Sequence of Events Questioned

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

There are several scenarios that could have occurred in which children were involved with an older accomplice but the older accomplice walked. Here's some of them:

1. The cops and the grand jury may not have known of his existence. For instance, the testimony in the Atlanta interviews of 2000 revealed the cops had never even heard of Nathan Inouye.

2. The older accomplice's invovement could have been minimal compared to the damage the young boys did, so rather than bring charges, which would likely reveal the names of the children, the D.A. decided to do nothing.

3. The older accomplice would have benefited from a coverup that extended from the D.A.'s office all the way to the governor's office and kept a lid on the case and a virtual impossibility to collect crucial evidence, such as the December cellphone calls of John Ramsey.

4. The Ramsey family was involved in familial incest that included children and people from out of the family. Ratting out the adult killer would spill the beans and everybody would end up in jail.

JMO

BlueCrab:
Thanks for your reply.

Option 1. and Nathan Inouye is a possibilty since he spent quality time with both Burke and JonBenet.

Option 2. Seems like the default choice.

Option 3. Moves into the area of conspiracy theory.

Option 4. Is my preferred outside theory, other than your BDI or the PDI it also explains away lots of amnesia and apparent inconsistencies, but also depends on a degree of conspiracy.

One thing I am convinced of is the course events as presented by the Ramsey's both in interview and as staged evidence, is not what occurred.
e.g. I dont think JonBenet went to bed after entering the house that night.
JR and PR version of events was meant to chime with her fiinal staging but it was never finished.

 

[concernedperson]

It is all so sick. Bottom line is Jonbenet Ramsey was murdered and her parents know more than they are telling. I don't care who they are protecting they are just as guilty for not being forthcoming. Please, let justice for this little girl be in the forefront. Her parents pschosis is just that, but it didn't protect Jonbenet from death and I wouldn't protect her parents, either. I have met Patsy and this isn't a soul worth saving. JMO.

 

[TLynn]

I also don't believe JonBenet went to bed that night, either.

1. Her bed did not look like it had been slept in - as the bedspread was neat from the middle down to the foot of the bed.

2. The blanket was in the basement dryer - not pulled out from under the bedspread.

3. JonBenet's pajama top from that morning was at the top of the bed - apparently where she left it when she changed into clothes.

4. Burke stated he saw JonBenet walk up the stairs that night - followed by Patsy.

5. No one speaks of taking her to the bathroom before putting her to bed - or waking her at midnight for a bathroom trip (which was a Ramsey habit).

 

[BlueCrab]

(Bluecrab, I didn't find anything in a quick research on whether urine releases at death or how long afterward)

Was this paint brush molestation done after the original molestation to "cover it up?"

TLynn,

Like you, I researched the web about urine being released soon after death, and I found nothing about it. That's why I have to take the word of my physician friend who said that urine does not release after death. Of course, he's an emergency room physician, so perhaps he doesn't have the opportunity to see what happens to the person once he's tried everything to keep him or her alive, but the patient dies anyway and is taken away.

In regard to the celluloid in the vagina, at least one of the experts who examined the photos and the slides says that the celluloid had been in the vagina prior to December 25. I tend to agree with his analysis because fibers from the EA device were found in JonBenet's bed, and they had to have been deposited there in the bed prior to December 25. Therefore, the cellulose from the wooden stick on the device could also have been deposited in JonBenet's vagina prior to December 25. It appears the stick could have been an integral part of the EA masturbation procedure voluntarily used on or used by JonBenet.

JMO

 

[UKGuy]

I also don't believe JonBenet went to bed that night, either.

1. Her bed did not look like it had been slept in - as the bedspread was neat from the middle down to the foot of the bed.

2. The blanket was in the basement dryer - not pulled out from under the bedspread.

3. JonBenet's pajama top from that morning was at the top of the bed - apparently where she left it when she changed into clothes.

4. Burke stated he saw JonBenet walk up the stairs that night - followed by Patsy.

5. No one speaks of taking her to the bathroom before putting her to bed - or waking her at midnight for a bathroom trip (which was a Ramsey habit).

TLynn:
1. Her bed did not look like it had been slept in - as the bedspread was neat from the middle down to the foot of the bed.
Yes curious that as if a previous staging had been prepared but abandoned, since this one is in conflict with the basement staging. i.e. I suspect she was meant to appear as if she had been abducted sleeping from her bedroom.

2. The blanket was in the basement dryer - not pulled out from under the bedspread. If this is the white blanket found with JonBenet how do you know this?

