Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #5

[Hope4More]

YAY, no sex on June 4, 2008. I am not alone in my thought process after all. :happydance:

You know you're not.

Plenty of good company to be found here on that.....

 

[salberg7]

Travis didn't worry about the nude pics of himself because it was his camera. He knew she was taking the pics because the shower door was open. The picture taking was all a rouse by her to get him in a vulnerable position. One of the reasons I am pretty sure about them having sex that day is because she used the opportunity to get him comfortable, and a man doesn't pose with KY jelly next to him in a bed if they weren't going to have sex. Was he raped? Absolutely not. This one last time, for him, was just for old times sake. He never imagined what she was about to do, not in a million years.
The killer doesn't look really comfortable in her nude pics because she knew she was about to kill him and just waiting for the opportunity. That was the whole purpose of the trip - to stay under the radar, sweep in and sweep out of the state unnoticed.
It was all a game with them. Both were addicted to each other - the drama, the arguments, everything. They even went on a trip together in March! He couldn't stay away from her.
JMHO of course. And we will never know. We can speculate all we want, but we don't and never will know the facts of their relationship.

 

[Val1]

Yes. He was already yielding to them. Even one word responses to her texts give her all the opening she needs. Next they speak by phone. Before you know it he's returning her calls and speaking to the person he fought with five days earlier for an hour.
She's a sociopath. That's like her job.

My problem with this whole scenario is basically that some people are assuming that TA even understood what a person with these "conditions" are truly capable of, instead of just using popular terms to describe the assaults he was being subjected to by her in the only way he knew how to describe them, let alone had any real knowledge of how to deal with it. Back in the day, jealousy(btw also considered a sin), was how you would commonly describe her actions, now we've come to understand there is often a fine line between jealousy, simple obsession(ocd in its milder form), and the full blown psychiatric type illnesses that can manifest ultimately in murder.

 

[geevee]

What, "imputed evidence" is there to suggest she didn't have sex with Travis? I have seen several people state they believe he may have been raped by Arias or didn't have sex. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest this is anything but hugely improbable. Two juries believed they had sex. Travis' family didn't claim otherwise. Nor did the defense. I can't find a jot of strong or even weak evidence to support the opinion on this forum or elsewhere.

You state that Travis was only in two of the pics. He was taking the pics. You know that there was a photo of his knee demonstrating to Juan Martinez that Travis was the photographer. Martinez described one of the pics as showing sexual arousal - to put it delicately. The graphic nature of the pics suggests they were sexual to a very intimate degree. If he was taking the pics there is no evidence it is under duress and Arias herself was naked and vulnerable in certain positions.

As for your last point on the sex tape - it wasn't just about him taking pics of Jodi. Travis says "Is it wrong that I'm glad that we started *advertiser censored*****"? This weeks before his murder. Despite losing Lisa, having things stolen, endless grief and drama, he wanted sex with Arias. Even phone sex. She was "the prototype of sluttiness" and Travis was going to be in the photos planned.

BBM

The text evidence in the May 26 chats/texts that he was done with her, in all ways.

The evidence of the Spybot file that started up on his laptop at the same minute two of the nudes were being taken.

The evidence of the pic of her backside being taken at 1:44:00 (same time as the Spybot file activating) and 50 seconds later Travis is lying in bed looking like he's asleep.

The evidence that her hair is lighter in a dark room than it is in the selfies taken June 3rd in broad daylight.

Her purse on the end of his bed doesn't say 'we're having a sex and picture-taking party' to me:



I just assess the evidence, I don't make it up.

 

[pocketaccent]

Sorry for breaking your current topic but getting back to the video and stills you had mentioned your hb took of you, did you happen to notice if the stills he pulled from the video were in proper sequence as per when they would have occurred in the video, or did they only reflect the times that the pics were actually pulled from it?

ie. dates/times fictional for example purposes... instead of the pics showing they were from 02/21/16 at 7:45pm when the event actually occurred on the video(assuming the date/time on the camera was correct), they had 02/29/16 at 3:33pm when they were pulled from the video before both the video and the pics may have been deleted?

