Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[RickshawFan]

After rewatching Nurmi's redirect of the (I'm a hopeless Hope ) especially the very interesting part about what she says were in the pages of the journal she tore out, I have a new theory about what she told Travis on May that made him so angry, why the fight was so focused on sex, and why he repeatedly called her a *advertiser censored*.

I think it's possible what she told him was that she had gone to a GYN after returning to Mesa, and had just gotten test results back saying she had a STD, and thinking it over, she could only have contracted it during the weekend she (supposedly) spent with John Dixon in August 2007. Which meant, she regretted to say, she could have transmitted it to TA in February (or afterwards).

TA would have thought he'd have to go get tested for STD's (exposure and humiliation), and, the extra malicious bonus for her is that she'd have prevented TA from being sexually active until he did get tested.

Her "I have something to tell you; something's, actually" texts to him late night on June 1 could have included a whoops- updated results, silly DR. All clear. Sorry to have worried you.

------------

And while mostly fastforwarding through most of Nurmi's ceaseless questions about sex, several things caught my attention.

On one----- succinctly, Rickshaw, I think you may well be right that she took those photos of Travis on June 4th after she waited for him to wake up, and surprised him after he had "pleasured" himself.

((On the "May 10" call she very deliberately elicited specific responses from TA about sexual activity, and repeated things he said she wanted emphasized, including what he said about his new habit of masturbating multiple times a day.))

If she hid in the closet waiting to take those photos, that may be why in all her stories of the day it is SHE who always wakes up first.


And if she surprised him while taking photos of him, even on his own camera, he would have had a great deal more difficulty turning down her idea of him taking photos of her nude on the bed. Which is all those "sex" photos demonstrate happened. Those photos that were so promptly deleted....

( testified-- I was never very comfortable with the idea of taking nude photos. I only became somewhat OK with it after a year and a half, when I was willing to do them , but only because TA asked. And even then, only if they got deleted).

The walking in on TA while he was getting some private jollies....this may have happened more than once. She used it as a foundation of her pedo lie. Recording TA getting his jollies, was no doubt to humiliate him even more, since the Mormon church bans masturbation, IIRC. The sex photos of her covered up the fact that he was getting it on by his lonesome.

 

[RickshawFan]

After rewatching Nurmi's redirect of the (I'm a hopeless Hope ) especially the very interesting part about what she says were in the pages of the journal she tore out, I have a new theory about what she told Travis on May that made him so angry, why the fight was so focused on sex, and why he repeatedly called her a *advertiser censored*.

I think it's possible what she told him was that she had gone to a GYN after returning to Mesa, and had just gotten test results back saying she had a STD, and thinking it over, she could only have contracted it during the weekend she (supposedly) spent with John Dixon in August 2007. Which meant, she regretted to say, she could have transmitted it to TA in February (or afterwards).

TA would have thought he'd have to go get tested for STD's (exposure and humiliation), and, the extra malicious bonus for her is that she'd have prevented TA from being sexually active until he did get tested.

Her "I have something to tell you; something's, actually" texts to him late night on June 1 could have included a whoops- updated results, silly DR. All clear. Sorry to have worried you.

------------

And while mostly fastforwarding through most of Nurmi's ceaseless questions about sex, several things caught my attention.

On one----- succinctly, Rickshaw, I think you may well be right that she took those photos of Travis on June 4th after she waited for him to wake up, and surprised him after he had "pleasured" himself.

((On the "May 10" call she very deliberately elicited specific responses from TA about sexual activity, and repeated things he said she wanted emphasized, including what he said about his new habit of masturbating multiple times a day.))

If she hid in the closet waiting to take those photos, that may be why in all her stories of the day it is SHE who always wakes up first.


And if she surprised him while taking photos of him, even on his own camera, he would have had a great deal more difficulty turning down her idea of him taking photos of her nude on the bed. Which is all those "sex" photos demonstrate happened. Those photos that were so promptly deleted....

( testified-- I was never very comfortable with the idea of taking nude photos. I only became somewhat OK with it after a year and a half, when I was willing to do them , but only because TA asked. And even then, only if they got deleted).