3. JonBenet's pajama top from that morning was at the top of the bed - apparently where she left it when she changed into clothes.

Patsy explained this one away by suggesting she did not want to wake JonBenet up by having to get her into a nightgown etc. So she opted for those white longjohns!

4. Burke stated he saw JonBenet walk up the stairs that night - followed by Patsy.

Its possible at that point in time either Burke or JonBenet were not present in the house.

And the cellulose material found inside JonBenet's body can also have been transferred simply because the perp touched the paintbrush, or as you suggest the paintbrush too.

 

[concernedperson]

Maybe because your ER friend has the after effects he is not privy to the actual death. If the bladder is full when you die you will release the urine. I have seen this for myself. Don't deny what is the natural effects of death.

 

[Nehemiah]

It is all so sick. Bottom line is Jonbenet Ramsey was murdered and her parents know more than they are telling. I don't care who they are protecting they are just as guilty for not being forthcoming. Please, let justice for this little girl be in the forefront. Her parents pschosis is just that, but it didn't protect Jonbenet from death and I wouldn't protect her parents, either. I have met Patsy and this isn't a soul worth saving. JMO.

Where did you meet Patsy and under what circumstances?

 

[TLynn]

Both Patsy and the Maid have said if the blanket wasn't on the bed, it would be in the downstairs washer/dryer.

The maid stated she changed JonBenet's sheets when she was there and the sheets on JonBenet's bed were not the ones she put on - so, the sheets were changed.

In the transcripts, Patsy states something about the blanket - if not on the bed it would be in the downstairs dryer - but (if I remember correctly), Patsy doesn't remember where the blanket was that night. If it was on the bed when she tucked JonBenet in....?

It's been a while so I don't remember the exact transcript...but that's the lasting impression.

Also, JonBenet's pajama top from that morning was at the top of the bed - not meaning that Patsy didn't want to change her into it - but that the pillow or JonBenet's "sleeping" head didn't disturb it.

 

[gaia]

What is the consensus amongst you guys? You're stellar in presenting your ideas about what happened.

Let's try this. Let's grant I'm stupid. That's easy. Now......

What is the best, most supported scenario? Who says so? Who are you? Why? What do you have to condemn other theories? What's so good about yours?

My thoughts are scattered and prejudiced. I'd love to get the straight stuff from someone who's laundered their prejudices and delighted in presenting the TRUTH.

Please..... :croc:

 

[UKGuy]

Both Patsy and the Maid have said if the blanket wasn't on the bed, it would be in the downstairs washer/dryer.

The maid stated she changed JonBenet's sheets when she was there and the sheets on JonBenet's bed were not the ones she put on - so, the sheets were changed.

In the transcripts, Patsy states something about the blanket - if not on the bed it would be in the downstairs dryer - but (if I remember correctly), Patsy doesn't remember where the blanket was that night. If it was on the bed when she tucked JonBenet in....?

It's been a while so I don't remember the exact transcript...but that's the lasting impression.

Also, JonBenet's pajama top from that morning was at the top of the bed - not meaning that Patsy didn't want to change her into it - but that the pillow or JonBenet's "sleeping" head didn't disturb it.

TLynn,

Yes Patsy said normally the blanket should have been on her bed, she could not explain why it was not, she could not remember if it was on the night she said she undressed JonBenet and put her to bed.

The Maid suggested if it was off the bed this might be because it had been soiled and needed washed.

Yes the whole bed had been remade, or it had never been slept in. I reckon it was part of the unfinished staging , I suspect there was a prior staging which supported some other scenario, but was abondonded, and synchronizing the upstairs staging with the downstairs staging was never completed. It looks like the downstairs staging became predominant.

The white blanket is/was very important since you can make forensic inferences from it. But JR circumvented that route by finding JonBenet.

If you accept JonBenet was not wiped down for aesthetic reasons, then similarly her bed may not have been changed and remade for reasons of hygeine or domestic symmetry. This may suggest a non-ramsey, presence, otherwise why the need to be so forensically clinical. If I were to write a profile report this is one detail I would highlight.

 

[concernedperson]

Where did you meet Patsy and under what circumstances?

I am sorry I just saw this post or I would have answered sooner. I met Patsy Ramsey in 1998 or 1999, can't remember which as I was not particularly interested in her.

I was working on a large rental real estate development in Atlanta. I had just been transferred there from another property. The Ramsey's were living there while their house was being built. A very expensive community..I might add. For rentals....

