Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

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I do believe Deana moved to California in March or April.
I forgot about that. She moved to Riverside, CA, her hometown I believe.

BTW Riverside is about one hour away from Pasadena. Located in the same direction to Mesa. She could have had easily stopped by on the way to Mesa. Just a short detour away from 10 Freeway.
 
There was no compelling reason why so much of the trial was sealed.

What occasioned so much secrecy AFTER the first trial and on through until the end of PP2 was a judge overseeing her first DP trial, a trial that garnered a huge amount of publicity in it's first phase.

JSS was cautious but pretty confident through round one, but far less so after sentencing ended in a mistrial, and Nurmi began pounding her in earnest about the being deprived of due process and a "full mitigation" case because of the publicity.

JSS blinked, then kept on blinking, up to and including violating the US and AZ constitutions by sealing her courtroom so the could testify in secret.

I want to see all the sealed info too, but I doubt it will turn very much, if anything, we know on its head.

JM said in his post-book interviews that there really isn't anything astonishing or amazing or even particularly significant about the or the case that he knows that we don't.

He has said he chose not to try to introduce some derogatory info he knew about her at trial because he didn't want to open any doors to a mistrial or to an overturned conviction. He said specifically that the info he knew had nothing to do with anything related to financial scams or money or crimes of any sort committed by the .

The 's attorneys simply don't have much to work with. I'm convinced that they are going to base their chief arguments squarely on the grounds Nurmi hammered on from day one until the end- excessive publicity deprived her of due process, including the testimony of witnesses who were too intimidated to appear on her behalf.

I agree, JSS caused much of this problem with so much sealing but at this point, I really don't get why the appeal attny wants even more secrecy, given what JM says, most of what's sealed isn't that big of a deal, so why is it to them?

If (let your mind wander here), in the extremely small outside chance that her conviction was overturned on the basis of excessive publicity denying her a fair trial, what would be the remedy? Another trial would only incur more publicity, start the circus up all over again, but she's proven herself to be a danger to the community (knife, gun used in murder, another gun, more knives found in planned escape vehicle), what do you think would happen? A totally secret trial? Knock it down to 2nd degree and time served? What's your legal-beagle best guess?
 
I think the hated Lisa, and in fall 2007, entertained thoughts of killing her.

As much as she hated Lisa, I believe she loathed and resented Deanna far more.

I agree that Arias would most likely have entertained thoughts of killing Lisa then. I would add that her rage against Travis would have made him a prime target for her death wishes that early.

Lisa's trial testimony riveted Arias. She was fully attentive throughout every word. Due to what couldn't be said in court the depth of her hatred for Lisa was not able to be covered. Or Travis' love for Lisa. Only by going to the journals, texts and other events does a clearer picture emerge. The trial gave the impression that Mimi was the prime focus for Arias' jealousy. No doubt she was furious that (yet again) Travis gave 'status' to pretty much anyone but her. Regarding Deanna, Travis absolutely did love her but wasn't in love with her, in my opinion. The depth of his love and genuine concern for Deanna was guaranteed for life. This kind of love is something Arias could never begin to understand but could be deeply resentful of.

If don't know how Deanna and Lisa sleep at night knowing that maniac is constantly pushing to get released. She gives me nightmares.
 
PocketAccent "A few weeks ago when I was focusing on the pre-murder pedo letter, I re-watched interrogation videos to look for any signs of it during the interrogation."

I'd recommend anyone new to this case to watch these videos. They are fascinating, particularly the exchanges with Detective Flores. It's clear from these tapes that Arias was absolutely convinced she had created the perfect alibi. She was crazily confident that she had also excluded herself on the basis of having no motive. Her arrogance takes some serious dents as she begins to understand that the perfect murder and alibi has already been shattered by Det Flores and the evidence. The tapes demonstrate her calculations and miscalculations regarding finding a new story.
 
I agree, JSS caused much of this problem with so much sealing but at this point, I really don't get why the appeal attny wants even more secrecy, given what JM says, most of what's sealed isn't that big of a deal, so why is it to them?

If (let your mind wander here), in the extremely small outside chance that her conviction was overturned on the basis of excessive publicity denying her a fair trial, what would be the remedy? Another trial would only incur more publicity, start the circus up all over again, but she's proven herself to be a danger to the community (knife, gun used in murder, another gun, more knives found in planned escape vehicle), what do you think would happen? A totally secret trial? Knock it down to 2nd degree and time served? What's your legal-beagle best guess?

I tried, really, but my mind can't wander far enough to escape the pull of reality's gravity.

