Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[Adler]

<snip>

For the record, it is NOT true that Shannan was seen running into the marsh. An OB resident, Justin Canning said that her footprints were seen in the sand going toward Gilgo Beach, and CPH was known to say that he had seen her "running at night near Oak Beach, looking both sick and distressed". At no time was it said that she was seen running into the marsh.

Did CPH see SG that night or not?

I don't want a "CPH was known to have said . . ." quote. When did he say, "I saw Shannan Gilbert running at night near Oak Beach, looking both sick and distressed"? Where did he say this? To whom?

 

[Adler]

Sorry for the neon green font when I responded to PB's response to my response, etc. It's hardly legible.

The paradoxical undressing and preterminal burrowing struck me as more plausible when I looked at the first photo that Truthspider posted. You've got the belongings 100 feet in the correct direction. You have the little canal, i.e., more h20 to run through and therefore more probability for hypothermia. One hundred feet onward, a mysterious little patch of disturbed ground. The only problem, I realize is that the remains were found all the way on the other side of the marsh, but I am not looking at that right now. If somebody presented a paradox/burrowing theory with these particular points of location and conditions, I might begin to buy it.

Thoughts?

The neon green font text below:



If it had been a pre-terminal dig, the distances would certainly make sense: a couple hundred feet from edge of marsh, the clothes and belongings; one hundred feet more, a pre-terminal dig site, perhaps abandoned as she perhaps continued across the marsh. Peter, what is that little splotchy sand spot in Truth's picture?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I hope you didnt think I was being sarcastic! I was asking a sincere qiestion...has scpd ever posted here...I hope I wasnt misunderstood.

I honestly couldn't tell you if SCPD reads or posts here or not. We (meaning WS posters) usually don't know who's who unless they out themselves on forum...which is very rare.

 

[truthspider]

See that black arrow superimposed on that first picture? The pointy end to the mysterious splotchy area. The blunt end is about where Shannan's belongings were found. 40.63964,-73.276287 The crane was sort of in the middle of these two points (again, refer to both ends of the black arrow in your photo)

If you look at the aerials of your splotchy patch of sand or disturbed earth, clicking back to google's 1994, and clicking forward, again, it looks like that is a water-logged spot, on some years a patch of water, certainly the vegetation on other google photos later looks different than immediate surroundings.

Thanks for taking time to analyze images of reality. I think it is important to keep ourselves grounded by discussing what we can see as opposed to debating another posters speculation. I have to ask though, what is the conclusion you are drawing from the images because I couldn't decipher your ultimate statement.

I have no patience for people who contemplate a girl digging a hole with her bare hands in the earth when she is running for her life. <MODSNIP> I have no idea what the exposed sand is from, but I know that it is not a natural occurrence because you can scan the entire marsh at the time of that photo and there isn't anything else like that. Bright white sand doesn't make it's way to the surface on it's own and receding vegetation doesn't expose white sand, not in the marsh anyway.

 

[truthspider]

Did CPH see SG that night or not?

I don't want a "CPH was known to have said . . ." quote. When did he say, "I saw Shannan Gilbert running at night near Oak Beach, looking both sick and distressed"? Where did he say this? To whom?

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04...ch-for-bodies-off-l-i-in-serial-killer-probe/

Gilbert, a prostitute from Jersey City, was last seen in May by Long Island doctor Peter Hackett, who said he saw Gilbert running at night near Oak Beach, looking both sick and distressed.

&#8220;These people need closure and we need to find this girl if she is alive,&#8221; he said.

If this journalist made a giant mistake, correctly quoting Hackett on the second statement, but incorrectly attributing the first statement to him, then CPH should sue CBS because it makes him look like a baby killing rapist and serial killer.

 

[hawkshaw]

I think you have a lot of insight as to why these murders remain unsolved! If I were you Id watch my back though...it doesnt appear youare making any froends with your insode knowledge...if anything you are making quite a few enemies of some pretty powerful people...thats pretty scary! I applaude you for speaking out!