Yes on the STD concept: if she had threatened him with a pregnancy, an over-the-counter test would have nuked the lie (and she wouldn't have had the money for a DNA test), but if an STD, we're talking a quick visit to Planned Parenthood for STD tests with sliding scale fees. So, the latter story has more verisimilitude. But, in fact, she made it all up.

And, yes, masturbation was a key word in the sex tape. It was very important for whatever had in mind, with the presumed threat for the bishop's consumption that TA was in charge of the sex and he had way more sex than just the two of them together. She wanted to make it look like she was a minor footnote in TA's compulsion to have sex.

 

[pocketaccent]

I've been re reading JM's book. Reading more carefully and slowly this time and appreciating it so much more. (Had I not known anything about the trial, this book would have been a real page turner.)
While reading the second time around, I'm reminded:

-His most important mission was to prove premeditation and to expose deceitfulness of . The gas cans were his hole-in-one. His gas can strategy is worth rereading.

-Initially the time stamped sex photos played an important part - to place in Travis' house, however as soon as she admitted being there, their value went down considerably in his case.

It seems he had never questioned whether sex took place or not, like some of us are in here.
Maybe because he did not use or need them to prove premeditation?

Sex-No sex or correct-incorrect time stamps ->unrelated to premeditation, IMO

 

[RickshawFan]

After rewatching Nurmi's redirect of the (I'm a hopeless Hope ) especially the very interesting part about what she says were in the pages of the journal she tore out, I have a new theory about what she told Travis on May that made him so angry, why the fight was so focused on sex, and why he repeatedly called her a *advertiser censored*.

I think it's possible what she told him was that she had gone to a GYN after returning to Mesa, and had just gotten test results back saying she had a STD, and thinking it over, she could only have contracted it during the weekend she (supposedly) spent with John Dixon in August 2007. Which meant, she regretted to say, she could have transmitted it to TA in February (or afterwards).

TA would have thought he'd have to go get tested for STD's (exposure and humiliation), and, the extra malicious bonus for her is that she'd have prevented TA from being sexually active until he did get tested.

Her "I have something to tell you; something's, actually" texts to him late night on June 1 could have included a whoops- updated results, silly DR. All clear. Sorry to have worried you.

------------

And while mostly fastforwarding through most of Nurmi's ceaseless questions about sex, several things caught my attention.

On one----- succinctly, Rickshaw, I think you may well be right that she took those photos of Travis on June 4th after she waited for him to wake up, and surprised him after he had "pleasured" himself.

((On the "May 10" call she very deliberately elicited specific responses from TA about sexual activity, and repeated things he said she wanted emphasized, including what he said about his new habit of masturbating multiple times a day.))

If she hid in the closet waiting to take those photos, that may be why in all her stories of the day it is SHE who always wakes up first.


And if she surprised him while taking photos of him, even on his own camera, he would have had a great deal more difficulty turning down her idea of him taking photos of her nude on the bed. Which is all those "sex" photos demonstrate happened. Those photos that were so promptly deleted....

( testified-- I was never very comfortable with the idea of taking nude photos. I only became somewhat OK with it after a year and a half, when I was willing to do them , but only because TA asked. And even then, only if they got deleted).

If she had a recent history of threatening she had an STD, no chance in hell he'd be having sex with her. I go for the self-jollying option with the photos of her 'cos she couldn't tolerate the notion that he could enjoy himself without her.

 

[Hope4More]

I've been re reading JM's book. Reading more carefully and slowly this time and appreciating it so much more. (Had I not known anything about the trial, this book would have been a real page turner.)
While reading the second time around, I'm reminded:

-His most important mission was to prove premeditation and to expose deceitfulness of . The gas cans were his hole-in-one. His gas can strategy is worth rereading.

-Initially the time stamped sex photos played an important part - to place in Travis' house, however as soon as she admitted being there, their value went down considerably in his case.

It seems he had never questioned whether sex took place or not, like some of us are in here.
Maybe because he did not use or need them to prove premeditation?