I hope you get what I'm asking.. last question, is your camera the same model/make as TA's... :gaah:

Hi Val! long time no see. Nice to see you

The video I posted is from 15 years ago, the camera used was a JVC which I donated to The Salvation Army since, and all pictures from that video were saved on a floppy disk. Both of us had no reason to look at the meta data from the photos, so I don't know to your questions.

However, you might find the following experimentation I did with my current Samsung camera interesting. My camera doesn't let me take stills while I'm shooting a video(or I just don't know how), but it does let me while I'm viewing the video on my camera.

This is the result (as an example):
6:00 to 6:03 I make a video
6:04 I start to play the video on my camera
6:05 I pause the video and take a photo of that image A (I'm doing this on my camera)
6:06 I pause again and take a photo of image B
6:10 I upload the video and 2 photos to my computer

File information as below:
photo A - 6:05
photo B - 6:06

 

[TexMex]

And you know the jury believed they had sex....because how? I don't remember the jury verdict being contingent upon that belief.

You said a few days ago that you also believed they had sex, June 4 2008

 

[TexMex]

Just your opinion about Travis, maybe, but the rest is not opinion-it's fact.

I'm kinda amazed-and dismayed- actually, how all the sudden here Travis the victim is being transformed into Travis the sex addict who willingly opened the door to his stalker, alas, otherwise , had he not been addicted to sex, he might still be alive.

After 3 years, with more information available now than was known in either trial, much of it that directly contradicts any such contention. Really?

The addiction to Jodi...related by his family, his friends and Travis himself is not victim bashing. It's helpful in understanding how the pattern of their relationship led to his murder by Arias.

 

[TrialWatcher]

Nope. Sure don't. In terms of the chat, sure, his words are meaningful, which is why I trust he accurately expressed himself with the other 98.2% of the words he spoke that strongly suggest he hated her, thought she was a and a *advertiser censored*, evil, and a liar to the core. And what I trust is that there was a reason why he was throwing that addicted word around when he did in the chat, and that oh my did it not have a thing in the world to do with wanting to be in contact with her ever again.

And somehow I bet none of his friends or family think Travis had sex with her that day, if he did, because he was "addicted."

You believe 98% of Travis words, with the exception of his repeated statements regarding being addicted to Arias? I have no problem accepting all of his words as a reflection of what he was feeling in that G-Chat. His anger, frustration, indignation at not being able to get the truth and resignation over his relationship with Arias are easy to read. He uses the word addiction to explain why he takes her back when she is ruining his life - against the advice of his friends.


“Travis - Because I am addicted

Travis - You are ruining my life but I’m addicted

Travis - I am in partial addiction to you

Travis - I’ m addicted to it

Travis - Yet I am addicted to it

Travis - I’m addicted”


Hope4More - “And somehow I bet none of his friends or family think Travis had sex with her that day, if he did, because he was "addicted."

Where have his family ever said they didn’t believe Travis had sex with Arias? Samantha and others have spoken about the addictive nature of their relationship. Sex played a huge part in that as Arias had little else to offer.


[video=youtube;20AtfU3HjWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20AtfU3HjWA[/video]

Samantha - Travis Alexander’s sister:

“I think that she was just - basically - just like a drug to him”

One minute ten seconds in.


Sky Hughes - Friend of Travis Alexander

“She tried being the perfect mormon girl. When that didn’t get him then she tried - the sex”

One minute in.

There are other references relating to Travis being addicted to Arias. Chris Hughes claimed Travis was addicted to Arias - IIRC - on Twitter. He mentioned the ‘festivities’. Dave Hall - another friend: “Jodi was Travis’ drug of choice. Anyone that thinks sex can’t be addictive is nuts.”

Travis’ own words, those of his family, friends and the evidence are 'compelling'. No one is disagreeing, as far as I can see, that he felt fury for her during that chat. He had done with her for purposes of romance a long time before but the sexual attraction remained. She used it on June 4 to manipulate him sexually one last fatal time.

 

[TexMex]

BBM

The text evidence in the May 26 chats/texts that he was done with her, in all ways.

The evidence of the Spybot file that started up on his laptop at the same minute two of the nudes were being taken.

The evidence of the pic of her backside being taken at 1:44:00 (same time as the Spybot file activating) and 50 seconds later Travis is lying in bed looking like he's asleep.