Making enemies? If I haven't already done so. What is really sad is my story was given to the attention of a once high ranking member of Newsday. That person told the messenger he hoped I still had my pistol license. It is sad that a ranking member of a major newspaper would even have that run through his mind and not inquire further. This was long before Gilgo.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Not connected to the case excepting that their location is 100 feet from belongings?

Why not? It happens

 

[Peter Brendt]

Fellows I don’t want to argue about shrub leaves being pushed by the wind of a S&R drone. When heat goes up three helicopters soar over the area. Shrub leaves? Kidding me? Have you ever stood under a Blackhawk? It literally rocks your world.

There are companies out there offering Search & Rescue services for disaster sites. Much messier than the OB marshes.

After all, what is to be looked for down in the area is a 5 feet tall dead girl, lying on top of the ground. (not in a burlap sack and actually there?)

The only limitation that could be considered is the strong wind, but there will be windows for a smooth operation, and a video/photography drone is not the only way to look for a missing person. This is just one of the possibilities I come up with.

The point I am trying to make is that Shannan was never sought decently.

For example, we all know about the August 2010 visit to Colletti. A detective knocks on Coletti's door in August and gets scolded by the old timer.

So? The outcome? What was the conclusion? Anyone has an idea?

August 2010 SG Case was closed.

The absurdity in search for Shannan is a big mystery that deserves an explanation.

Hawkshaw was bold enough to point the arrows on SCPD, so here's my version of the events.

The following is NOT TRUE just my imagination.

First of all, I don’t buy the "dog training" story.

Yes, cadaver dogs are trained, but in special facilities. You don’t just pick up body parts and go for a secluded place to train your dog.

I've read several pages on the net regarding the topic. Some trainers say they use their own blood. But this is not the regular training, it is more like "keep the dog warm" kind of exercise.

I believe John Malia's was neither a training nor an exercise.

Megan and especially Amber were placed very close to the road. Many motorists pick up the smell, even recognize it, a few call the police. But LE just can’t process the information.

Too lazy to look into it? Or perhaps they value the difference between the smell from a "decomposing human" and a "decomposing hooker". Who knows?

A bit of information from these calls somehow makes its way to John Malia. He puts two and two together and the inauspicious discovery is made.

Malia's knowledge should be limited to something like "A hooker gone missing in the area" and no wonder he has no clue about a serial killer. So, when Malia finds the first body on Dec 11th, he believes he found Shannan.

At this point, Malia had to be satisfied. There was a complaint of a smell and there's the body, circle is closed.

Although, he may have thought Melissa's skeletal remains and the reported pungency of the stench don’t perfectly click, Malia ends the search, reports the finding, Blue gets the cracker.

SCPD jumps on the report that "Shannan is found". How can we say this? Because detectives show up at the Gilbert house and tell them "We are hundred percent sure it is Shannan" (48 Hours).

Dude, we're not jokin' around we are talking with percentages.

The discovery explains everything, it makes perfect sense and clears SCPD from any blame. She's unimaginably 5 miles away from the spot where she's last seen. That is why SCPD couldn’t find her despite the "exhausting efforts."

Anger "brews" in Dormer. Now, it's time to get the murderer, they instantly get JB's SUV for impounding.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...ch-Police-Need-Help-to-Make-ID-111812884.html

Everything goes for an SCPD success story. Except the body is not Shannan.

The jaw implant. Did they find it? Of course not. They don’t even know what they are looking for.

Spota writes the gap between Dec 11th and Dec 13th (2010) to rain. Could be. What I think is different.

At some point during the talks with the Gilbert family, the "implant" issue is discovered. A quick call is made, "Dudes, this girl we found has an implant?"

It should be a big oops moment, followed by a "Who's this then?"

Remember, still no one could have the idea about a serial killer.