Sex-No sex or correct-incorrect time stamps ->unrelated to premeditation, IMO

JM has said that he declined to use at trial a significant amount of additional information he has about the , because ultimately it wasn't relevant.

Relevant to him was, exactly, Pocket, proving premeditation, and securing a conviction that would withstand all appeals. He succeeded in that.

What kind of additional information about did JM know? He's also said it isn't earthshattering, as in, he doesn't have info that the was stealing money from TA's PPL accounts, or anything like that.

I imagine some to most of the info he's referring to was given to the first DT investigator, the one whose findings ultimately took up over 400 pages of reports, only the smallest sliver of which was used by JM at trial.

JM did also have emails and phone records we've never seen, and computer forensics that weren't introduced at trial. What he doesn't have, IMO, is any better or much more informed understanding of what happened on June 4, if that.

I agree, Pocket. The sex and shower photos initially were vital to proving she was there on the 4th and when, and when the murder began and ended.

Whether or not they had sex on the 4th wasn't integral to either side's case; both used it as accepted fact because each could use the "fact" of sex that day to spin their respective cases.

The fact it didn't benefit either side to investigate that "fact" any further doesn't mean there isn't merit in questioning it or all the other lies about the 4th the lying liar lied about.

 

[pocketaccent]

JM has said that he declined to use at trial a significant amount of additional information he has about the , because ultimately it wasn't relevant.

Relevant to him was, exactly, Pocket, proving premeditation, and securing a conviction that would withstand all appeals. He succeeded in that.

What kind of additional information about did JM know? He's also said it isn't earthshattering, as in, he doesn't have info that the was stealing money from TA's PPL accounts, or anything like that.

I imagine some to most of the info he's referring to was given to the first DT investigator, the one whose findings ultimately took up over 400 pages of reports, only the smallest sliver of which was used by JM at trial.

JM did also have emails and phone records we've never seen, and computer forensics that weren't introduced at trial. What he doesn't have, IMO, is any better or much more informed understanding of what happened on June 4, if that.

I agree, Pocket. The sex and shower photos initially were vital to proving she was there on the 4th and when, and when the murder began and ended.

Whether or not they had sex on the 4th wasn't integral to either side's case; both used it as accepted fact because each could use the "fact" of sex that day to spin their respective cases.

The fact it didn't benefit either side to investigate that "fact" any further doesn't mean there isn't merit in questioning it or all the other lies about the 4th the lying liar lied about.

BBM, That is exactly what I wanted to say but don't have skills to put into words like you do so well
Yes!! there is plenty of merit for what we've been doing here, including my brave rejection of all of the timeline related evidence.

(Bravely looking into MM related issues currently.)

 

[Hope4More]

BBM, That is exactly what I wanted to say but don't have skills to put into words like you do so well
Yes!! there is plenty of merit for what we've been doing here, including my brave rejection of all of the timeline related evidence.

(Bravely looking into MM related issues currently.)

You are perfectly articulate, Sister Pocket, and exceptionally astute. I remain in awe of your ability to detect and dissect nuances. MM, eh? I look forward to hearing what you're working on.

In the meanwhile, I've been plugging back through the 's trial testimony on direct and cross and redirect, listening for details related to June 4th, which, I'm discovering, were sprinkled throughout.

 

[geevee]

I'm looking forward to reports from both of you on your separate endeavors. I fully agree with the points you've made about JM, I think he realized early on how easy it would be to become mired in the spiderweb of details she liked to spin and he simply didn't need any more than he had, nudie/shower pics with time stamps at least corroborated by EnCase (if never authenticated further). I still disregard those time stamps, as including them makes less sense of the day's timeline rather than helping to clarify it, imo. But I have been known to be completely wrong so I leave a bare shard of possibility open that sex did occur and/or the time stamps are correct. lol

I too hope one day he'll write a follow up book with all of the things he knew but hasn't revealed yet, may not be earth shattering but for folks like us, it'll be something of a treasure trove of info.