I think there is only an infinitismally small chance her conviction will be overturned at all, and absolutely zero chance it will be overturned on the basis she was denied due process (didn't receive a fair trial) because of excessive publicity.

The two bottom lines on publicity:

In terms of a direct appeal, it wouldn't matter even if the publicity had been so intense that 99% of people on planet Earth stopped what they were doing every day to watch the trial, and then tweeted, posted, and blogged and posted about it.

The only relevant question is whether or not the sitting jury and their deliberations were affected by the publicity. And, the burden of proof to factually document such a tainting of the jury belongs to the 's attorneys. They can't.

The second point relates to what IMO is the reason her attorneys are babbling about the "safety" of unnamed "members of the public" should opening briefs be filed unsealed.

Their claims about ongoing intense public interest and endangerment of unidentified members of the public is theater, meant to bolster the claim made in their appeal that mitigation witnesses were so intimidated by death threats and other SM pressure that they refused to testify at all, and perhaps, that the effectiveness of those willing to testify was circumscribed by the "fact" they were only willing to testify via affadavits and after being given pseudonyms.

The denial of full mitigation in a DP case is demonstrably the surest ticket to a successful DP appeal.

Sadly for the 's chances, she wasn't denied squat during either of her sentencing phases, much less her right to "fully actualize her mitigation," to use that Nurmi phrase he repeated ad nauseum.

JSS's epic ruling during PP2 laid out her reasoning, in great detail, point by point by point (including on the matter of mitigation witnesses)for denying Nurmi's bazillionth motion for mistrial. She didn't abuse her discretion, and those annonymous witnesses DID testify.

But, OK, if reality is turned inside out and her conviction is completely overturned and her case remanded back to Superior Court...

No, she would not be allowed a secret trial, and no, I don't believe there's a chance in hell, even in an Alice in Wonderland scenario, that the State would agree to reduce the charges to second degree murder.

I do remember AZLawyer pondering the "what if" of a sentencing phase retrial (conviction intact, "just " a sentencing redo).

She didn't know how that could play out, iirc, because the State has already used up their quota of times the DP can be on the table as a sentencing option.
 
I take it the brief will arrive in your inbox early on the 6th? :D

LOL. Since it won't be filed under seal (woot!!), her attys have until midnight on the 6th to file it electronically.

A caveat- the COA IS allowing her attys to seal/redact not just names but whole sections of the brief for reasons related to "privacy" or "confidentiality."

I imagine they will have to justify their redactions to the Court, but maybe not.

No matter what, we're going to see at least a majority of that opening brief NEXT WEEK!

What a long, strange trip it's beeeen...
 
I tried, really, but my mind can't wander far enough to escape the pull of reality's gravity.

I think there is only an infinitismally small chance her conviction will be overturned at all, and absolutely zero chance it will be overturned on the basis she was denied due process (didn't receive a fair trial) because of excessive publicity.

The two bottom lines on publicity:

In terms of a direct appeal, it wouldn't matter even if the publicity had been so intense that 99% of people on planet Earth stopped what they were doing every day to watch the trial, and then tweeted, posted, and blogged and posted about it.

The only relevant question is whether or not the sitting jury and their deliberations were affected by the publicity. And, the burden of proof to factually document such a tainting of the jury belongs to the 's attorneys. They can't.

The second point relates to what IMO is the reason her attorneys are babbling about the "safety" of unnamed "members of the public" should opening briefs be filed unsealed.

Their claims about ongoing intense public interest and endangerment of unidentified members of the public is theater, meant to bolster the claim made in their appeal that mitigation witnesses were so intimidated by death threats and other SM pressure that they refused to testify at all, and perhaps, that the effectiveness of those willing to testify was circumscribed by the "fact" they were only willing to testify via affadavits and after being given pseudonyms.

The denial of full mitigation in a DP case is demonstrably the surest ticket to a successful DP appeal.

Sadly for the 's chances, she wasn't denied squat during either of her sentencing phases, much less her right to "fully actualize her mitigation," to use that Nurmi phrase he repeated ad nauseum.

JSS's epic ruling during PP2 laid out her reasoning, in great detail, point by point by point (including on the matter of mitigation witnesses)for denying Nurmi's bazillionth motion for mistrial. She didn't abuse her discretion, and those annonymous witnesses DID testify.

But, OK, if reality is turned inside out and her conviction is completely overturned and her case remanded back to Superior Court...

No, she would not be allowed a secret trial, and no, I don't believe there's a chance in hell, even in an Alice in Wonderland scenario, that the State would agree to reduce the charges to second degree murder.

I do remember AZLawyer pondering the "what if" of a sentencing phase retrial (conviction intact, "just " a sentencing redo).

