the past few days. Is that a sign of ...senility or some such?

 

[Hope4More]

I agree. The fact that he responded at all is evidence to me that he was not yet over this particular addiction. She was still able to lure him in. God, I hate JA.

Are you referring to yet another addiction? Perhaps he was also text-addicted?

 

[kmp3]

But...see....you are assuming she manipulated him on June 4, and that he yielded to her manipulations, and the evidence you provide for that is timestamped photos of sex on June 4. There are different possibilities for why he had sex with her that day. If they did have sex, which I'll stipulate to, even if I'm not 100% convinced.

I asked you last night--would you assume what you assume had everything else been the same but gender? If Travis had been a woman and his stalker a man?

Curiously, what might the other reasons be for the June 4 sex? If he was, as you have said, trying to cut things off with her, then why have sex with her? To pacify her for fear she would blackmail him? If that were the case, then why take photos? Even MORE evidence she could use against him in the future. And though the pics were on his memory card, she is known to have sticky fingers...

So let's break this down for the sake of argument. What could the other reasons be?

-to pacify her, so she won't blackmail him
-because he's addicted and can't say no.
-he was raped
-she was there, so why the heck not?

Or....anyone have any other thoughts about why?

 

[Hope4More]

It's true that people can use the word flippantly. But in this case, TA suspected JA of hacking into his account, slashing his tires, emailing Lisa as someone else, stealing his ring, stealing his journals, stalking him...and yet, there are pics of them together on June 4. What is that, if not addiction? I'm still trying to understand how that doesn't fit the definition of the word. Couple that with the fact that TA admitted he was addicted in his own words. It's certainly wasn't a flippant, or casual conversation.

What is it? Being the emotionally vulnerable and devout Mormon prey of a sociopath who after being confused and in denial for a very long time confronted his abuser and cut her off (way to go, Travis!!!!), only to have his sociopathic stalker surprise him in his own home. Another word? Fear.

 

[kmp3]

Are you referring to yet another addiction? Perhaps he was also text-addicted?

Nope. Same one! Though he was certainly text addicted. Gah. Reading through his texts was like :laughing:All of my texts could fit on five pages. LOL That guy was texting constantly!

 

[kmp3]

What is it? Being the emotionally vulnerable and devout Mormon prey of a sociopath who after being confused and in denial for a very long time confronted his abuser and cut her off (way to go, Travis!!!!), only to have his sociopathic stalker surprise him in his own home. Another word? Fear.

So his response to fear is to get her naked? lol

 

[TrialWatcher]

There has never been a sign to me that any addiction of any kind is going on. People bandy around the word "addiction" on a moment to moment basis as if it is meaningful. (...)


The word "addiction" is a total red-herring.

Travis was the one 'bandying' around the term addiction.

Travis' own words - during the G-Chat on 26 May.


Travis emphasised that despite all that had happened - Arias' voice drew him in. He tells her that she is ruining his life but he is addicted. The word addicted is used repeatedly. Examples from the G-chat captured below, as best I could in a short time.

“Travis - Because I am addicted

Travis - You are ruining my life but I’m addicted

Travis - I am in partial addiction to you

Travis - I’ m addicted to it

Travis - Yet I am addicted to it

Travis - I’m addicted”"

You see no sign, just in that one chat that Travis was addicted? Travis' own words aren't meaningful? Nor in the host of evidence presented or the word of his family and friends?

 

[geevee]

I think if they had sex on June 4th it was coercive as well. And if he had to—or did—go along with it under pressure, he would have been especially vulnerable in the shower, because he would have been filled with guilt and afraid. This is a lot more complicated than "I don't want JA to take photos, but I'll just get it over with and she'll go away."

I think one of the very few things she was truthful about was her saying he was very private about his showering and wouldn't willingly allow her or anyone else to take pictures of him in the nude - in all of the shower pictures before the surprised-turning around one he looks far too comfortable, esp. if we're talking about allowing her to do so, who he knows at this point he simply cannot trust and is not having willful contact with. Put nude pics of him on his camera, that he's taking to Cancun with Mimi, Sky and Chris? It defies logic, imo.

