Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #5

[Caylee Advocate]

The pic in JM's book. I am also around footwear a lot in my work, so I pay attention to shoe profiles, foot shape, arches, socks, etc

One of Gray's earlier videos.

[video=youtube;V9vPCIxhu-8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9vPCIxhu-8[/video]

 

[TrialWatcher]

The one thing that does not make sense to me- why was she dragging him away from the bathroom, down the hallway towards the bedroom?? I thought she wanted him back in the shower and he was trying to escape out the bedroom door???:waitasec:

I see your point. Could she have started by dragging Travis' feet? Then swapped to trying his arms and turning him around?

 

[kmp3]

The one thing that does not make sense to me- why was she dragging him away from the bathroom, down the hallway towards the bedroom?? I thought she wanted him back in the shower and he was trying to escape out the bedroom door???:waitasec:

Yeah, this is perplexing to me too. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

 

[kmp3]

I see your point. Could she have started by dragging Travis' feet? Then swapped to trying his arms and turning him around?

This is what I'm thinking too.

 

[RickshawFan]

One of Gray's earlier videos.

[video=youtube;V9vPCIxhu-8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9vPCIxhu-8[/video]

I actually believe (with input from others) the shoes might be the ones Jodi's wearing in the interrogation with EF, or similar. Black shoes, bootie shape, maybe high top sneakers if not.

We discussed a ways upthread that a shoe box for shoes like that was found in Jodi's room in Yreka.

The profile of the shoe in the forefoot is like the one in this video, but the tongue is wider across. The eyelets for the laces come down the side of the shoe more. You can see the bumps for the laces over the tongue in the new photo JM provided.

The black socks are over the shoes: clear premeditation.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I actually believe (with input from others) the shoes might be the ones Jodi's wearing in the interrogation with EF, or similar. Black shoes, bootie shape, maybe high top sneakers if not.

We discussed a ways upthread that a shoe box for shoes like that was found in Jodi's room in Yreka.

The profile of the shoe in the forefoot is like the one in this video, but the tongue is wider across. The eyelets for the laces come down the side of the shoe more. You can see the bumps for the laces over the tongue in the new photo JM provided.

The black socks are over the shoes: clear premeditation.

Yes, I remember that discussion, and you pointing out eyelets and laces. As you say, you work in a field where shoes are a normal for you, so I can see your point. Yes, there were definitely socks, and IIRC, dark socks were found in the washer.

 

[geevee]

Geevee-

I forgot to post my little bit of phone info for you, sorry. TA’s phone service in 2008, Verizon, had default setting (could be modified) for how many seconds a phone would ring before going to VM. Verizon also set the interlude time between rings (could not be modified).

1. The default setting for how long a phone would ring before being transferred to VM was 32 seconds, or 8 rings.

2. Verizon set the between ring time of 4 seconds.

3. So, again the 4 calls the made on June 3:



Calls by JA to TA on June 3, ordered by duration.



12:57PM. 17 seconds (TA didn’t answer, the phone rang under 5 times, didn’t go to VM.


8:34PM. 49 seconds (If TA answered it was with a FU and hangup). If the call went to VM the recorded message was less than 17 seconds, given his message would have least begun to play before it was bypassed, if that was even possible on T’s phone.


8:16PM. 2 minutes, 9 seconds. One of 2 calls where it’s even possible they spoke. If he didn’t answer the call, the VM she left was no longer than 97 seconds, one minute and 37 seconds, minus the time to listen to or bypass his recorded message.


1:51PM. 2 minutes, 50 seconds . 2 of 2 calls where it’s even possible they spoke. If he didn’t answer the call, the VM she left was no longer than 138 seconds, 2 minutes and 18 seconds, minus the time to listen to or bypass his recorded message.


I checked out the BK transcript for recorded VM’s on TA’s phone, but the log doesn’t include message duration.

I read out the psycho VM she left him that night to time it. I typically speak very rapidly, but sped up a wee bit to err on the side of a shorter rather longer message, and I did not allocate time to her many “um” pause. I came up with a time of just under one and a half minutes, 90 odd seconds, but the actual time is probably closer to 2 minutes.


