Serious DNA discussion

[Cherokee]

You're right. I stated my claim as fact that you presumed SBTC is religious.

You are absolutely and totally wrong!

I NEVER stated that I presumed SBTC to be religious. Nowhere did I state that or claim that or whatever YOU want to call it. Find my post where I said that. Go ahead and try. You'll spend the rest of your life because I never said ANYTHING about SBTC being religious.

What I did address was your statement that the word "Victory!" had no religious connotation. I proved that it DID have religious connotations, but you have conveniently ignored that post because it proved you wrong. You have not said one word about it.

Furthermore, I didn't even state that Patsy used "Victory" as a religious reference. All I did was prove it COULD have been a religious reference. Once again, I never said one thing about SBTC having religious connotations. You are trying to put words in my mouth. Typical IDI trait.

Do you know how many times SBTC has been presumed without a single basis for it? I'll tell you this, I have NEVER stated whate I thought it meant. Not because I have no ideas, but because there's nothing to support any of them. Sure I could throw stuff out, but without any support it would amount to idle speculation.

And I never presumed what SBTC meant either. I never said that, nor have I said that in all my years of posting. I do not know what the initials mean, if anything. I do know the ransom note writer felt they had to come up with something that "sounded like" the terrorist group they were supposed to represent. It is my opinion that Patsy wrote the ransom note, therefore, she would have been the one who created the initials.

I also discussed the absolute non-necessity of any terrorist organization (or crazed intruder) to provide an indented closing to their ransom note. I tried to get you to look at a comparison of Patsy's closings to the ransom note, but you refuse. Why?

Here is the link again:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=6404

What are you afraid of? Why do you refuse to even look at a comparison?

I'm moving on now.

Of course you're "moving on." You have no answers to my questions and no rebuttals to my arguments. You will not admit that you were wrong about "Victory," and you are afraid to look at evidence that might change your presumptions and preconceived notions. You accuse others of saying things they did not say, and then try to "move on" when you are caught out.

Stay and defend your word and actions. Be a different kind of IDI - one that backs up their theory with facts and documented evidence. Don't cut and run like the other IDIs when they are faced with incontrovertible proof of the Ramsey's culpability.

 

[coloradokares]

"Assuming" the Ramseys did do it, has anyone ever wondered what their purpose would have been to leave JBR down in the basement, assuming the police would find her? I think when the Ramseys called the police they did not know that the police would get there and tell them to search the house. They probably thought the police would search the house and locate her. My point being why would JR decide to "act" like he found the body, when originally the Ramseys probably "assumed' the police would search the house and find her? Hope this makes sense.

Do you think he panicked, or wanted to contaminate the crime scene, etc.??

I have oft wondered if there intent was to get out of Dodge and then let the body be found in the moutains somewhere. Placed there by not by any SFF but the recovery team Lockheed. I may be complicating this far more than it needs to be. But they were sure trying to get out of town

 

[Cherokee]

Personally, the most frustrating thing about discussing this case with many IDI's is that it seems as if they either sincerely feel as if all RDI's want the R's to be guilty.

Just for the record, I, as one RDI, do not. I never have wanted them to be guilty. I desperately wish that it could be proven that someone JBR did not know, someone she did not trust, someone she did not Love, did theses horrible things to her, violently stealing her life from her.

This feeling is why there is such great conflict with this case. Each time my heart takes the lead, and it happens often, I search for some way the R's could be innocent of any wrong doing. I wish my logical side could eliminate the mountain of facts which always cause my heart to be still in the realization that in all probability, JBR not only knew here murderer(s), but Loved them/him/her dearly.

I seriously believe that there are many RDI's who feel the same.

Angelwings, I agree with your post 100%. As I stated earlier, I originally thought the Ramsey innocent, and it was only much soul-searching I finally came to the conclusion I could not ignore the evidence that pointed to their involvement in JonBenet's death and the subsequent cover-up. No one wants to believe a parent is guilty (accidental or otherwise) in the death of their child, but that is where the evidence leads.

I wholeheartedly resent IDIs saying that we WANT the Ramseys to be guilty, or that we are BENT on the Ramseys being guilty. They accuse us of being envious of the Ramseys wealth or envious of Patsy, blah blah blah. That is tantamount to a great insult, and I am incensed that they continue to use that kind of idiotic statement as a defense whenever we bring up incriminating evidence against the Ramseys. If IDIs cannot refute evidence, they begin calling names and insulting the motivations of the poster who presented the evidence.

I am posting this once again for the record.

I do not WANT the Ramseys to be guilty of anything. However, I cannot ignore or logically dismiss the mountain of evidence against them. To do so would be to leave JonBenet still lying under that Christmas tree, forgotten, as her parents rushed out the door.