Many of the shower pics were taken just seconds apart and not one has him even looking in the direction of the camera/photographer, I still have a hard time believing he knew she was taking them until the turning one and then he so quickly gets to the floor of the shower that he bangs his knee on his nose/mouth hard enough to make his nose bleed and scrape his lip - if he had known she was there with the camera, whether armed with a weapon or not, I think we'd have seen it in his face.

Some may inquire "What about the bedroom nudes?" My response is - in the only two pics of him he appears to have been dozing and not willingly involved in picture taking, as evidenced by him throwing the bottle at the camera. "What about the photo shoot/tree tying fantasy?" In all of that convo, it was about taking pics of her, not of him.

And no, I don't believe they had sex on June 4th, not with all of the imputed evidence to the contrary that I see.

 

[Hope4More]

Travis was the one 'bandying' around the term addiction.

Travis' own words - during the G-Chat on 26 May.


Travis emphasised that despite all that had happened - Arias' voice drew him in. He tells her that she is ruining his life but he is addicted. The word addicted is used repeatedly. Examples from the G-chat captured below, as best I could in a short time.

“Travis - Because I am addicted

Travis - You are ruining my life but I’m addicted

Travis - I am in partial addiction to you

Travis - I’ m addicted to it

Travis - Yet I am addicted to it

Travis - I’m addicted”"

You see no sign, just in that one chat that Travis was addicted? Travis' own words aren't meaningful? Nor in the host of evidence presented or the word of his family and friends?

Nope. Sure don't. In terms of the chat, sure, his words are meaningful, which is why I trust he accurately expressed himself with the other 98.2% of the words he spoke that strongly suggest he hated her, thought she was a and a *advertiser censored*, evil, and a liar to the core. And what I trust is that there was a reason why he was throwing that addicted word around when he did in the chat, and that oh my did it not have a thing in the world to do with wanting to be in contact with her ever again.

And somehow I bet none of his friends or family think Travis had sex with her that day, if he did, because he was "addicted."

 

[TrialWatcher]

(...) And there's something about JW's voice, and girly mannerisms, that make me want to scream and claw at her face--so I hardly ever watch her questioning. :gaah:

Hahaha - like when she says:

"I don't think so" - like she isn't in court but answering some trivia quiz. Did you ever see the Arias parody by Courtney Pauroso?

[video=youtube;UTUL6P6mQAg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTUL6P6mQAg[/video]

She captures her mannerisms and silly voice so well. It still makes me laugh.

 

[TexMex]

These are great points, and I would agree with this assessment if not for the sex on June 4. Like most addicts, I'm sure he wanted to be completely done with her--I don't think anyone can dispute that. What defines an addict is wanting to end a certain behavior, and being unable to do so. The sex on June 4 is evidence that he was unable to cut things off with her, despite his attempts to do so.

Had he not been brutally murdered, I suspect eventually, he would have moved on. There were certainly signs of that as you mention above. He was making a real effort to cut things off with her. Ultimately, he failed. Like being addicted to anything--it's not impossible to quit, but it's difficult.

I won't speak for Tex, but in my case, at least, the sex on June 4 isn't where my addiction assertion BEGINS--it's the culmination of months and months of trying to break things off with her and ultimately being unable to. That, to me, fits the disruption of someone who is addicted. TA used the word and his friends and family also used it to describe this toxic thing between JA and TA. Even if they didn't know everything going on in his life, they knew TA's character better than any of us ever will--which is significant, imo.

Preach

 

[kmp3]

Hahaha - like when she says:

"I don't think so" - like she isn't in court but answering some trivia quiz. Did you ever see the Arias parody by Courtney Pauroso?

[video=youtube;UTUL6P6mQAg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTUL6P6mQAg[/video]

She captures her mannerisms and silly voice so well. It still makes me laugh.

Omg, that video is so funny! When she's asked if she killed travis..."Yesssss, I did. I think. No, I did." So accurate. lol

 

[geevee]

Don't know off hand, but it was played in court, so can be known, and transcripts of the call may be found in plethora of places online.


PS- do you ever have moments when you flashback to high school days? I've been getting those the past few days. Is that a sign of ...senility or some such?

Oh goodness, do I ever. lol I'm wondering if that voice mail is typical of the type she left and is similar length to the ones she left (if those calls are VMs) while on her murderous journey. I'm betting it's not far off.