Just as you thought, that’s roughly the same amount of time as the 2 calls on the 3rd. Time enough for one very short breathless VM, or time enough for the phone to ring a few times and go to VM before TA picked up, or time enough for the phone to ring a few times, for TA to pick up, and for them to have a conversation where they each spoke for a whole approx. one minute apiece.


There are no VM’s from her on his phone other than her post-slaughter psycho call. Based on the gaps in the VM transcript, though, there’s very little doubt she went into his phone and deleted VM’s. (IIRC, Mr. Phone’s testimony was that she had the access to do that).



(hugs, and you’re welcome). 

Thanks so much for having done this Hope, truly and greatly appreciated (((hugs))), I'll bet anything he was screening her calls and she was leaving VMs on her trip down there and then as Jody Citizen (I think) said, that 16 minute access to his phone after she killed him was her going in and wiping out all of those out. Some shaking, scared chihuahua she was! Thanks again Hope, you're magnificent.

 

[grayhuze]

I made that video and it's posted above.

 

[grayhuze]

I think a lot of people just see what they want to see. All I ever saw was dark socks pants with a stripe and zipper, Travis' head, shoulders, arm and small foot in background do to the wide angle lens. It's not a mystery. Where the photo was taken, however was, and that is now solved.

 

[Night-owl]

Thanks for an insightful post, Hatfield. I agree that the religious aspects were a factor. Travis himself used the word addicted - repeatedly. In the same conversation, Arias detailed how the addicting the sex was. As I don't think Travis wanted a serious relationship with Arias - the addiction Travis referred to seems physical. Perfectly normal to have a physical relationship with a partner - for most people - unless complicated by chastity aims.

I don't see Travis as a sex addict anymore than JA is. It's not the right word, even though people use it a lot. Like, "O noes!! I'm addicted to these dang Wasabi peas!" No, no you're not. Not really.

Travis had an entanglement with JA. I think it would be fair to say there was some elements of obsession on his part. The logical part of him didn't want her around. Unfortunately, we all have an emotional side of ourselves that doesn't want to hear about logic. Feelings are feelings, never expect that they should make sense.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[TrialWatcher]

I haven't seen a single person arguing here that Travis was a 'sex addict' in the 'clinical' sense. Not have I seen anyone suggest he was addicted to sex with a range of women. Far from it. Travis himself defined his relationship with Arias repeating the word addicted. Those are his words. Sex with Arias was the behaviour he kept returning to - despite everything. She defined the sex as addicting in the G-Chat. He didn't correct her. Some elements of obsession? Sex is the one that springs to mind as she had little left to offer. His own sister, Samantha suggested a drug like dependency. Was that to her sweet, honest nature? Or the points he described in the sex chat on May 10?

 

[Val1]

Hi Val! long time no see. Nice to see you

The video I posted is from 15 years ago, the camera used was a JVC which I donated to The Salvation Army since, and all pictures from that video were saved on a floppy disk. Both of us had no reason to look at the meta data from the photos, so I don't know to your questions.

However, you might find the following experimentation I did with my current Samsung camera interesting. My camera doesn't let me take stills while I'm shooting a video(or I just don't know how), but it does let me while I'm viewing the video on my camera.

This is the result (as an example):
6:00 to 6:03 I make a video
6:04 I start to play the video on my camera
6:05 I pause the video and take a photo of that image A (I'm doing this on my camera)
6:06 I pause again and take a photo of image B
6:10 I upload the video and 2 photos to my computer

File information as below:
photo A - 6:05
photo B - 6:06

Thanks very much for your sleuthing on this! Now add that knowledge to what geevee had just posted and I think it shows exactly how those time stamps could have ended up on just a few of the bedroom nude pics at the same time as the Spybot activity, plus explains the cord left in TA's office with what someone had said looked like it may have had blood stains on it(ie. from a cut finger...) as well as how the sun could have been shining directly into the south facing bathroom windows at allegedly 5:30pm instead of between noon-2pm as would be more logical.