One of the ways to answer "Who's this then?" question is to expand the search, hoping to find some clothing or better a purse with an ID in it. They do it and find three more bodies. Damn you Blue! Damn you Malia!

From that point on the GB4 discovery site becomes the best place to look for Shannan.

To tidy up the mess, they come up with the training story and "convince" John Malia to stick with it. Lucky for SCPD, Blue doesn’t talk.

Because if it's not "random training, it could turn to something like; SCPD = 1 Cop + 1 Dog + Donut Munchers.

There's a saying in my country, goes like this; "If you accidentally have an umbrella shoved up in the..., careful not to open it."

Now, it is December 2011, time to open the umbrella.

The success story started with Malia's discovery, winds up to be a nightmare.

Everybody knows, it is a great possibility that Shannan can be in the marshland, which was never thoroughly searched.

Shannan becomes the Angel sending four girls home. Was she murdered? Did she ever have her own burlap sack? I don't know.

Nice putting together. It's not the first time, a PD tries to close the eyes and just outlive such a story. It's not even the first time for SCPD. However, one detail is missing in this storyline:
At some point, Dormer goes in retirement and the question, everybody in secret was try to figure out becomes loud and semi-public: Who will get his old job. Now, Spota had ambitions. He had always ambitions as it looks. But what else would he need to be considered a viable candidate? Oh yes, some media attention. Nothing better to get this, but to start the search for SG again and actually find her. I think, SG's status changed from "hooker" to "political opportunity" at some point. Only, since Spota is with an SK case as far in over his head as Dormer was, he didn't calculate in, that SG maybe wouldn't be a victim of a serial killer. So he ended up with skeletal remains and no determined COD and the Gilbert family plus John Ray as his personal PITA and couldn't use the success to have started the search that found SG for his career. Well, that's what I think.

 

[Adler]

Thanks for taking time to analyze images of reality. I think it is important to keep ourselves grounded by discussing what we can see as opposed to debating another posters speculation. I have to ask though, what is the conclusion you are drawing from the images because I couldn't decipher your ultimate statement.

I have no patience for people who contemplate a girl digging a hole with her bare hands in the earth when she is running for her life. These people need to stop smoking angel dust, she wasn't heading to china or trying to smuggle contra across a border. I have no idea what the exposed sand is from, but I know that it is not a natural occurrence because you can scan the entire marsh at the time of that photo and there isn't anything else like that. Bright white sand doesn't make it's way to the surface on it's own and receding vegetation doesn't expose white sand, not in the marsh anyway.

You could not decipher an ultimate conclusion from me because as long as LE is withholding pertinent evidence, I reserve the right to withhold my ultimate conclusion, I reserve the right to suspend any hardfast position. Trust me, that, in itself, is a place of strength, not weakness.

In the meanwhile I'd like to entertain all possible scenarios, ideas, observations, and theories as I see fit. As I said before, the best I can do right now is take a socratic approach, not a debater's club approach where I need maintain a neat little theory wrapped up in a nice little package all ready to fire from a particular corner. Certainly, I am not the cheerleader type, either. That's not the way I think. Not the way I operate. It'd be a waste of time here for you, for me, for everybody.

Using the little time-guage on Google maps I looked up the following places and looked at the aerial photos of all of them going back to 1994:

40.624138,-73,37747
40.624423,-73,37661
40,63964,--73.276287
40,640115,-73.271427


What I see raises all kinds of questions. Little plots of white sand, patches of water coming and going, and in the first two items listed, two big X's (in the 1994 images) just east of where two of the GB-4 were found. Can you help me figure out what they are? How to read them?

 

[LINative13]

There is no evil political/SCPD scandal.

 

[truthspider]

There is no evil political/SCPD scandal.

I don't think so either, just an fyi.

 

[truthspider]

You could not decipher an ultimate conclusion from me because as long as LE is withholding pertinent evidence, I reserve the right to withhold my ultimate conclusion, I reserve the right to suspend any hardfast position. Trust me, that, in itself, is a place of strength, not weakness.

