Sentencing and beyond- Jodi Arias General Discussion #3

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I think the decision to kill him was final by May 28th when her grandfather's gun went missing, so such a conversation would have had to happen before June 4th, and would have to be a phone call or appear in the texts. The fight on May 26th would put it earlier than that, so I'm not sure if it fits in.

There may have been some kind of ultimatum with the sex tape used to get him back in line, which may have led to the fight on the 26th and her decision to kill him on the 28th. (I'm assuming the sex tape is the source of the fight here).

Whether the sex tape was pieced together or a continuous recording is less important than whether or not she made him aware of it and what use she intended it for. They had the conversations at one time or another and I believe it was all recorded without his permission, so she had to have a reason.

Jodi wanted Travis to come up to hear her sing at a car race the weekend of May 23, and he didn't. He had a ufc party at his house and met a sweet eighteen year old. Can you imagine her seeing that on Myspace or Facebook? Travis also told Jodi that she was stressing him out by not telling him what she had planned if he came up there. Juan asked Jodi if she went looking for a tree in the forest, and she said yes. She was going to make the tied to tree fantasy come true. Where was Jodi planning on him staying at or with is an interesting thought.


The talk of him going up there was just talk to keep her calm, and not have to deal with her.
 
The talk of him going up there was just talk to keep her calm, and not have to deal with her.

This is why I pointed out in earlier posts that although she had shown abusive tendencies during the course of their relationship, by the end Travis was not showing the typical helplessness that is the hallmark of being on the receiving end of it, yet he was still actively engaging with her on some level.

Since he wasn't buying into her manipulation in the traditional sense, he had to have his own reasons for continuing the relationship at whatever level it continued.

Since by the end he obviously wasn't totally broken down by her abuse, his reasons for continuing must have been wholly his own, and my speculation was as follows:

1. He didn't recognize the real danger she posed
2. He did not attribute all of her aberrant behavior to herself alone, but felt she was reacting to something innately about him, and he wanted to find out what that was, I tried to summarize this as 'curiosity' or 'fascination' with the dynamic, which others did not find apparent, seeing only his exasperation, but if there was only exasperation and not this element, then there would have been no reason for him to not let the relationship go completely, which he didn't.
3. He still felt the need to help her warped mind.
 
This is why I pointed out in earlier posts that although she had shown abusive tendencies during the course of their relationship, by the end Travis was not showing the typical helplessness that is the hallmark of being on the receiving end of it, yet he was still actively engaging with her on some level.

Since he wasn't buying into her manipulation in the traditional sense, he had to have his own reasons for continuing the relationship at whatever level it continued.

Since by the end he obviously wasn't totally broken down by her abuse, his reasons for continuing must have been wholly his own, and my speculation was as follows:

1. He didn't recognize the real danger she posed
2. He did not attribute all of her aberrant behavior to herself alone, but felt she was reacting to something innately about him, and he wanted to find out what that was, I tried to summarize this as 'curiosity' or 'fascination' with the dynamic, which others did not find apparent, seeing only his exasperation, but if there was only exasperation and not this element, then there would have been no reason for him to not let the relationship go completely, which he didn't.
3. He still felt the need to help her warped mind.



I think one key to understanding his response to her and why he never cut her off altogether is this: remember what he wrote about being beaten, hit on the back, hard , by I believe it was his father?

And what he writes is that he learned to position his body so the blows hurt the least, and as the blows fell, he says what he would keep in his mind is how loved he was. That denial and that linking of abuse with love helped him survive, but IMO it was a defense he didn't live long enough to understand or work through.

Remember as well what he told a friend in early April, as she was on her way out of town-- that she was a great gal, and a better person then was. I've thought about what he meant and if he really felt that way.

I think he did mean it, and I think he believed her a better person because she always forgave HIM. He had been increasingly angry with her from December 07 on, and there were at least several times in late March and very early April where he was angry enough at her to become concerned about how he felt.

He tried to warn her....I'm worn out by all this, bitter feelings are brewing, I've always had to give you incentive to tell the truth, soon it won't be incentives but promises of revenge.

Several points about that. Mind matters wrote an excellent post explaining how the severe abuse he experienced as a child might make him extremely afraid of his own anger. That he would bury that anger as far down as he could shove it, that it was easier for him to cope by rewriting reality to deny the source of his anger than to allow himself to feel the anger. Being beaten is actually love.