This all seems to be telling me that "someone" had been messing with(viewing) a previous video/s and pulling pics using TA's camera, some zoomed in(is that what Zack's camera had been used for when it had been found in TA's car?) that could have(at that time) easily been transferred/saved onto a cd/dvd/compatible memory stick("and much much more..." that label on the disc comes to mind). The pics pulled were then deleted for whatever reason(shame would have been mine...), then likely followed by the deadly confrontation in bathroom when caught making the surreptitious(ninja) video.

Later(5:30pm or so...) when pulling the shower pics during/after the cleanup(in office while doing laundry?) "someone" saw that they too showed more than what had been intended and deleted them as well, possibly not even realizing there was a card in the camera that could later be forensically recovered. The previously pulled and deleted bedroom pics on TA's memory card/stick were overwritten by the new shower pics/video and since the internal memory could only hold 10-15 good quality pics(see below) it seems obvious to me that whoever had been pulling pics from the videos were likely transferring/saving them to another stick/device/laptop, etc. before deleting them from the camera.

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/SonyH9/design.shtml

"Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H9 memory, ports and battery
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H9 battery door

The Sony H9 uses Memory Stick Duo or Pro Duo cards with a slot next to the battery compartment under the body; depending on the size of your tripod this door may or may not be blocked when mounted. Cards up to 8GB have been confirmed to work with the camera.

As usual there’s no card supplied, but Sony’s fitted 31MB of internal memory to get you started. With the H9’s relatively high compression, you’ll actually squeeze about ten to 15 best-quality JPEGs into the internal memory, but you should still obviously start shopping for a separate Memory Stick from day-one. The H9 also lets you copy images from the internal memory to a Memory Stick."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-General-Discussion-5&p=12416620#post12416620
Quote Originally Posted by geevee
"Just because it is a site Spybot put into the Restricted Sites area of the browser (Immunize feature) doesn't mean any Spybot files were activated. The browser history would note there was an attempt to connect to that web address but all that would have happened was a blank page on the browser with a 404 or similar message saying the site could not be accessed. "

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-General-Discussion-5&p=12416361#post12416361
Quote Originally Posted by geevee
"BBM

The text evidence in the May 26 chats/texts that he was done with her, in all ways.

The evidence of the Spybot file that started up on his laptop at the same minute two of the nudes were being taken.

The evidence of the pic of her backside being taken at 1:44:00 (same time as the Spybot file activating) and 50 seconds later Travis is lying in bed looking like he's asleep.

The evidence that her hair is lighter in a dark room than it is in the selfies taken June 3rd in broad daylight.

Her purse on the end of his bed doesn't say 'we're having a sex and picture-taking party' to me:

14715pursearrow.jpg

I just assess the evidence, I don't make it up."

 

[TexMex]

Thanks very much for your sleuthing on this! Now add that knowledge to what geevee had just posted and I think it shows exactly how those time stamps could have ended up on just a few of the bedroom nude pics at the same time as the Spybot activity, plus explains the cord left in TA's office with what someone had said looked like it may have had blood stains on it(ie. from a cut finger...) as well as how the sun could have been shining directly into the south facing bathroom windows at allegedly 5:30pm instead of between noon-2pm as would be more logical.

This all seems to be telling me that "someone" had been messing with(viewing) a previous video/s and pulling pics using TA's camera, some zoomed in(is that what Zack's camera had been used for when it had been found in TA's car?) that could have(at that time) easily been transferred/saved onto a cd/dvd/compatible memory stick("and much much more..." that label on the disc comes to mind). The pics pulled were then deleted for whatever reason(shame would have been mine...), then likely followed by the deadly confrontation in bathroom when caught making the surreptitious(ninja) video.

Later(5:30pm or so...) when pulling the shower pics during/after the cleanup(in office while doing laundry?) "someone" saw that they too showed more than what had been intended and deleted them as well, possibly not even realizing there was a card in the camera that could later be forensically recovered. The previously pulled and deleted bedroom pics on TA's memory card/stick were overwritten by the new shower pics/video and since the internal memory could only hold 10-15 good quality pics(see below) it seems obvious to me that whoever had been pulling pics from the videos were likely transferring/saving them to another stick/device/laptop, etc. before deleting them from the camera.

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/SonyH9/design.shtml

"Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H9 memory, ports and battery
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H9 battery door

The Sony H9 uses Memory Stick Duo or Pro Duo cards with a slot next to the battery compartment under the body; depending on the size of your tripod this door may or may not be blocked when mounted. Cards up to 8GB have been confirmed to work with the camera.