In the meanwhile I'd like to entertain all possible scenarios, ideas, observations, and theories as I see fit. As I said before, the best I can do right now is take a socratic approach, not a debater's club approach where I need maintain a neat little theory wrapped up in a nice little package all ready to fire from a particular corner. Certainly, I am not the cheerleader type, either. That's not the way I think. Not the way I operate. It'd be a waste of time here for you, for me, for everybody.

Using the little time-guage on Google maps I looked up the following places and looked at the aerial photos of all of them going back to 1994:

40.624138,-73,37747
40.624423,-73,37661
40,63964,--73.276287
40,640115,-73.271427


What I see raises all kinds of questions. Little plots of white sand, patches of water coming and going, and in the first two items listed, two big X's (in the 1994 images) just east of where two of the GB-4 were found. Can you help me figure out what they are? How to read them?

Thanks, and I completely appreciate your socratic approach. I am also interested in using goog earth to review the all of the pertinent locations of the case over the years. I don't think I saw the X's you are talking about, can you describe what you mean? Markings in the road? Bush? Grass? Something that was part of the earth or markings/writing on the digital images?

 

[hawkshaw]

There is no evil political/SCPD scandal.

Let me ask you some questions and hope for a truthful answer -lol.

Is there a certain ranking police official that has been widely rumored to have raped prostitutes while working in his patrol car? At least answer if it was a rumor.

Did he also hold another prostitute hostage after he had his way with her and when he left drunk and realized he left his weapon behind?

Was he charged by the PD for unlawful imprisonment, burglary, and related offenses.

did he fire his weapon out the window when the police arrived for the 911 call?

Is he known as a person that stays continually drunk? Or rumored as such?

Did he have his gun removed by a prostitute after he had his way with her in a patrol car and passed out. Is there anything to the rumor that she used his handcuffs to cuff him and took his weapon to the local precinct for safekeeping.

did he go to Thailand with his single male friend some years ago and caused quite a stir in the SCPD.

Any truth to the rumor he has sex orgies on Fire Island and the working gals are imported for that purpose.

Is there anything to the rumor that he took up with a very serious criminal's girlfriend, also a witness in one of his most famous cases. Is her name Courtney?

Was he also seeing another girl whose brother is sitting in a state prison after he introduced the brother to Suffolk's 'best known" attorney and got double the sentence he bargained for?

Was he at the golf outing you were so kind to inform me about? If so, was he drunk by the 5th hole. How about his Sugar Daddy. I assume he arrived at the first tee drunk.

Did he go see his old pal Glenn to make a contribution for that golf outing.

Do YOU cruise for company on the water as you do on land?

If any or all of the above is true I think you have to agree the case could be compromised by a scandal. Most big cases in suffolk usually are.

I am just asking you to CONFIRM the existence of such rumors, not the validity of them. Shouldn't be too hard to answer.

 

[truthspider]

40.624138,-73,37747
40.624423,-73,37661
40,63964,--73.276287
40,640115,-73.271427

two big X's (in the 1994 images) just east of where two of the GB-4 were found. Can you help me figure out what they are? How to read them?

there is also a visible cutout in the brush where the western most G4 was....
I think this has massive potential...

Well if that isn't the riddle of the day! WTF have to find out... think little spider brain think...

 

[BKS]

Thanks, and I completely appreciate your socratic approach. I am also interested in using goog earth to review the all of the pertinent locations of the case over the years. I don't think I saw the X's you are talking about, can you describe what you mean? Markings in the road? Bush? Grass? Something that was part of the earth or markings/writing on the digital images?

I wanted to post this for a long time. Now that some on this thread have been looking at the Google Earth photos, go to the date Sept. 19, 2010. On that date, there is a small fire burning in JB's yard beside the driveway. Also on that date, at the Manorville site where JT was found there is a fire burning and also at the home of one of my POI (not named in the media) who lives in Manorville.

