Serious DNA discussion

[LinasK]

I think she was hidden there because the Rs really believed that after the 911 call the police would come, take some information, and then leave to begin a search. I think they may have called all their friends over to organize a search party. After everyone left, they planned to call police and say they "found" her- that she'd obviously been killed because they disobeyed the RN and called police.
JR may have gone to the basement the first time (when LA thought he'd gone to "get the mail"- even though the Rs had a mail slot in the door and he only had to walk to his front hall to get it) and possibly that's when the wrist cords were applied- yes, her arms would have nearly been in full rigor by then, which accounts for the ridiculous distance between her hands. He was continuing to stage the kidnapping, adding the arm restraints.
Then, when police did NOT leave the house, JR jumped at that opportunity LA gave him and ran back to the basement to "find" her, realizing he really couldn't wait any longer.

This is an excellent scenario to describe the R's thought process... you may be on to something!

 

[robotdog]

This is an excellent scenario to describe the R's thought process... you may be on to something!

:woohoo:

deedee is on to something

 

[angelwngs]

I think she was hidden there because the Rs really believed that after the 911 call the police would come, take some information, and then leave to begin a search. I think they may have called all their friends over to organize a search party. After everyone left, they planned to call police and say they "found" her- that she'd obviously been killed because they disobeyed the RN and called police.
JR may have gone to the basement the first time (when LA thought he'd gone to "get the mail"- even though the Rs had a mail slot in the door and he only had to walk to his front hall to get it) and possibly that's when the wrist cords were applied- yes, her arms would have nearly been in full rigor by then, which accounts for the ridiculous distance between her hands. He was continuing to stage the kidnapping, adding the arm restraints.
Then, when police did NOT leave the house, JR jumped at that opportunity LA gave him and ran back to the basement to "find" her, realizing he really couldn't wait any longer.

How long would she have had to have been dead and in the basement for cadaver dogs to have identified a smell in the basement?

 

[DeeDee249]

How long would she have had to have been dead and in the basement for cadaver dogs to have identified a smell in the basement?

Not that long. If you study forensic entomology (the determining of TOD by the instars (development stages) of various species of insects found on a cadaver) you will see that the first insects can arrive within 10 minutes of death, even in winter and even indoors, though it takes longer then. These insects have a great sense of smell and the chemical process that begins with death produces an odor LONG before the odor of decomposition, which humans of course can smell. Cadaver dogs can smell decomposition long before humans, but not as fast as insects. The dogs are trained to detect decomposition at a certain stage. I'd say that by the time LE arrived that morning, she'd have been dead about 6 hours and the dogs would very likely have found her. BEFORE JR had and chance to contaminate the body.

 

[angelwngs]

Not that long. If you study forensic entomology (the determining of TOD by the instars (development stages) of various species of insects found on a cadaver) you will see that the first insects can arrive within 10 minutes of death, even in winter and even indoors, though it takes longer then. These insects have a great sense of smell and the chemical process that begins with death produces an odor LONG before the odor of decomposition, which humans of course can smell. Cadaver dogs can smell decomposition long before humans, but not as fast as insects. The dogs are trained to detect decomposition at a certain stage. I'd say that by the time LE arrived that morning, she'd have been dead about 6 hours and the dogs would very likely have found her. BEFORE JR had and chance to contaminate the body.

Thank you, Dee. To your knowledge, has anyone ever asked why dogs, both blood hounds and cadaver dogs were not considered to be used? (I've never heard it mentioned.)

 

[LinasK]

Thank you, Dee. To your knowledge, has anyone ever asked why dogs, both blood hounds and cadaver dogs were not considered to be used? (I've never heard it mentioned.)

Because BPD believed the Ramseys that JBR was kidnapped out of the house??? They didn't even do a manual search without dogs to see if she was stuck in an appliance (like a refrigerator or washer) or hiding.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And I never presumed what SBTC meant either. I never said that, nor have I said that in all my years of posting. I do not know what the initials mean, if anything. I do know the ransom note writer felt they had to come up with something that "sounded like" the terrorist group they were supposed to represent. It is my opinion that Patsy wrote the ransom note, therefore, she would have been the one who created the initials.

The two sentences in this paragraph seem paradoxical.

If you've already decided on PR's guilt as you've noted above, then its easy to come up with your conclusions. At least that is somewhat logical, as I suppose PR would be making an attempt at sounding like a foreign faction group, using "Victory!" and "SBTC" as a cryptic message nobody will understand.