As usual there’s no card supplied, but Sony’s fitted 31MB of internal memory to get you started. With the H9’s relatively high compression, you’ll actually squeeze about ten to 15 best-quality JPEGs into the internal memory, but you should still obviously start shopping for a separate Memory Stick from day-one. The H9 also lets you copy images from the internal memory to a Memory Stick."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-General-Discussion-5&p=12416620#post12416620
Quote Originally Posted by geevee
"Just because it is a site Spybot put into the Restricted Sites area of the browser (Immunize feature) doesn't mean any Spybot files were activated. The browser history would note there was an attempt to connect to that web address but all that would have happened was a blank page on the browser with a 404 or similar message saying the site could not be accessed. "

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-General-Discussion-5&p=12416361#post12416361
Quote Originally Posted by geevee
"BBM

The text evidence in the May 26 chats/texts that he was done with her, in all ways.

The evidence of the Spybot file that started up on his laptop at the same minute two of the nudes were being taken.

The evidence of the pic of her backside being taken at 1:44:00 (same time as the Spybot file activating) and 50 seconds later Travis is lying in bed looking like he's asleep.

The evidence that her hair is lighter in a dark room than it is in the selfies taken June 3rd in broad daylight.

Her purse on the end of his bed doesn't say 'we're having a sex and picture-taking party' to me:

14715pursearrow.jpg

I just assess the evidence, I don't make it up."

I wrote to Sony. The Sony DSC H9 camera is not capable of taking stills while videoing or while reviewing an already taken video. To do this requires PlayMemoriesHome software

The Spybot hits were explained by Martinez as virus (vlob Trojan actually) activity, not user.

IMO Travis and Jodi took pics June 4, like they discussed on the phone. The EXIF data was created when the shutter was pressed preserving the date and time. She then lured him into her trap in the shower, took pictures, created more EXIF data, even taking an accidental pic of her standing over his bleeding body.
LE has confirmed all of this years ago.

 

[geevee]

I wrote to Sony. The Sony DSC H9 camera is not capable of taking stills while videoing or while reviewing an already taken video. To do this requires PlayMemoriesHome software

The Spybot hits were explained by Martinez as virus (vlob Trojan actually) activity, not user.

IMO Travis and Jodi took pics June 4, like they discussed on the phone. The EXIF data was created when the shutter was pressed preserving the date and time. She then lured him into her trap in the shower, took pictures, created more EXIF data, even taking an accidental pic of her standing over his bleeding body.
LE has confirmed all of this years ago.

Tex, you're missing the point about Spybot, it's not an antivirus that activates and blocks virus/malware intrusions or popups, it scans the computer for malware and removes it and the Immunize feature puts all of the known crapware sites into the Restricted Sites area of the browser so the browser cannot connect to them, whether those sites are trying to be accessed by user or virus. The Spybot file that activated at 1:44 p.m. on June 4th was user initiated.

PlayMemoriesHome software - is that something installed on a computer or on a camera? Could you install an app/software on a camera (back in '08?)?

 

[Hope4More]

I haven't seen a single person arguing here that Travis was a 'sex addict' in the 'clinical' sense. Not have I seen anyone suggest he was addicted to sex with a range of women. Far from it. Travis himself defined his relationship with Arias repeating the word addicted. Those are his words. Sex with Arias was the behaviour he kept returning to - despite everything. She defined the sex as addicting in the G-Chat. He didn't correct her. Some elements of obsession? Sex is the one that springs to mind as she had little left to offer. His own sister, Samantha suggested a drug like dependency. Was that to her sweet, honest nature? Or the points he described in the sex chat on May 10?

Nope, not a single person.


TrialWatcher: “what was Travis addicted to if not the sex?”

TrialWatcher: “Travis made that tape with her because he was sexually addicted.”

kmp3: (&#8230 “ It’s the totality of the circumstances that suggest Travis's addiction is sexual in nature. If we look at the gchat itself…...it gradually takes on a sexual tone. IF the addiction TA is referring to is NOT sexual, then what is it? (….) There is plenty of circumstantial evidence to support his addiction was sexual in nature. I'll spare everyone from posting the quotes and links, etc. because they would be numerous.”

kmp3: “If TA was not addicted to her sexually, why would he equate with her Satan and end up in bed with her June 4?”