I'm willing to bet that his interest in the Law of Attraction and the Secret nonsense, personal development in the flavors he chose it, even to some degree PPL, was based on a fundamental need to believe that positive thinking could conquer anything, any problem. Wake up, write in your journal you are going to have a great day, and you WILL have a great day.

An aside.....the killer seems to have believed that as well, in her own way for her own reasons. The difference is, of course that Travis also knew he had to WORK for those positive things to happen.

From all that I've read - journals, texts, emails, etc. I'm very sure that the killer knew early on that anger would be an effective way of controlling Travis.

The man clearly could be irritated by others, but he did NOT get angry. Not one of his friends could remember a time when he even raised his voice to any of them. He just didn't go there. His MO seemed to be to express that he was hurt instead. An ouch, not a how dare you.


He was different with her because when she felt he wasn't paying enough attention to her or when she knew he was flirting with someone else, etc. etc. so many etcs.,she would use any and all means to provoke him to anger. She would not relent until he did become angry.

Once he was angry he was very off balance, and oh so easy to control because he felt out of control. It was scary to him, made him feel weak and vulnerable and disgusted with himself afterwards.

And afterwards he would focus only on his own loss of control, not what she had done to provoke him. It was never her fault. He would apologize to HER. And she would reply, sweetly, oh honey, thank you for your apology. It meant so much to me. I know that you're just feeling stressed by the job (etc). What can I do to make it better for you?

Beatings are love.
 
Remember as well what he told a friend in early April, as she was on her way out of town-- that she was a great gal, and a better person then was. I've thought about what he meant and if he really felt that way.

I think he did mean it, and I think he believed her a better person because she always forgave HIM. He had been increasingly angry with her from December 07 on, and there were at least several times in late March and very early April where he was angry enough at her to become concerned about how he felt.

He tried to warn her....I'm worn out by all this, bitter feelings are brewing, I've always had to give you incentive to tell the truth, soon it won't be incentives but promises of revenge.

He couldn't have believed it fully, because he found her impossible to deal with and had written her off as marriage material or even for continuing in a normal, serious relationship with her. I think the reason he said it was because he knew how important image was to her and he wasn't interested in damaging her reputation for anything that had happened in the relationship. This goes back to my theory that he felt the cause of some of her behavior originated in him and wasn't all due to her mental problems.

He may have wanted to, and tried, to believe she was the better person, but I think he was getting increasingly tired of the mental gymnastics which that required.

She was more forgiving because all she ever had to forgive him for was calling her out on her bulls**t, whereas he had to find forgiveness for her blatant intrusions and interference in his personal life.

I think he tried everything he could to give her the benefit of the doubt, always looking to blame himself first, but in the end it showed no results and brought no change and he finally had to admit that she wouldn't be happy until she destroyed him.

He never got the understanding and insight that he thought his efforts would yield.
 
He couldn't have believed it fully, because he found her impossible to deal with and had written her off as marriage material or even for continuing in a normal, serious relationship with her. I think the reason he said it was because he knew how important image was to her and he wasn't interested in damaging her reputation for anything that had happened in the relationship. This goes back to my theory that he felt the cause of some of her behavior originated in him and wasn't all due to her mental problems.

He may have wanted to, and tried, to believe she was the better person, but I think he was getting increasingly tired of the mental gymnastics which that required.

She was more forgiving because all she ever had to forgive him for was calling her out on her bulls**t, whereas he had to find forgiveness for her blatant intrusions and interference in his personal life.

I think he tried everything he could to give her the benefit of the doubt, always looking to blame himself first, but in the end it showed no results and brought no change and he finally had to admit that she wouldn't be happy until she destroyed him.

He never got the understanding and insight that he thought his efforts would yield.


Responding just to- he said that not wanting to hurt her reputation. That is the least likely interpretation, IMO, because for much of April he is telling multiple people about some of the very crazy things he thinks she might have done...reality testing. (Universal response: she did those things, she's sick and a stalker).
 
Responding just to- he said that not wanting to hurt her reputation. That is the least likely interpretation, IMO, because for much of April he is telling multiple people about some of the very crazy things he thinks she might have done...reality testing. (Universal response: she did those things, she's sick and a stalker).