She didn't know how that could play out, iirc, because the State has already used up their quota of times the DP can be on the table as a sentencing option.

I did love JSS' response to Nurmi's mistrial motion and wished we had seen more of that type of control during both trials, but figured JSS had bent over backwards enough for the defense to guarantee the COA would never find fault in any of her rulings. But just curious, in the dreamworld that is Arias', what would the most likely remedy be if not only her sentence were overturned but the conviction as well (based on excessive publicity), since there would be no way to avoid that in a re-retrial.

I'm really so excited the COA booted their stab at more secrecy!
 
Pocket:

Real love is when one's husband listens carefully and responds thoughtfully about a subject he was never interested in, but who has accommodated his wife's interest, for years, by listening to endless analysis of the most minute details about the thing, until finally unable to hear one more word about it, stops even with the eyeball rolling and simply pleads-PLEASE...NO MORE. PLEASE.

And that was a over a year ago my poor husband made those pleas, and yet, there he sat tonight for over an hour while I ran the pre-murder or pre-arrest or from jail were those letters forged thing past him.

These years on, he is well versed in all things ; he came to the conversation with knowledge and context aplenty. Not very far into the conversation he reached a conclusion, and nothing I said afterwards changed that overall conclusion: he believes, absolutely, that the letters were forged BEFORE she murdered Travis.

His conclusion and certainty first surprised me, and then I felt a big 'ole LOL for awhile at having to convince my own DH, who clearly needed to hear just one more piece he didn't know about, or one more fact he hadn't considered or put into context. ;)

Right now, a short while after that conversation, all I can feel or think is -OH MY GOD. IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT SHE REALLY IS WAY MORE EVIL THAN LITERALLY I COULD EVER HAVE IMAGINED.

This post really touched me, Hope4More. It is abundantly clear that this case has gripped you. Many others have been (and still are) fascinated by what happened. Despite reaching maximum Arias saturation point a while ago your husband listened and made an assessment. As much as you appreciate his input it must be frustrating to not be able to discuss this as much as you'd like. Websleuths provides that :)

There have been areas we have clashed on. Fewer than it might have appeared sometimes. Yet I am struck by the sheer volume that you write and how much work put in. Look at the books available on Amazon. Apart from those from well knows players most are poor. Have you considered doing something like that? There appears to be a gap that is not being filled on this subject. People on this forum have outstanding knowledge of the details. That kind of detail is lacking in books out there. Buy your husband a treat from the profits!
 
Ugh. Also in the Kieffer article you linked- Karen Clark is going after JM yet again.

In January of this year, the AZ Supreme Court stayed the Bar's appeal of JM's "win" on the charges Clark originally brought against JM relating to leaking juror name, JW, etc.

The Court ordered the Bar committee to explain it's process and legal reasoning for dismissing the charges against JM; the stay is until place until the Bar committee provides that info.

The Bar committee is due to meet & discuss JM this Friday. Tomorrow. So, the attorney representing the seems to have timed her filing new allegations so they too will be on the table when the Bar committee meets.

What a piece of work.
 
This post really touched me, Hope4More. It is abundantly clear that this case has gripped you. Many others have been (and still are) fascinated by what happened. Despite reaching maximum Arias saturation point a while ago your husband listened and made an assessment. As much as you appreciate his input it must be frustrating to not be able to discuss this as much as you'd like. Websleuths provides that :)

There have been areas we have clashed on. Fewer than it might have appeared sometimes. Yet I am struck by the sheer volume that you write and how much work put in. Look at the books available on Amazon. Apart from those from well knows players most are poor. Have you considered doing something like that? There appears to be a gap that is not being filled on this subject. People on this forum have outstanding knowledge of the details. That kind of detail is lacking in books out there. Buy your husband a treat from the profits!

I couldn't agree with you more there TW, I would adore a book by Hope on this case.
 
This post really touched me, Hope4More. It is abundantly clear that this case has gripped you. Many others have been (and still are) fascinated by what happened. Despite reaching maximum Arias saturation point a while ago your husband listened and made an assessment. As much as you appreciate his input it must be frustrating to not be able to discuss this as much as you'd like. Websleuths provides that :)

There have been areas we have clashed on. Fewer than it might have appeared sometimes. Yet I am struck by the sheer volume that you write and how much work put in. Look at the books available on Amazon. Apart from those from well knows players most are poor. Have you considered doing something like that? There appears to be a gap that is not being filled on this subject. People on this forum have outstanding knowledge of the details. That kind of detail is lacking in books out there. Buy your husband a treat from the profits!