Salberg7: “It’s safe for me to say he was addicted to sex with her as there is plenty of evidence to support it.”

Tex Mex: “(&#8230 a close friend of TA’s says that Travis became addicted to sex with (). (Friend says) anyone who thinks sex can’t be adductive is nuts….”

TexMex: He’s also likely been schooled on possible sex addiction after meeting with the bishop and elders for a repeat offense with (the ).

Kmp3:…you can’t really fault TexMex for his interpretation that Travis was addicted to sex, an opinion I share…”

ETC.

 

[Hope4More]

TA's bicycle found on the floor of the garage, as if he had just returned from his biking exercise (timeline June 4), nothing out of place, not so much a box of oatmeal on the counter, everything completely clean in the kitchen (timeline June 4, credibility).

TA's credit card found out of his wallet, on his desk (the office door was closed); one of his business cards on the closet floor (she went through his wallet); enough of a mess on the floor of T's closet that friends stepped over and around ( activity)

TA told Mimi directly that the had/was stalking him (add her to the list in a tightly knit community in which gossip was common)- Regan, Michelle, Taylor, Chris and Sky)

New information. Ain't it grand. Thank you, BK.

 

[geevee]

TA's bicycle found on the floor of the garage, as if he had just returned from his biking exercise (timeline June 4), nothing out of place, not so much a box of oatmeal on the counter, everything completely clean in the kitchen (timeline June 4, credibility).

TA's credit card found out of his wallet, on his desk (the office door was closed); one of his business cards on the closet floor (she went through his wallet); enough of a mess on the floor of T's closet that friends stepped over and around ( activity)

TA told Mimi directly that the had/was stalking him (add her to the list in a tightly knit community in which gossip was common)- Regan, Michelle, Taylor, Chris and Sky)

New information. Ain't it grand. Thank you, BK.

And thank you, Hope.

 

[TexMex]

Tex, you're missing the point about Spybot, it's not an antivirus that activates and blocks virus/malware intrusions or popups, it scans the computer for malware and removes it and the Immunize feature puts all of the known crapware sites into the Restricted Sites area of the browser so the browser cannot connect to them, whether those sites are trying to be accessed by user or virus. The Spybot file that activated at 1:44 p.m. on June 4th was user initiated.

PlayMemoriesHome software - is that something installed on a computer or on a camera? Could you install an app/software on a camera (back in '08?)?

Juan destroyed Neumeister on cross. He's the one who claimed it was user access June 4 but not on June 10 (while Travis was dead and Jodi gone) same activity.

 

[TexMex]

Nope, not a single person.


TrialWatcher: “what was Travis addicted to if not the sex?”

TrialWatcher: “Travis made that tape with her because he was sexually addicted.”

kmp3: (&#8230 “ It’s the totality of the circumstances that suggest Travis's addiction is sexual in nature. If we look at the gchat itself…...it gradually takes on a sexual tone. IF the addiction TA is referring to is NOT sexual, then what is it? (….) There is plenty of circumstantial evidence to support his addiction was sexual in nature. I'll spare everyone from posting the quotes and links, etc. because they would be numerous.”

kmp3: “If TA was not addicted to her sexually, why would he equate with her Satan and end up in bed with her June 4?”

Salberg7: “It’s safe for me to say he was addicted to sex with her as there is plenty of evidence to support it.”

Tex Mex: “(&#8230 a close friend of TA’s says that Travis became addicted to sex with (). (Friend says) anyone who thinks sex can’t be adductive is nuts….”

TexMex: He’s also likely been schooled on possible sex addiction after meeting with the bishop and elders for a repeat offense with (the ).

Kmp3:…you can’t really fault TexMex for his interpretation that Travis was addicted to sex, an opinion I share…”

ETC.

Addicted to JODI. His relationship with JODI involved SEX, not much more. I don't think he was a sex addict as in: *advertiser censored*, prostitutes, etc.
He states he's addicted to her, his friends and family do too. I agree with Travis, his family and friends.