The evidence that her hair is lighter in a dark room than it is in the selfies taken June 3rd in broad daylight.

Her purse on the end of his bed doesn't say 'we're having a sex and picture-taking party' to me:

View attachment 90656

I just assess the evidence, I don't make it up.

Spybot also activated on June 10 while Travis was dead and Jodi was serving pot roast at the Purple Plum

 

[TexMex]

You believe 98% of Travis words, with the exception of his repeated statements regarding being addicted to Arias? I have no problem accepting all of his words as a reflection of what he was feeling in that G-Chat. His anger, frustration, indignation at not being able to get the truth and resignation over his relationship with Arias are easy to read. He uses the word addiction to explain why he takes her back when she is ruining his life - against the advice of his friends.


“Travis - Because I am addicted

Travis - You are ruining my life but I’m addicted

Travis - I am in partial addiction to you

Travis - I’ m addicted to it

Travis - Yet I am addicted to it

Travis - I’m addicted”


Hope4More - “And somehow I bet none of his friends or family think Travis had sex with her that day, if he did, because he was "addicted."

Where have his family ever said they didn’t believe Travis had sex with Arias? Samantha and others have spoken about the addictive nature of their relationship. Sex played a huge part in that as Arias had little else to offer.


[video=youtube;20AtfU3HjWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20AtfU3HjWA[/video]

Samantha - Travis Alexander’s sister:

[/I]“I think that she was just - basically - just like a drug to him”

One minute ten seconds in.


Sky Hughes - Friend of Travis Alexander

“She tried being the perfect mormon girl. When that didn’t get him then she tried - the sex”

One minute in.

There are other references relating to Travis being addicted to Arias. Chris Hughes claimed Travis was addicted to Arias - IIRC - on Twitter. He mentioned the ‘festivities’. Dave Hall - another friend: “Jodi was Travis’ drug of choice. Anyone that thinks sex can’t be addictive is nuts.”

Travis’ own words, those of his family, his friends and the evidence are 'compelling'. No one is disagreeing, as far as I can see that he felt fury for her during that chat. He had done with her for purposes of romance a long time before but the sexual attraction remained. She used it on June 4 to manipulate him sexually one last fatal time.

Yep

Travis:

I tried to stay away this time.
But you called
And you made sure I heard your voice
U knew that would be enough
Not how many infractions
You just kill me
Every time
And I keep taking you back
I have come to terms with it
I am in partial addicted to you
The positives
If all you were is positive
Or your good facad that is in fact an act
I'm addicted to it
But it is bullshiz
Yet I'm addicted to it
And you know it
And you know I will take you back
You always know
You know I'll get pissed but I'll take you back

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Okay. I have kept silent throughout the debates, BUT, I can only shut up for a short time as I have read so many varying "opinions" on naked pics=sex. I have seen zero evidence of "sex" on June 4th. Naked pics do not equate sex acts as I am sure everyone is aware of, so where is the proof? Someone, anyone? The pics of Travis appear to be of a sleeping and just recently awoken, and yes, KY bottle staged Travis. The pics of the butcheress are not sexual, they are disgusting displays of her nasty female parts. There is no "proof" that the timestamps are correct, so IMO no one has actual PROOF that any sex occurred that day. JMO.

 

[RickshawFan]

These are great points, and I would agree with this assessment if not for the sex on June 4. Like most addicts, I'm sure he wanted to be completely done with her--I don't think anyone can dispute that. What defines an addict is wanting to end a certain behavior, and being unable to do so. The sex on June 4 is evidence that he was unable to cut things off with her, despite his attempts to do so.

Had he not been brutally murdered, I suspect eventually, he would have moved on. There were certainly signs of that as you mention above. He was making a real effort to cut things off with her. Ultimately, he failed. Like being addicted to anything--it's not impossible to quit, but it's difficult.

I won't speak for Tex, but in my case, at least, the sex on June 4 isn't where my addiction assertion BEGINS--it's the culmination of months and months of trying to break things off with her and ultimately being unable to. That, to me, fits the disruption of someone who is addicted. TA used the word and his friends and family also used it to describe this toxic thing between JA and TA. Even if they didn't know everything going on in his life, they knew TA's character better than any of us ever will--which is significant, imo.