 

[Hope4More]

I'm looking forward to reports from both of you on your separate endeavors. I fully agree with the points you've made about JM, I think he realized early on how easy it would be to become mired in the spiderweb of details she liked to spin and he simply didn't need any more than he had, nudie/shower pics with time stamps at least corroborated by EnCase (if never authenticated further). I still disregard those time stamps, as including them makes less sense of the day's timeline rather than helping to clarify it, imo. But I have been known to be completely wrong so I leave a bare shard of possibility open that sex did occur and/or the time stamps are correct. lol

I too hope one day he'll write a follow up book with all of the things he knew but hasn't revealed yet, may not be earth shattering but for folks like us, it'll be something of a treasure trove of info.

I'd have dropped all this long ago if I believed JM would ever hand over the answers to even just our central questions, in book form or otherwise.

I trust JM is honest and plain spoken, so I take him at his word. He was done with the 's case when it was turned over to the PP2 jury. He did want to tell a story about preparing and prosecuting the case from his own perspective , and he did, but that's different than reexamining anything about the case itself. He's done.

 

[RickshawFan]

BBM, That is exactly what I wanted to say but don't have skills to put into words like you do so well
Yes!! there is plenty of merit for what we've been doing here, including my brave rejection of all of the timeline related evidence.

(Bravely looking into MM related issues currently.)

The most astounding new tidbit I've heard on the MM front. When H4M looked over the ' direct, says that she called MM on June 4 BEFORE she started looking for her phone charger (just short of the Nevada border).

 

[knt]

has been with child for 18 months now. Poor babe is afraid to come out; in utero is bad enough.

Seriously, the PV warden has got ' number. 1. She's evidently been prohibited from asking for book donations to supplement the prison's stock of westerns, which she doesn't deign to read. 2. All her outgoing mail was censored, perhaps owing to the fact she was soliciting money, which is against the rules. 3. She was disciplined for calling a guard something completely unmemorable, and her privileges were rolled back; this meant she couldn't give her mom a hug, in vivo, so to speak. 4. A healthy percentage of every dollar that goes into her account is taken out for the Alexanders; every cent she has is subject to this deduction. 5. She spends a substantial fortune on hemarrhoid treatments. 6. Any attempt makes to get public attention is met with smack downs. Mostly, she's outta sight, outta mind. Ooh, forgot... 7. By now, she may have earned enough brownie points to wear orange tops and bottoms instead of a jumpsuit.

Much enjoyed. Thank you!

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

The most astounding new tidbit I've heard on the MM front. When H4M looked over the ' direct, says that she called MM on June 4 BEFORE she started looking for her phone charger (just short of the Nevada border).

I need to look back at her last journal. IIRC MM met up with her in Yreka when she got back after killing Travis on the 6th. He was with her before and after the murder. He told her not to move to Mesa and she stopped speaking to him for several months for it.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

February 26, is the second time they had sex according to Jodi. She'd been in Las Vegas fort three days and Travis was impatient in her getting back to Mesa. She hurried home, cleaned herself up grabbed the tootsie pops and went to Travis's. She said they went all the way again. I'm not sure when the rose petal and candle seduction.sex in the bathtub was, but it is mentioned as another time they had sex on the phone call.

 

[Val1]

February 26, is the second time they had sex according to Jodi. She'd been in Las Vegas fort three days and Travis was impatient in her getting back to Mesa. She hurried home, cleaned herself up grabbed the tootsie pops and went to Travis's. She said they went all the way again. I'm not sure when the rose petal and candle seduction.sex in the bathtub was, but it is mentioned as another time they had sex on the phone call.

In what I think was Vol.5(if my notes are correct from BK's site) Dated Mar.30/08, she had also noted that the night before she had got a massage and a facial then, "This morning TA & I got into a little spat."

I'm thinking that may well have been because he caught her taking pics of him while he rested after their "activities". That would have been just before she went and drove the BMW to Uhaul and proceeded to blow up the transmission and after she had dyed her hair "brown".

 

[pocketaccent]

-From the beginning, MM had been her alibi, her ally, her confidante, and oh, he will never betray her. What could he have ever done to deserve that not so honorable title - murderer's ally. During the trial he also became her go to witness for every abuse she suffered and T's pedophilia confessions. All according to her. I see problems with that.