 

[truthspider]

there is also a visible cutout in the brush where the western most G4 was....
I think this has massive potential...

Well if that isn't the riddle of the day! WTF have to find out... think little spider brain think...

ok my best guess right now is that the solid X is "Graticule Intersection"
and the dashed X is a "Datum Shift Tick". If that's right then I think the simple answer would be that the perp def used some sort of GPS device to decide where to do his dumps. Maybe so that he would be able to revisit them, or just so that he knew where they were exactly.

I think LE needs to confiscate any GPS devices that POI's may have or just subpoena the GPS data from the service provider if that data is stored and saved by the service provider I think you could really nail the perps balls to the wall with that evidence.

"Graticule Intersection", "Datum Shift Tick"
"These mark out lines of latitude and longitude on the surface of the Earth (sphere). These help give an indication of the 'distortion' of the map compared to 'real life' features on the curved surface of the Earth. "

 

[truthspider]

I wanted to post this for a long time. Now that some on this thread have been looking at the Google Earth photos, go to the date Sept. 19, 2010. On that date, there is a small fire burning in JB's yard beside the driveway. Also on that date, at the Manorville site where JT was found there is a fire burning and also at the home of one of my POI (not named in the media) who lives in Manorville.

I think that what appears to be fire is most likely just a white flare out as a result of some digital enhancement algo.

 

[Sillybilly]

Coletti

Nix that one Peter ... Coletti lives at the gate and could not have seen down to Anchor Way where SG was last seen and where her jacket (since lost by LE) was reportedly found.

If you've seen a map of where Coletti's house is in relation to the marsh and where SG was last seen on Anchor Way, it is not possible for him to have seen her down there. In earlier threads we discussed where GC was pointing when he said that she went into the reeds ... iirc, it was across the road from his house. Also, SG was reported to have knocked on another door after she ran from Coletti's, and Justin C indicated that SG's footprints were seen in the sand heading toward the beach.

from:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

Gilbert ran around the corner, Coletti said, and headed past the gate, which is the only well-lit area in the neighborhood. Instead of running out of the community and toward Ocean Parkway, she turned onto a road called Anchor Way, which led her past the group mailboxes and deeper into the neighborhood, toward the water.

The last known trace of Gilbert was a 911 call from a home at the end of Anchor Way, according to the neighbor briefed on the investigation. The neighbor said Gilbert’s sweater — or perhaps it was the jacket Diaz saw her wearing when she left — was found along that road.

After calling 911 that morning, Coletti said he went to the gatehouse, which is about a 30-second walk from his home, and waited until the police arrived. They didn’t arrive until about 45 minutes later, sometime before 6 a.m., according to neighbors and family.

Pak said he left around 6 a.m., after searching from "pitch black to sunny dawn" and never saw the police.

 

[BKS]

I think that what appears to be fire is most likely just a white flare out as a result of some digital enhancement algo.

Truth, you could be right. But white flare outs normally occur when an inexpensive lens is used, with time elapsed photos, or with some type of reflection. It could be a coincidence that there is a flare out at these three locations on that same date. But, the color doesn't look like white flare out. IMHO

 

[BKS]

Nix that one Peter ... Coletti lives at the gate and could not have seen down to Anchor Way where SG was last seen and where her jacket (since lost by LE) was reportedly found.

If you've seen a map of where Coletti's house is in relation to the marsh and where SG was last seen on Anchor Way, it is not possible for him to have seen her down there. In earlier threads we discussed where GC was pointing when he said that she went into the reeds ... iirc, it was across the road from his house. Also, SG was reported to have knocked on another door after she ran from Coletti's, and Justin C indicated that SG's footprints were seen in the sand heading toward the beach.

from:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

If Colletti waited at the gate, why didn't he see Pak leave?