Too many people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that if TA weren't "addicted", he would have stopped responding to JA's manipulations. Let's see....That didn't work for DB, MM, the goth guy....?

And no weight seems to be getting placed on how trauma survivors are. Sometimes, when people have been extremely injured, they get repetition compulsion. They try the same thing over and over, thinking they can rewrite the script they are living. JA knows this, and she was taking advantage the whole time: that's why her manipulations worked.

 

[RickshawFan]

I asked you last night--would you assume what you assume had everything else been the same but gender? If Travis had been a woman and his stalker a man?

Thanks for bringing up the gender bias. It seems that it's hard for some people to believe that men could get raped, women could be stalkers, if a man gets manipulated he must be addicted, a guy can overpower a woman even if he's in the nude, a woman who could drag a man's dead-weight body around must be physically vulnerable....

 

[RickshawFan]

If they had sex on June 4th, JA raped Travis IMO. He didn't want her there and he was scared. Female-male rape is different from male-female rape. Rape doesn't have to be violent and yes photos can be taken during and yes the man can be aroused. JMO.

Agreed. Women can be aroused during rape as well.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Yep
I also think that women are smarter than men regarding stalkers (dangers of) and more importantly s-e-x

I guess that may be why they say "we sit on a goldmine":shame:

 

[TexMex]

Okay. I have kept silent throughout the debates, BUT, I can only shut up for a short time as I have read so many varying "opinions" on naked pics=sex. I have seen zero evidence of "sex" on June 4th. Naked pics do not equate sex acts as I am sure everyone is aware of, so where is the proof? Someone, anyone? The pics of Travis appear to be of a sleeping and just recently awoken, and yes, KY bottle staged Travis. The pics of the butcheress are not sexual, they are disgusting displays of her nasty female parts. There is no "proof" that the timestamps are correct, so IMO no one has actual PROOF that any sex occurred that day. JMO.

The time stamps were verified by EXIF data. The pic taken of her bent over, taken by Travis with his new camera, was a photo of her immediately after anal sex. He took pictures of what he'd just "done". They discussed taking exactly such pictures in their May 10 recording.

Again, ladies sorry about the graphic language.

 

[TexMex]

Did both juries even once question that they doubted they had sex? Did the family? Did the jurors say in interviews afterwards, "Oh, we didn't believe they had sex". Only from a few people on this forum have I seen that theory put forwarded with no convincing evidence beyond opinion to back it up. I have seen you state that you don't believe they had sex and then that you changed your mind and that they did have sex. Have you changed it back again? I'm trying to keep up.

They believed. They even asked her what her definition of a *advertiser censored* is...

 

[RickshawFan]

Hi Val! long time no see. Nice to see you

The video I posted is from 15 years ago, the camera used was a JVC which I donated to The Salvation Army since, and all pictures from that video were saved on a floppy disk. Both of us had no reason to look at the meta data from the photos, so I don't know to your questions.

However, you might find the following experimentation I did with my current Samsung camera interesting. My camera doesn't let me take stills while I'm shooting a video(or I just don't know how), but it does let me while I'm viewing the video on my camera.

This is the result (as an example):
6:00 to 6:03 I make a video
6:04 I start to play the video on my camera
6:05 I pause the video and take a photo of that image A (I'm doing this on my camera)
6:06 I pause again and take a photo of image B
6:10 I upload the video and 2 photos to my computer

File information as below:
photo A - 6:05
photo B - 6:06

Fascinating....I had been waiting for this info, too. We'd have the shower photos time-stamped according to when Jodi turned a video into snapshots.

Come to think of it, that could apply to the "sex" photos as well.

 

[TexMex]

Fascinating....I had been waiting for this info, too. We'd have the shower photos time-stamped according to when Jodi turned a video into snapshots.

She murders a man on video, then watches the video, takes snapshots spaced 11 minutes apart and three of which are accidental, then she goes through a five step process to delete them? Why?

 

[Caylee Advocate]

<modsnip> Can someone please tell me at what point in the trial the "knee" was discussed and Juan agreed it was Travis' knee? I know I was drinking on some days of the trial but I simply do not recall it. Not saying it didn't happen, but IDR it.