Sure enough, nobody understands it. The only thing the cryptic SBTC can be matched to is the equally cryptic 'small foreign faction'.

Why didn't PR just claim she was with the PLO or SLA or something?

 

[LinasK]

If you've already decided on PR's guilt as you've noted above, then its easy to come up with your conclusions. At least that is somewhat logical, as I suppose PR would be making an attempt at sounding like a foreign faction group, using "Victory!" and "SBTC" as a cryptic message nobody will understand.

Sure enough, nobody understands it. The only thing the cryptic SBTC can be matched to is the equally cryptic 'small foreign faction'.

Why didn't PR just claim she was with the PLO or SLA or something?

Good question! Since we can't ask Patsy, maybe John knows why.

 

[Chrishope]

I think she was hidden there because the Rs really believed that after the 911 call the police would come, take some information, and then leave to begin a search. I think they may have called all their friends over to organize a search party. After everyone left, they planned to call police and say they "found" her- that she'd obviously been killed because they disobeyed the RN and called police.
JR may have gone to the basement the first time (when LA thought he'd gone to "get the mail"- even though the Rs had a mail slot in the door and he only had to walk to his front hall to get it) and possibly that's when the wrist cords were applied- yes, her arms would have nearly been in full rigor by then, which accounts for the ridiculous distance between her hands. He was continuing to stage the kidnapping, adding the arm restraints.
Then, when police did NOT leave the house, JR jumped at that opportunity LA gave him and ran back to the basement to "find" her, realizing he really couldn't wait any longer.

Makes sense.

 

[Chrishope]

Why didn't PR just claim she was with the PLO or SLA or something?

Because those are real organizations that can be investigated, and can also deny any involvement.

 

[angelwngs]

Because BPD believed the Ramseys that JBR was kidnapped out of the house??? They didn't even do a manual search without dogs to see if she was stuck in an appliance (like a refrigerator or washer) or hiding.

I always thought the dryer in the basement was the perfect original place, had the theory of her being moved been proven true.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Why didn't PR just claim she was with the PLO or SLA or something?

Because those are real organizations that can be investigated, and can also deny any involvement.

This seems like a reasonable answer. Is this why the R's were investigated and not one foreign faction even considered?

I would think throwing in a real name would've, as you say, misled investigators more effectively. Not doing so seems to have been a mistake?

 

[Chrishope]

This seems like a reasonable answer. Is this why the R's were investigated and not one foreign faction even considered?

I would think throwing in a real name would've, as you say, misled investigators more effectively. Not doing so seems to have been a mistake?

It's difficult now to tell what was a lucky mistake and what was intentional.

I'd assume that the FBI/CIA are keeping tabs on the PLO, SLA, AQ, etc. They'd probably know, or be reasonably certain there were no links.

 

[Cherokee]

Why didn't PR just claim she was with the PLO or SLA or something?

Because those are real organizations that can be investigated, and can also deny any involvement.

Exactly.

The ransom note writer had to invent the foreign faction, which strangely reverted from a plural pronoun to a singular pronoun and back again. The foreign faction's membership apparently diminished and then grew larger within the time it took to write three pages. Those terrorists were a fickle bunch, but I digress.

In the ransom note writer's mind, the invented foreign faction and the invented intruder needed a "foreign faction" sounding name. It's like when TV writers create a back story for a fictional character. There are certain aspects needed to flesh out the background of the character to make it seem real.

The SBTC didn't have to stand for anything, but it had to seem real enough to buy time and make a fake kidnapping the scenario the police responded to instead of a dead body call. Putting the name or initials of a real organization might have tipped off the police that something hinky was going on. Why would the PLO kidnap or murder JonBenet Ramsey in Boulder, CO? They had bigger fish to fry.

 

[LI_Mom]

I think she was hidden there because the Rs really believed that after the 911 call the police would come, take some information, and then leave to begin a search. I think they may have called all their friends over to organize a search party. After everyone left, they planned to call police and say they "found" her- that she'd obviously been killed because they disobeyed the RN and called police.
JR may have gone to the basement the first time (when LA thought he'd gone to "get the mail"- even though the Rs had a mail slot in the door and he only had to walk to his front hall to get it) and possibly that's when the wrist cords were applied- yes, her arms would have nearly been in full rigor by then, which accounts for the ridiculous distance between her hands. He was continuing to stage the kidnapping, adding the arm restraints.
Then, when police did NOT leave the house, JR jumped at that opportunity LA gave him and ran back to the basement to "find" her, realizing he really couldn't wait any longer.