TA- and I am touched and beyond that by every last thing you just wrote.
I'm going to exercise unusual restraint and not spit out what are a number of very personal reasons for my interest in this case that for me has always been about Travis, not the .

My interest in discusion of the factual & subjective aspects of the case has actually been quenched 99% of the time by the wonderful & thoughtful & insightful debates and conversations we've had here for all these years. I've typically called on DH to listen and weigh in only when I've doubted the validity of my own analysis of this or that. Which, true enough, for my DH has been an insufferably huge number of occasions, lol.

There are also personal reasons entirely unrelated to anything about the case that have kept me engaged, on and off, over the past year or so, but for the most part, my interest has been almost entirely focused on her appeals, because I've never dissected the appellate process in any case I've ever followed. It's been and continues to be a great learning experience about the legal process, one of my chief intellectual interests.

As for writing a book. I'm honored that you think I could do that. I've joked to my DH -but it's also accurate- that I have put as much time & effort over the years on this as I would have in writing a PhD dissertation. And I agree that while other books have been written about the , Travis, and/or the trial, none have been as comprehensive as the collective product of our discussions & conclusions here on WS.

Even if I were capable of writing a book and seeing that project through to completion (not sure I could), and even if I was willing to capitalize on the work here we have ALL done (not sure I'm ok with that), I guess I have my doubts about whether or not there really would be an audience for such a book.

Based in part by the huge drop-off in trialwatchers between trial one & PP2, I'm thinking that many or even most of the folks who first tuned in later tuned out when the live salacious spectacle was turned off. Somehow I doubt they would tune back in for yet one more book, especially one as nerdy as the only kind of book I can imagine myself writing.

I think JM wrote the book hard core trial watchers wanted to read. Though.....I know I wished he had (though I knew he wouldn't) included a deep dive into her manipulations & torment of Travis.

And....what remains as true now as it was when we first began our own deep-dive is that we simply don't have access to all the evidence. I well remember how much my certainties and perspectives kept changing when just one batch of evidence- the texts- were released, one month at a time.

Imagine, for example, what is contained in the full email record of TA- exchanges (have seen but a few), much less of the full record of emails between TAs and friends that contain discussions about the (drooling ;)).

And, BTW, about our disagreeing on whatever points along the way. I'm pretty certain that I've never held a consistent view/opinion on any significant aspect of any part of this case, lol. If you look hard & long enough, you'll no doubt find posts of mine in which I agree with you on every point. :D
,
 
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PocketAccent "A few weeks ago when I was focusing on the pre-murder pedo letter, I re-watched interrogation videos to look for any signs of it during the interrogation."

I'd recommend anyone new to this case to watch these videos. They are fascinating, particularly the exchanges with Detective Flores. It's clear from these tapes that Arias was absolutely convinced she had created the perfect alibi. She was crazily confident that she had also excluded herself on the basis of having no motive. Her arrogance takes some serious dents as she begins to understand that the perfect murder and alibi has already been shattered by Det Flores and the evidence. The tapes demonstrate her calculations and miscalculations regarding finding a new story.

Yep and yes. Perhaps the single best strategic decision Flores made was to lie to the that the camera had been destroyed.

What a relief that must have been to the ! It freed her up to manufacture journal entries that she believed adequately negated each point of suspicion raised by Flores in their pre-arrest phone "conversations," and yep, the chief point being that she had absolutely no reason to kill her friend Travis.

She delivered the coup de grace to her own self and chances of reduced charges or even an acquittal by being so arrogant and so fundamentally incapable of EVER accepting responsibility for any of her actions (finding flaws in her goddess self) that she defaulted when confronted with irrefutable evidence against her to that ridiculous & half-baked lie which she was sure would result in her escaping with her "reputation" and ability to hunt prey again intact.
 
I have a copy of the COA's ruling. :) :)

First ORDER: denied the motion to seal. "..the current request is legally insufficient to overcome the strong presumption in favor of public access."

Second ORDER: "..appellant may file a motion under seal on or before June 5, 2018, detailing those portions of the brief that appellant believes should be sealed "to avoid the infliction of substantial and irreparable private or public harm," or because recognition of the interests of privacy or confidentiality outweigh the general policy of open access."

Translation: The COA is calling 's attorneys' bluff. They're going to have to either make a case for "substantial and irreparable harm" that I doubt very much can be made to the Court's satisfaction, or run with an argument that maintaining the privacy of anonymous witnesses outweighs the public's right to know who testified at a public trial to which we are constitutionally guaranteed an invitation.


Redactions of witness names, perhaps, but not entire sections relating to their testimony or alleged threats against them is still most likely, IMO.
 
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