I think it still applies; he was coming around but needed outside confirmation to change his views.

IOW he was telling people about her not because he didn't want to protect her reputation, but because he needed reinforcement for his dawning realization that he had done nothing to cause her behavior.
 
He couldn't have believed it fully, because he found her impossible to deal with and had written her off as marriage material or even for continuing in a normal, serious relationship with her. I think the reason he said it was because he knew how important image was to her and he wasn't interested in damaging her reputation for anything that had happened in the relationship. This goes back to my theory that he felt the cause of some of her behavior originated in him and wasn't all due to her mental problems.

He may have wanted to, and tried, to believe she was the better person, but I think he was getting increasingly tired of the mental gymnastics which that required.

She was more forgiving because all she ever had to forgive him for was calling her out on her bulls**t, whereas he had to find forgiveness for her blatant intrusions and interference in his personal life.

I think he tried everything he could to give her the benefit of the doubt, always looking to blame himself first, but in the end it showed no results and brought no change and he finally had to admit that she wouldn't be happy until she destroyed him.

He never got the understanding and insight that he thought his efforts would yield.


He writes in his journal soon after she leaves that he's glad she's gone, basically, because he no longer has to deal with all her negativity, and that for the first time in a long time he can actually be productive. As much as anything else, I think she really did just wear him out with her constant intrusions every day she lived in Mesa.

Yep, as to finally admitting she was out to destroy him. He said exactly that to her on May 26.

The texts we have so far end with April. May texts may tell a whole different story. What I see happening in April, besides a concerted effort on her part to create an incriminating paper trail, is that she has switched to religion as a hook to keep him engaged with her.

She texts him about her going to church, asks his advice on Mormon writings, thanks him for his knowledge of the Gospel. The killer playing good girl Mormon and calling upon to support her spiritually. How was he going to say no to that?
 
I think it still applies; he was coming around but needed outside confirmation to change his views.

IOW he was telling people about her not because he didn't want to protect her reputation, but because he needed reinforcement for his dawning realization that he had done nothing to cause her behavior.


I agree with everything here - except that he was trying to protect her reputation. :).

If for no other reason than, honestly, what reputation was there to protect ? His friends didn't like or trust her, his closest friends mocked her to his face, and she didn't have any friends of her own.
 
He writes in his journal soon after she leaves that he's glad she's gone, basically, because he no longer has to deal with all her negativity, and that for the first time in a long time he can actually be productive. As much as anything else, I think she really did just wear him out with her constant intrusions every day she lived in Mesa.

Yep, as to finally admitting she was out to destroy him. He said exactly that to her on May 26.

The texts we have so far end with April. May texts may tell a whole different story. What I see happening in April, besides a concerted effort on her part to create an incriminating paper trail, is that she has switched to religion as a hook to keep him engaged with her.

She texts him about her going to church, asks his advice on Mormon writings, thanks him for his knowledge of the Gospel. The killer playing good girl Mormon and calling upon to support her spiritually. How was he going to say no to that?
It's relentless and insidious: now that my body is out of reach, you can still be responsible for my soul.
 
I don't think it was as clear-cut as that. She never succeeded in cutting off his other friendships, which is a hallmark of domestic violence, and he was actively pursuing other relationships in the midst of dealing with her.

I'm not saying she wasn't playing serious head games with him, she was, but he was buying it less and less. I think ultimately she realized she was losing all control over him and as he knew too much about her to be a safe enemy, she had to eliminate him as a risk to her future plans in the Mormon community.

As I said, I think he was somewhat fascinated by the dynamic between them, and the effect he apparently had on her, and misread that as originating within himself to some degree and not solely due to her sickness. He was wrong about that.

At the same time, I don't think he ever felt really threatened by her, he was puzzled by the relationship and kept it going in order to find answers, and in finding them, maybe be able to help her as well as himself.

Just like her parents, he really didn't know what he was dealing with.

Great insight! After reading all the texts on BK site, I am amazed Travis got any work done at all. It is clear to me at least, that Travis thrived on praise and validation, which Heinous reaped on him. Any time she mentioned another guy, he wanted to know all the details in a seemingly possessive and jealous way IMO. He did the same with Lisa.