 

[Val1]

Thanks very much for your sleuthing on this! Now add that knowledge to what geevee had just posted and I think it shows exactly how those time stamps could have ended up on just a few of the bedroom nude pics at the same time as the Spybot activity, plus explains the cord left in TA's office with what someone had said looked like it may have had blood stains on it(ie. from a cut finger...) as well as how the sun could have been shining directly into the south facing bathroom windows at allegedly 5:30pm instead of between noon-2pm as would be more logical.

This all seems to be telling me that "someone" had been messing with(viewing) a previous video/s and pulling pics using TA's camera, some zoomed in(is that what Zack's camera had been used for when it had been found in TA's car?) that could have(at that time) easily been transferred/saved onto a cd/dvd/compatible memory stick("and much much more..." that label on the disc comes to mind). The pics pulled were then deleted for whatever reason(shame would have been mine...), then likely followed by the deadly confrontation in bathroom when caught making the surreptitious(ninja) video.

Later(5:30pm or so...) when pulling the shower pics during/after the cleanup(in office while doing laundry?) "someone" saw that they too showed more than what had been intended and deleted them as well, possibly not even realizing there was a card in the camera that could later be forensically recovered. The previously pulled and deleted bedroom pics on TA's memory card/stick were overwritten by the new shower pics/video and since the internal memory could only hold 10-15 good quality pics(see below) it seems obvious to me that whoever had been pulling pics from the videos were likely transferring/saving them to another stick/device/laptop, etc. before deleting them from the camera.

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/SonyH9/design.shtml

"Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H9 memory, ports and battery
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H9 battery door

The Sony H9 uses Memory Stick Duo or Pro Duo cards with a slot next to the battery compartment under the body; depending on the size of your tripod this door may or may not be blocked when mounted. Cards up to 8GB have been confirmed to work with the camera.

As usual there’s no card supplied, but Sony’s fitted 31MB of internal memory to get you started. With the H9’s relatively high compression, you’ll actually squeeze about ten to 15 best-quality JPEGs into the internal memory, but you should still obviously start shopping for a separate Memory Stick from day-one. The H9 also lets you copy images from the internal memory to a Memory Stick."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-General-Discussion-5&p=12416620#post12416620
Quote Originally Posted by geevee
"Just because it is a site Spybot put into the Restricted Sites area of the browser (Immunize feature) doesn't mean any Spybot files were activated. The browser history would note there was an attempt to connect to that web address but all that would have happened was a blank page on the browser with a 404 or similar message saying the site could not be accessed. "

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-General-Discussion-5&p=12416361#post12416361
Quote Originally Posted by geevee
"BBM

The text evidence in the May 26 chats/texts that he was done with her, in all ways.

The evidence of the Spybot file that started up on his laptop at the same minute two of the nudes were being taken.

The evidence of the pic of her backside being taken at 1:44:00 (same time as the Spybot file activating) and 50 seconds later Travis is lying in bed looking like he's asleep.

The evidence that her hair is lighter in a dark room than it is in the selfies taken June 3rd in broad daylight.

Her purse on the end of his bed doesn't say 'we're having a sex and picture-taking party' to me:

14715pursearrow.jpg

I just assess the evidence, I don't make it up."

One other thing to note is from what I recall while looking up the features of the camera, is that you could set the memory to record directly to a memory stick, thus leaving one who isn't familiar with the camera, the impression that there is no memory stick and that it's just being recorded on the internal memory ... and normally just deleting/formatting the internal memory should have left no tracks, especially after the battery died with a little help from being immersed in water.

https://docs.sony.com/release//specs/DSCH9B_mksp.pdf
I think this is the specific model.

https://docs.sony.com/release//DSC-H7_H9_Handbook.pdf#I4.1.1050211

Page 22 about playing back videos is interesting as is this on Page 25:
"The camera has approximately 31 MB of internal memory. This memory is not removable.
Even when there is no “Memory Stick Duo” inserted in the camera, you can record images
using this internal memory."

https://docs.sony.com/release//DSC-...age.3.Connecting.the.camera.and.your.computer

This shows how easy "Connecting the camera and your computer" is.