I think from the very beginning, MM was her hostage, not her ally. She had something on him from the get-go. He had done something that she was holding him hostage for.

So he had to become Bob White at her threatening request - I will tell _________ if you don't comply.
I now believe MM is Bob White and the magazine message was for MM.

"You xxxed up. What you told my attorney next day contradicts what I’ve been saying for over a year. Get down here asap and see me before you talk with them again and before you testify so we can fix this."

Tone of this message is very rude and threatening. Who is going to tolerate a message like this unless someone is under duress, like MM would have been. MM probably told her attorney he didn't know anything about the bruises and as a result he was getting bullied by for messing up her story.

Later on,
-' position- Asks MM to lie for her or else..

-MM's position- I'm not going to lie for . If I'm called as a witness, I will tell everything truthfully. And the truth will hurt her more than me. I'm tired of being intimidated.

-JM's position: JM didn't want to subpoena because MM could lie about bruises and pedo claim. As simple as that. Even if he suspected MM = Bob White, he may not have had any effective weapon to disprove it. (JM's e-book Page 139 - "I didn't know who the magazines were intended for or how they were going to be used)

-' outlook changed after Jan 2013.
[video=youtube;V-dIe_QIWZI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-dIe_QIWZI[/video]
Day 29
Watch 3:13:00 - 3:16:35

(Not verbatim)
JM: MM is a person who will not betray you correct? .. and he is an ally of yours right?..MM will lie for you, won't he?
: No, he wouldn't.
JM: Are you aware of the statements he made in Jan 2013 involving that very fact. Yes or no.
Nurmi: Objection
Judge: Approach
JM: MM is an individual who is your ally right?
: Was.

It looks like Nurmi decided not to call MM after he made certain statements either to him or JM in Jan 2013. Notice ' WAS. Ha! He will not lie for her if he testifies. MM no longer would be her ally after his Jan 2013 statement.
During the rest of the trial however, she continuously used his name as her supposed witness. No harm done. She knew he wasn't going to testify.

Nothing earth-shattering sisters, but perhaps this is why we have not and will not hear a peep from MM, forever.

 

[RickshawFan]

-From the beginning, MM had been her alibi, her ally, her confidante, and oh, he will never betray her. What could he have ever done to deserve that not so honorable title - murderer's ally. During the trial he also became her go to witness for every abuse she suffered and T's pedophilia confessions. All according to her. I see problems with that.

I think from the very beginning, MM was her hostage, not her ally. She had something on him from the get-go. He had done something that she was holding him hostage for.

So he had to become Bob White at her threatening request - I will tell _________ if you don't comply.
I now believe MM is Bob White and the magazine message was for MM.

"You xxxed up. What you told my attorney next day contradicts what I’ve been saying for over a year. Get down here asap and see me before you talk with them again and before you testify so we can fix this."

Tone of this message is very rude and threatening. Who is going to tolerate a message like this unless someone is under duress, like MM would have been. MM probably told her attorney he didn't know anything about the bruises and as a result he was getting bullied by for messing up her story.

Later on,
-' position- Asks MM to lie for her or else..

-MM's position- I'm not going to lie for . If I'm called as a witness, I will tell everything truthfully. And the truth will hurt her more than me. I'm tired of being intimidated.

-JM's position: JM didn't want to subpoena because MM could lie about bruises and pedo claim. As simple as that. Even if he suspected MM = Bob White, he may not have had any effective weapon to disprove it. (JM's e-book Page 139 - "I didn't know who the magazines were intended for or how they were going to be used)

-' outlook changed after Jan 2013.
[video=youtube;V-dIe_QIWZI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-dIe_QIWZI[/video]
Day 29
Watch 3:13:00 - 3:16:35

(Not verbatim)
JM: MM is a person who will not betray you correct? .. and he is an ally of yours right?..MM will lie for you, won't he?
: No, he wouldn't.
JM: Are you aware of the statements he made in Jan 2013 involving that very fact. Yes or no.
Nurmi: Objection
Judge: Approach
JM: MM is an individual who is your ally right?
: Was.