 

[JMO8778]

"Assuming" the Ramseys did do it, has anyone ever wondered what their purpose would have been to leave JBR down in the basement, assuming the police would find her? I think when the Ramseys called the police they did not know that the police would get there and tell them to search the house. They probably thought the police would search the house and locate her. My point being why would JR decide to "act" like he found the body, when originally the Ramseys probably "assumed' the police would search the house and find her? Hope this makes sense.

Do you think he panicked, or wanted to contaminate the crime scene, etc.??

contaminate,and I think he was tired of playing the waiting game that day...I think he thought police would leave them alone since the note said the KN would call 'tomorrow'.
But it was getting on to be 1pm,and within 20 mins. of finding the body,he was already trying to get out of town via his private plane and hired pilot..he knew another flight plan would have to be filed,and that takes time.I think he 'found' her before it got to be too late to leave town that day,in order to get the show on the road,so to speak.

 

[JMO8778]

I have oft wondered if there intent was to get out of Dodge and then let the body be found in the moutains somewhere. Placed there by not by any SFF but the recovery team Lockheed. I may be complicating this far more than it needs to be. But they were sure trying to get out of town

I've always thought there was a prior plan to get her out of the house..'denied her remains',just as the note says.But,just like the body appears to have been restaged (via the wrist restraints applied after rigor set in,and perhaps changing her clothes,etc.),for whatever reason,that plan was abandoned,and a new one set in motion.

 

[LI_Mom]

I've always thought there was a prior plan to get her out of the house..'denied her remains',just as the note says.But,just like the body appears to have been restaged (via the wrist restraints applied after rigor set in,and perhaps changing her clothes,etc.),for whatever reason,that plan was abandoned,and a new one set in motion.

what else could they do..... throw a fit & decide to go on CNN instead of heading back to Boulder to see that JB's murder was solved.

 

[Chrishope]

"Assuming" the Ramseys did do it, has anyone ever wondered what their purpose would have been to leave JBR down in the basement, assuming the police would find her? I think when the Ramseys called the police they did not know that the police would get there and tell them to search the house. They probably thought the police would search the house and locate her. My point being why would JR decide to "act" like he found the body, when originally the Ramseys probably "assumed' the police would search the house and find her? Hope this makes sense.

Do you think he panicked, or wanted to contaminate the crime scene, etc.??

I think you're right about the assumptions. I think they figured on the police searching the house and finding her within say 10 to 15 minutes.

It's somewhat ironic that the police were so busy working crowd control (all the guests invited over by the Rs - Hey our daughters been kidnapped, wanna come over? ) that they didn't do a good search.

One possibility, as others have mentioned, is that the killers were going to move the body but for some reason couldn't - neighbors might see - might hear or see the car leave and come back. The dark room in the basement was the only place they could put her.

 

[Chrishope]

Personally, the most frustrating thing about discussing this case with many IDI's is that it seems as if they either sincerely feel as if all RDI's want the R's to be guilty.

Just for the record, I, as one RDI, do not. I never have wanted them to be guilty. I desperately wish that it could be proven that someone JBR did not know, someone she did not trust, someone she did not Love, did theses horrible things to her, violently stealing her life from her.

This feeling is why there is such great conflict with this case. Each time my heart takes the lead, and it happens often, I search for some way the R's could be innocent of any wrong doing. I wish my logical side could eliminate the mountain of facts which always cause my heart to be still in the realization that in all probability, JBR not only knew here murderer(s), but Loved them/him/her dearly.

I seriously believe that there are many RDI's who feel the same.

It seems apparent that many IDI's are in conflict because their logical brains either do not see the facts in the same reality or that they simply enjoy the debate. If it is the latter, that is indeed sad, as it does absolutely nothing to help find justice for this innocent little girl.

I love SD's line: 'Keep and open mind, just not so open that your brain falls out.'

In seeking Truth, with Justice our ultimate goal, it would be so nice to be able to 'agree to disagree' on various points of the case without there being a 'line drawn in the sand' dividing and diminishing our energy and our efforts.

I wanted to comment on this, even though I have a different perspective. It's a good post.

I've been leaning RDI since the contents of the RN were revealed. I'm completely unemotional about who the killer is. I know it sounds horrible, but I really don't care who killer JBR. I didn't know her until the media got the story. The available clues seem to me to point to an RDI theory.

 

[LinasK]

I wanted to comment on this, even though I have a different perspective. It's a good post.

I've been leaning RDI since the contents of the RN were revealed. I'm completely unemotional about who the killer is. I know it sounds horrible, but I really don't care who killer JBR. I didn't know her until the media got the story. The available clues seem to me to point to an RDI theory.

ChrisHope, I've read your posts, and I think you're totally on target!