My impression was that Travis was desperate to get married, but by the same token, scared of commitment. I wish he had listened to Skye and gone to see a therapist to try an figure out what held him back. Through his texts, it seemed that he was very conflicted and wrestled with being Temple Worthy and at the same time, dealing with sexual desire. Heinous fulfilled some part of that and appeased his male ego, which is why IMO he was addicted to her. Many of his texts were to his female friends, of which he had a lot, speaking of his trials and tribulations in his love life.

It must have been very hard to reconcile his need to get married with his inability to commit. On top of that, he was dealing with a sociopath whose manipulation were incredible as well as repugnant. She constantly told him how wonderful he was, which he desperately needed to hear. She gave him attention when he both wanted it and then had to deal with the invasion of his privacy and her insinuating herself into every aspect of his life. The two never balanced out IMO.
 
I agree with everything here - except that he was trying to protect her reputation. :).

If for no other reason than, honestly, what reputation was there to protect ? His friends didn't like or trust her, his closest friends mocked her to his face, and she didn't have any friends of her own.

Well, I didn't say he was successful :facepalm:

Just the fact he said what he said (she was the better person etc) in light of all she had done, shows that for whatever reason, he was protecting her reputation. It may have been out of confusion as to what he was actually responsible for in the relationship, or that he felt that she didn't deserve public consequences for private matters, but for some reason he felt like giving her a break.
 
I think it still applies; he was coming around but needed outside confirmation to change his views.

IOW he was telling people about her not because he didn't want to protect her reputation, but because he needed reinforcement for his dawning realization that he had done nothing to cause her behavior.


Circling back to say.....exactly about April being the month he began realizing, after months of being tormented by her, that he was not to blame.

I sure do hope JM at least speculates about what happened on May 26. Did she threaten him with the tape, tell him her phone had been stolen? Did he tell her he'd realized he was in love with Lisa, was determined to marry her, begged the killer not to destroy his chances and lost it when she said she couldn't help?

Or maybe May 26 was simply the culmination of everything that had come before. All his repressed anger let loose over one final straw, insignificant by itself, her provoking that anger one last time to, as DeMarte explained, justify to herself why he had to die.
 
It's relentless and insidious: now that my body is out of reach, you can still be responsible for my soul.


It is awful. She is awful- truly a destroyer of souls as well as flesh.
 
He writes in his journal soon after she leaves that he's glad she's gone, basically, because he no longer has to deal with all her negativity, and that for the first time in a long time he can actually be productive. As much as anything else, I think she really did just wear him out with her constant intrusions every day she lived in Mesa.

Yep, as to finally admitting she was out to destroy him. He said exactly that to her on May 26.

The texts we have so far end with April. May texts may tell a whole different story. What I see happening in April, besides a concerted effort on her part to create an incriminating paper trail, is that she has switched to religion as a hook to keep him engaged with her.

She texts him about her going to church, asks his advice on Mormon writings, thanks him for his knowledge of the Gospel. The killer playing good girl Mormon and calling upon to support her spiritually. How was he going to say no to that?

In that May 26th g chat, he almost wrote his death scene blow by blow IMO. Stabbing in the back and heart amongst other things. I wonder if that is what she used in her evil mind as a blueprint for his slaying.

She used every trick in the book to keep him reeled in. Falsely texting him and then saying it was meant for another guy, calling him about someone insulting his religion, texting him how great he was. His need for validation, lack of experience with women, ego, clouded his judgement in his dealings with her. I felt sad that he believed her on one hand, yet accused her of lying on the other. It was like cherry picking what he wanted to believe when it appealed to his ego.

I guess Heinous never took the polygraph about the tire slashing that she offered to take and pay for. So sad how much he wanted to believe she had nothing to do with it. IMO
 
Circling back to say.....exactly about April being the month he began realizing, after months of being tormented by her, that he was not to blame.

I sure do hope JM at least speculates about what happened on May 26. Did she threaten him with the tape, tell him her phone had been stolen? Did he tell her he'd realized he was in love with Lisa, was determined to marry her, begged the killer not to destroy his chances and lost it when she said she couldn't help?