It looks like Nurmi decided not to call MM after he made certain statements either to him or JM in Jan 2013. Notice ' WAS. Ha! He will not lie for her if he testifies. MM no longer would be her ally after his Jan 2013 statement.
During the rest of the trial however, she continuously used his name as her supposed witness. No harm done. She knew he wasn't going to testify.

Nothing earth-shattering sisters, but perhaps this is why we have not and will not hear a peep from MM, forever.

Pocket, what are you doing to me! Now I'll have to watch that whole thing!

 

[FinallyRegistered]

MM knows all the secrets and knows her better than anyone. His book is one I'd like to read and he really should cash in on it. He has nothing to lose now that she's locked in a box forever.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I've been re reading JM's book. Reading more carefully and slowly this time and appreciating it so much more. (Had I not known anything about the trial, this book would have been a real page turner.)
While reading the second time around, I'm reminded:

-His most important mission was to prove premeditation and to expose deceitfulness of . The gas cans were his hole-in-one. His gas can strategy is worth rereading.

-Initially the time stamped sex photos played an important part - to place in Travis' house, however as soon as she admitted being there, their value went down considerably in his case.

It seems he had never questioned whether sex took place or not, like some of us are in here.
Maybe because he did not use or need them to prove premeditation?

Sex-No sex or correct-incorrect time stamps ->unrelated to premeditation, IMO

The strength of the sex photographs alone made Juan lean towards charging her with first degree murder. Wisely, he hesitated until the forensic evidence came back positive but he stressed the importance in his book.

Juan Martinez believes they had sex that afternoon because of the evidence and other factors including his careful analysis of the interviews with Detective Flores and his study of the case. The value of the evidence didn't go down. The sexual nature of the photographs was useful to the prosecution in other ways. The irony being that Arias wished to attempt to shame Travis after slaughtering him re their sexual interactions but the prosecution used the sex to corner a vicious murderer. Juan Martinez details how he exposed her enjoyment of the sex despite Nurmi's attempts to portray the opposite. One of the brilliant moments in the first trial was when Juan - within minutes of cross examining Arias - gets her to smugly smirk about how the sex wasn't stressful. Nurmi had just spent days and days boring the jury with his 'poor sexual victim' strategy only to be smacked in the face. Within around three minutes of Juan stepping into the arena. Nurmi's face is a picture:

[video=youtube;Muqjj4B_9Kg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muqjj4B_9Kg[/video]

Outside a few people on this forum, the sexual nature of the photographs seems obvious to most people I have seen discussing the trial. Two juries and her lawyers dd not question the sexual nature of the photographs. Nor did Arias or any family members of Travis Alexander. The evidence is solid and doubts seem to stem from Arias' ludicrous attempts to lie her way out of being caught on camera during the interview with Detective Flores. She offered laughable memory card swap suggestions which she herself even recognised as being a stretch.

Juan Martinez' book, 'Conviction: The Untold Story of Putting Jodi Arias Behind Bars' contained very little that was new to me. I found his thought process interesting and his laser-like focus on evidence to be well worth reading. Mr Martinez details how the intimacy of sex was particularly shocking given the brutal slaughter afterwards. He used the sex pictures to effectively make this point to the jury. Juan explains how his logical conclusion suggested that a video was made that day of the sex due to a segment of the interview with Detective Flores. Juan states that Travis was aroused in one of the pictures. Juan Martinez presented overwhelming evidence of sexual interaction on June 4. No question from the prosecution that those were sexual photographs. I have many questions about what happened before and after the sex photographs. The sex part is the easiest thing to explain about what happened on that terrible day.

 

[Niner]

Thank you all for this discussion! Love it!

Waiting (anxiously) on pocket's research on MM!! And Hope4More love your research!

:seeya:

 

[geevee]

MM knows all the secrets and knows her better than anyone. His book is one I'd like to read and he really should cash in on it. He has nothing to lose now that she's locked in a box forever.

He has to wait until after all the appeals run out for certainty that he'll forever be beyond her reach. After what she did to Travis I don't blame his reluctance.