She came into the leasing office expecting a package and flew into a rage because it was there but hadn't been delivered to her apartment. We did cater to residents but we were very busy and most residents would come to the office and pick up anything delivered while they were out for the day. And, not complain, just glad they didn't have to go to UPS to retrieve it. But, not Patsy, her face became distorted and veins were extended and she was screaming at one of my co-workers. Not me or she would have had to deal with screaming back at her. Anyway, it was very much an entitlement situation and she enjoyed humiliating someone for her discomfort. I watched this whole scenario and put it in my back pocket for future discovery. I didn't get the internet at home until 2002 so my research was limited to my employers computers and that wasn't feasible. But now, I am a happy on line camper.

So, in essence if you see someone behave like that there is more to it. And from what I have read...I am sure of it.

 

[Show Me]

Concerned person, thanks for your input. I probably would have lost my temper also, had Patsy acted that way to me.

Entitlement sums up the Rams quite nicely....if the cameras had been rolling, you'd see a different side of Patsy- her sugar sweet, poor little me I had cancer and my 'that' child was murdered and what a good Christian I am persona.

Looks like you got a good first hand look at the REAL Patsy.

 

[UKGuy]

What is the consensus amongst you guys? You're stellar in presenting your ideas about what happened.

Let's try this. Let's grant I'm stupid. That's easy. Now......

What is the best, most supported scenario? Who says so? Who are you? Why? What do you have to condemn other theories? What's so good about yours?

My thoughts are scattered and prejudiced. I'd love to get the straight stuff from someone who's laundered their prejudices and delighted in presenting the TRUTH.

Please..... :croc:

Gaia,

The nature of the crime is such that there is unlikely to be consensus, unless there were to be a forensic or confessional breakthrough.

People simply have their favorite theories and ideas. Which roughly are Patsy Did It (PDI), Burke Did It (BDI) or an Intruder Did It (IDI). There are others but they can usually be subsumed under some known heading.

BlueCrab's BDI is fairly consistent, and appears the front runner since it explains lots of evidence. Similarly PDI, but its not so consistent, but this may be because evidence has been removed. The IDI is the least consistent but should not be ruled out , since an Intruder may have been an associate taking advantage of unknown circumstances. Last but not least is the old chestnut of some kind of conspiracy theory where the leading characters are all involved but conspire to coverup.

p.s.
Hopefully we dont condemn theories, we discuss them ? Currently only whoever killed JonBenet knows the truth, I am still searching.

 

[Show Me]

Patsy's the type who wouldn't donate to the Tsunami victims, unless she's on camera and can brag about it.

 

[sissi]

What is the consensus amongst you guys? You're stellar in presenting your ideas about what happened.

Let's try this. Let's grant I'm stupid. That's easy. Now......

What is the best, most supported scenario? Who says so? Who are you? Why? What do you have to condemn other theories? What's so good about yours?

My thoughts are scattered and prejudiced. I'd love to get the straight stuff from someone who's laundered their prejudices and delighted in presenting the TRUTH.

Please..... :croc:

IMO the easiest scenario to entertain is one that includes the Pughs.
Linda, tiring of picking up shards of whittle debris, hides Burke's knife and does NOT tell a Ramsey. However the knife appears to be "part of the crime".
Linda ,after arguing with her sister, begs a loan of Patsy for 2000 dollars, and agrees to stop by while they are away to straighten up the "place" and pick up the check.
Ariana , not invited to the little gathering until the last minute,borrows clothing from Patsy to "look nice", Patsy scribbles a few lines for Santa to read to her.( do fibers transfer in closets..sure do)
Linda and Merv spend a quiet Christmas day, celebrating poverty with their dinner of tacos, while Merv slips into a drunken condition. (I can not believe the tale of the rich, have it alls ,wasn't a topic at that dinner.)
The police arrive, Merv is drunk, ? into the next day?? Merv says, "did they strangle her?". Hmm..no one else had heard of this?
The cops ask for the sharpies and pads , identical to Patsy's (well now of course they were taken from the Ramseys) view them and consider them unimportant..because..they were too damn dumb to write that ransom note??? A BPD opinion!!
Linda, " I didn't know where that room was"..huh? she and Merv had worked alone in the house over Thanksgiving, putting up trees and fixing a few broken things, one of which was SUPPOSE to be that window..did they fix it? was it rebroken? no one knows!!!
Linda.." the blanket was in the dryer.....
Linda.."the panties and other items of clothing were always in the same drawers.
Linda..." I would put items back on the spiral stairs after cleaning them out for Patsy...purses..etc.
Linda told Patsy someone could kidnap Jonbenet!
There's more, however the best ...Linda had a key, and a reason to be in that house if the Ramseys were to awaken..."I came to pick up the check early"

Everything fits nicely, except I don't believe any of the above, and could work out a similar scenario for Santa and Fleet, but more ..I continue to wonder...about the TWINS that lived with Melody Stanton. Who were they..how old..??