Or maybe May 26 was simply the culmination of everything that had come before. All his repressed anger let loose over one final straw, insignificant by itself, her provoking that anger one last time to, as DeMarte explained, justify to herself why he had to die.

Speculation:

Travis: Look, Jodi, I've got to move on completely, I don't blame you for anything, but I've given myself a year to get married, and I'm going to concentrate on Lisa from now on.

Jodi: I wonder what Lisa will think of the sex tape we made...
 
Well, I didn't say he was successful :facepalm:

Just the fact he said what he said (she was the better person etc) in light of all she had done, shows that for whatever reason, he was protecting her reputation. It may have been out of confusion as to what he was actually responsible for in the relationship, or that he felt that she didn't deserve public consequences for private matters, but for some reason he felt like giving her a break.


And to Chris Hughes, OK convention, Travis said he was just using her to share gas expenses. They laughed about her being so clingy obsessive that Travis couldn't escape her by going into the bathroom because she would just follow him in to wipe his butt.

Truth seems to be there simply isn't one single perspective that fully explains anything about what Travis did or said about much of anything. He had been victimized by a sociopath predator for months, most of the hard earned success he had was under threat, and he was extraordinarily stressed by the church's dictate to get married when he simply wasn't prepared to commit even to a relationship.
 
And to Chris Hughes, OK convention, Travis said he was just using her to share gas expenses. They laughed about her being so clingy obsessive that Travis couldn't escape her by going into the bathroom because she would just follow him in to wipe his butt.

Truth seems to be there simply isn't one single perspective that explains anything about what Travis did or said about much of anything. He had been victimized by a sociopath predator for months, most of the hard earned success he had was under threat, and he was extraordinarily stressed by the church's dictate to get married when he simply wasn't prepared to commit even to a relationship.

She could give him what he wanted when he wanted, and I don't mean sex, I mean she could pretend he was getting through to her, understood, agreed, and was capable of changing and deserved forgiveness, none of it true, but just what he wanted to believe, and just enough to keep him holding on.
 
In that May 26th g chat, he almost wrote his death scene blow by blow IMO. Stabbing in the back and heart amongst other things. I wonder if that is what she used in her evil mind as a blueprint for his slaying.

She used every trick in the book to keep him reeled in. Falsely texting him and then saying it was meant for another guy, calling him about someone insulting his religion, texting him how great he was. His need for validation, lack of experience with women, ego, clouded his judgement in his dealings with her. I felt sad that he believed her on one hand, yet accused her of lying on the other. It was like cherry picking what he wanted to believe when it appealed to his ego.

I guess Heinous never took the polygraph about the tire slashing that she offered to take and pay for. So sad how much he wanted to believe she had nothing to do with it. IMO


Maybe cherry picking to appeal to his ego AND as a denial mechanism to avoid dealing with his underlying rage?

He wasn't a saint, and only a saint could genuinely forgive her for all the malicious damage she'd caused, especially to his relationships.

Beyond sad indeed, that all she had to do on her way out of town was to tell him she didn't slash his tires and he believed. What was it he said to Michelle?

" So Jodi is leaving town and there's still a psycho on the loose. "

Michelle even asked him- she's lied to you do much, how can you believe her about the "spy" Michelle? And , don't you think she probably wrote that nasty letter to Lisa?

And Travis replies.... why would she lie about that when she told me all that other stuff she didn't have to?

Aargh.
 
Maybe cherry picking to appeal to his ego AND as a denial mechanism to avoid dealing with his underlying rage?

He wasn't a saint, and only a saint could genuinely forgive her for all the malicious damage she'd caused, especially to his relationships.

Beyond sad indeed, that all she had to do on her way out of town was to tell him she didn't slash his tires and he believed. What was it he said to Michelle?

" So Jodi is leaving town and there's still a psycho on the loose. "

Michelle even asked him- she's lied to you do much, how can you believe her about the "spy" Michelle? And , don't you think she probably wrote that nasty letter to Lisa?

And Travis replies.... why would she lie about that when she told me all that other stuff she didn't have to?

Aargh.
I guess he wanted to believe there was something genuine and good about her. He just couldn't get his head around the alternative, until the end. It's easy to see her for what she is now, but he was coming at it from the other side, and anything but her true nature was probably easier for him to believe.
 
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