I don't believe they would have thought the police would leave. Anyone who watches tv or reads books KNOWS the police sit in the house waiting for the kidnappers to call.


Btw, did the police ever get taps on the phones so they could trace the kidnapper's call? Tape recorders?

All I remember is John saying the police told him what to say when the call came.... can't remember the rest.

 

[LI_Mom]

Thank you, Dee. To your knowledge, has anyone ever asked why dogs, both blood hounds and cadaver dogs were not considered to be used? (I've never heard it mentioned.)

Boulder couldn't even round up POLICE OFFICERS.... do you think they could have located search dogs?


Doesn't it usually take time to get search dogs on a case.... they usually come in from out of town?

 

[LI_Mom]

Exactly.

The ransom note writer had to invent the foreign faction, which strangely reverted from a plural pronoun to a singular pronoun and back again. The foreign faction's membership apparently diminished and then grew larger within the time it took to write three pages. Those terrorists were a fickle bunch, but I digress.

In the ransom note writer's mind, the invented foreign faction and the invented intruder needed a "foreign faction" sounding name. It's like when TV writers create a back story for a fictional character. There are certain aspects needed to flesh out the background of the character to make it seem real.

The SBTC didn't have to stand for anything, but it had to seem real enough to buy time and make a fake kidnapping the scenario the police responded to instead of a dead body call. Putting the name or initials of a real organization might have tipped off the police that something hinky was going on. Why would the PLO kidnap or murder JonBenet Ramsey in Boulder, CO? They had bigger fish to fry.

Unfortunately, SBTC is a well known acronym for "Saved By The Cross" & that leads investigators/profilers straight to a perp who is Christian & wondering if that wasn't just a major subconscious blunder on the part of the author!

 

[Indianagirl]

I think she was hidden there because the Rs really believed that after the 911 call the police would come, take some information, and then leave to begin a search. I think they may have called all their friends over to organize a search party. After everyone left, they planned to call police and say they "found" her- that she'd obviously been killed because they disobeyed the RN and called police.
JR may have gone to the basement the first time (when LA thought he'd gone to "get the mail"- even though the Rs had a mail slot in the door and he only had to walk to his front hall to get it) and possibly that's when the wrist cords were applied- yes, her arms would have nearly been in full rigor by then, which accounts for the ridiculous distance between her hands. He was continuing to stage the kidnapping, adding the arm restraints.
Then, when police did NOT leave the house, JR jumped at that opportunity LA gave him and ran back to the basement to "find" her, realizing he really couldn't wait any longer.

I think you are definitely on to something! I was asked on here why I thought JR found the body with a witness? I'm not sure what I think??? Maybe the "witness" insisted on searching with him and wouldn't let him look alone? I think JR might have been trying to lose FW by walking fast in front of him and bouncing from room to room in the basement. But FW kept up. Does anyone else on here have an opinion as to why JR had a witness with him when he found the body?

 

[Chrishope]

I think you are definitely on to something! I was asked on here why I thought JR found the body with a witness? I'm not sure what I think??? Maybe the "witness" insisted on searching with him and wouldn't let him look alone? Does anyone else on here have an opinion as to why JR had a witness with him when he found the body?

Pure accident is my guess. JR couldn't have known that Linda Arendt would send him and FW to search for "things out of place". (A dead body is quite out of place).

 

[KoldKase]

Pure accident is my guess. JR couldn't have known that Linda Arendt would send him and FW to search for "things out of place". (A dead body is quite out of place).

I believe the Ramseys expected LE to find JonBenet very quickly. I don't think they could possibly have predicted LE would see that latched door and, having actually BOUGHT the "kidnapping" story, simply said, Oh, well, kidnappers wouldn't be in a room locked from the outside. The door also "stuck" and so Officer French...or was it the other one?...simply used his "good common sense" and walked away.

Fleet White must have thought the same thing, as he opened the door and, unable to find the counter-intuitive position of the light switch, couldn't see anything in the dark and so, sensing no living person was in the room, left. I doubt he questioned the Ramsey's story at all at that point. I imagine it took seeing the little girl he knew for two years lying dead in the cellar room to make him wonder about his close friends and their post-murder behavior.