 

[concernedperson]

Concerned person, thanks for your input. I probably would have lost my temper also, had Patsy acted that way to me.

Entitlement sums up the Rams quite nicely....if the cameras had been rolling, you'd see a different side of Patsy- her sugar sweet, poor little me I had cancer and my 'that' child was murdered and what a good Christian I am persona.

Looks like you got a good first hand look at the REAL Patsy.

Its a no question about Patsy. If you had been there you would know. Just because you have a physical ailment doesn't mean you are immune this is a woman with no soul. I will go to my grave with that knowledge and honestly, I wish I had never met her. But it opened my eyes to other criminals and their behavior. So, it is too late for Jonbenet but for others it is still possible.

 

[tezi]

Sissi, the Pugh's have been cleared.

Why must you make fun of them eating tacos for Christmas dinner?

At last check the Pughs fully cooperated with LE unlike the Ramseys. :doh:

Also, I believe the reference about FW changing JB was in the Ramsey's book "Death of Innocence" (AKA as DoLie). I can't find my copy right now, so I will look in ST's book and see if the incident is in there. I just know it wasn't Christmas when this event happened.

 

[princessmer81]

In DOI John says that Burke had to help JonBenet read the tags on the gifts because she couldn't read.
Patsy said during one of the interviews (can't remember which right now) that she didn't know if JonBenet was wearing those size 12 panties on Dec. 25 or not. My question is, if JonBenet dressed herself and took it upon herself to open the new pkg. of size 12 panties how did she acurately pick the Wednesday Bloomies if she couldn't read?
Also, even if she did get the panties out and she did happen to choose the correct day it would have been very uncomfortable for her to wear those size 12 panties scrunched up inside of her little size 6 black pants - I would think that she would take them off and choose a pair that fit her. If she did leave them on I would think that someone would have noticed all of the extra fabric bunched up in her pants and told her to go put on a different pair.

So given all that I doubt that she had the panties on when she was murderd - she must have been re-dressed. Who else would have known where to find a new pair of panties? Most people would first check in her room, but would an intruder really be so bold as to go looking aroud her room opening and closing drawers looking for panties?
I know that JonBenet's panties were kept in her bathroom. Can anyone remind me where the size 12 pkg of panties were kept?

 

[UKGuy]

princessmer81:

"I know that JonBenet's panties were kept in her bathroom. Can anyone remind me where the size 12 pkg of panties were kept?"

Patsy said she opened and placed the size-12 underwear in the bathroom for JonBenet, but the police said they only collected size-4 and size-6 from the bathroom location. They were originally supposed to be in her bedroom drawer unopened.

The unable to read aspect would not normally be so important, since many girls can select by color or pattern, but this was the first time any of that pack had been worn, so the Day of The Week takes on a significance, given it was a Wednesday.

There still exists the possibility that she changed herself once she returned home.

If someone had changed her underwear, which is natural to assume, but she may not have been wearing anything when she was killed!

So she may have been re-dressed e.g. in a red top, with her hair bunched up, tethered by a rope to some household object, with the knots at the back causing the abrasions, simply by force of gravity and pressure. Also they may have been amplified if the tethering was used to carry her from one location to another.

This may have been an initial attempt at staging, and was possibly intended to be part of an outdoor scenario, which may have included an indecent posture or pose, to suggest a deviant perpetrator.

But snowfall or the inability to follow it through meant some other staging was needed so at some point abduction from her bed was next. So whether she was wiped down now and re-dressed in those size-12 pants, and probably the longjohns is a moot point.

There may have been multiple stagings iterated until it appeared satisfactory, with her moving from location to location then finally arriving in basement room enclosed in a blanket. Why a blanket, why anything she was intended to be discovered? Also what likely seems either a trivial detail or a significant one, depending on your favorite whodunnit, she was wearing no socks!

Where were her socks, where were her size-6 pants, why are some things missing, or are these just accidents of circumstance during a staged murder scene?

 

[TLynn]

Maybe she never had on smaller panties - maybe she wore the bigger "Wednesday" panties to the White's house. What's the source that factualizes there were smaller panties in the first place?

Maybe they're not missing - maybe they never existed.