 

[angelwngs]

"Assuming" the Ramseys did do it, has anyone ever wondered what their purpose would have been to leave JBR down in the basement, assuming the police would find her? I think when the Ramseys called the police they did not know that the police would get there and tell them to search the house. They probably thought the police would search the house and locate her. My point being why would JR decide to "act" like he found the body, when originally the Ramseys probably "assumed' the police would search the house and find her? Hope this makes sense.

Do you think he panicked, or wanted to contaminate the crime scene, etc.??

It was after 1 PM in the afternoon. Can you imagine how slowly each minute would go by in your own home if LE were there for that length of time and your daughter still lay dead in your basement and they STILL had not found her? Tick-Tock...Tick-Tock...Tick-Tock...

It would be interesting to see how fast JR moved when LA suggested that he go look and see if he found anything 'out of place'. If we only had a video tape...

If there was a plan to contaminate JBR's body, I think the plan was to throw themselves on JBR when the LE found her. It just didn't happen as planned...

Murphy's Law...'Go to Plan B'...

 

[BBB167893]

Indianagirl, the latter. Why do you think he had a witness?

Cherokee, don't forget who you're talking to. I'm the poster child for soul searching.

 

[robotdog]

I have oft wondered if there intent was to get out of Dodge and then let the body be found in the moutains somewhere. Placed there by not by any SFF but the recovery team Lockheed. I may be complicating this far more than it needs to be. But they were sure trying to get out of town

i do think they wanted JBR to be found outside of the house in their original plan. for some reason - perhaps they were simply running out of time or they were just skerrrred of having someone see them as they were driving out of the driveway at 1 or 2 in the morning or skeeeered that someone would see them as they came back.

12:45 is when i think the murder took place.

 

[JMO8778]

robot,any reason for 12:45 specifically? thx.

 

[robotdog]

robot,any reason for 12:45 specifically? thx.

hi, i figured i would be asked that :crazy::crazy:

without going into too much detail, i mean i can but it is boring
but in a nutshell i calculated the time they got home with the time they ate pineapple and had tea and the time they went upstairs and the time that JBR would have had the accident in bed with wetting the bed.
and then calculated the time after that to do the staging etc etc etc

thats what i came up with
PLUS one day while driving and i was on the highway thinking about the case........the car in front of me had a license plate that sad... 1245 JB

silly but thats the truth

 

[robotdog]

in other words, certain times can be eliminated because there would not have been enough time

if they got up at 5 30 am well pretty safe to say it didnt happen at 4 30 AM

not enough time

if it happened at 11 00 ... too early the brother would have seen or heard things,

lots of factors - i did what jethro on beverly hillbillies did


what was the word he used......??:crazy:

 

[JMO8778]

in other words, certain times can be eliminated because there would not have been enough time

if they got up at 5 30 am well pretty safe to say it didnt happen at 4 30 AM

not enough time

if it happened at 11 00 ... too early the brother would have seen or heard things,

lots of factors - i did what jethro on beverly hillbillies did


what was the word he used......??:crazy:

LOL,ok thx...no clue there.

 

[robotdog]

LOL,ok thx...no clue there.

ciphering.:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

 

[DeeDee249]

"Assuming" the Ramseys did do it, has anyone ever wondered what their purpose would have been to leave JBR down in the basement, assuming the police would find her? I think when the Ramseys called the police they did not know that the police would get there and tell them to search the house. They probably thought the police would search the house and locate her. My point being why would JR decide to "act" like he found the body, when originally the Ramseys probably "assumed' the police would search the house and find her? Hope this makes sense.

Do you think he panicked, or wanted to contaminate the crime scene, etc.??

I think she was hidden there because the Rs really believed that after the 911 call the police would come, take some information, and then leave to begin a search. I think they may have called all their friends over to organize a search party. After everyone left, they planned to call police and say they "found" her- that she'd obviously been killed because they disobeyed the RN and called police.
JR may have gone to the basement the first time (when LA thought he'd gone to "get the mail"- even though the Rs had a mail slot in the door and he only had to walk to his front hall to get it) and possibly that's when the wrist cords were applied- yes, her arms would have nearly been in full rigor by then, which accounts for the ridiculous distance between her hands. He was continuing to stage the kidnapping, adding the arm restraints.
Then, when police did NOT leave the house, JR jumped at that opportunity LA gave him and ran back to the basement to "find" her, realizing he really couldn't wait any longer.

 

[angelwngs]

in other words, certain times can be eliminated because there would not have been enough time

if they got up at 5 30 am well pretty safe to say it didnt happen at 4 30 AM

not enough time

if it happened at 11 00 ... too early the brother would have seen or heard things,

lots of factors - i did what jethro on beverly hillbillies did


what was the word he used......??:crazy:

Ciphering

You know, nought from nought leaves nought...lol

 

[robotdog]

Ciphering

You know, naught from naught leaves naught...lol

ROFL ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my GOOOOOOOOOOOOODNESSSSSSS:crazy: