Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

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It is not too much to ask that intelligent people conduct a disagreement over facts and interpretations without resorting to condescending, sarcastic barbs.

Stick to the facts supporting various interpretations or theories, and leave the personal jabs out of this thread.
 
I am curious if SG made or recieved or missed any calls after the 911 call...her driver said when he was looking for he he called her and ...umm..said umm..Shannon where are you. Did she answer that callor did it go to voicemail? Also...unless her phone battery died...why not call her boyfriend...I wouldve if I was afraid for my life...or at least keep calling 911...I would be running and hitting redial aybe she lost service or maybe she was afraid of him too. IDK just wondering Unless as some think the drugs...if there were any...and her bi polor...had her behaving like a lunatic...which I dont really buy.

What is the most common problem with untreated bipolar disorder? Spontaneous hysterical or paranoid outbreaks. So, even without drugs, she was prone to that. Now add drugs (even simply marijuana has a slight tendency to cause such behavior even in otherwise healthy persons, it's the famous "bad trip", if you go up the ladder, you find some prescription drugs, crack cocaine, cocaine, which have an even higher probability to cause such episodes, and even higher if taken together with alcohol).
So what we have here are two conditions, that would add up. So, we don't talk here about just a minimal statistical probability, we talk here abut something quite probably. And remember, what Hawkshaw wrote, SG was known to get out from other dates also in a hysterical state of mind.
 
Repeating YNot's warning:


It is not too much to ask that intelligent people conduct a disagreement over facts and interpretations without resorting to condescending, sarcastic barbs.

Stick to the facts supporting various interpretations or theories, and leave the personal jabs out of this thread.


Let's move on please.
 
I believe the SK is on a mission driven by a hatred of prostitutes. He might have been very hurt in life and feels that he was a victim of one (or more). He feels entitled to kill and gets satisfaction punishing and ridding society of them. He stalks and/or is acquainted with his victims. I think he carefully pre-plans his attacks but also is an opportunist if the circumstances allow. He is more comfortable with LI than AC which could explain the different “speed-kill” and clothed victims (or he had different motive for the AC4). He has more time and is very familiar with LI, probably lives, works, vacations, grew up, etc., and has connections there and in NYC.

The term “speed-kill” has been referred to in many posts as an essential characteristic in considering POI’s. IMO there are many things that can affect the LISK’s “speed-kill” that renders it not important and also results in changes in MO. Above is one example. Other instances are that all of his victims’ bodies have not been found, changes in his particular situation at the time, unexpected or inopportune problems arising, his own health, unforeseen emergencies and, even, the weather. Someone should not be ruled out as a POI because of his “speed-kill” or differences in MOs in serial killings.

“Paradoxical undressing” is another term that IMO does not apply to SG death that night. It is just too far-fetched and very, very rare in real life to be considered plausible in the SG case, especially since her belongings and clothes were found all together in one spot and her nude body so far away near Ocean Parkway. Taking into account all the events/stories/reports of that night, I believe that she was a victim of homicide. :moo:

As everyone on this board agrees, we just do not have any or enough important information to really properly sleuth the LISK case. Our own common sense and gut feelings are so far the best resources we have.


Note to Truthspider – You’re familiar with the residents of Oak Beach. I’ve had in the back of my mind that the only unbiased witness to the events of May 1-2 could be a newspaper delivery person. They deliver at my home between 5 and 6AM, 7 mornings a week. The timing would have been perfect to witness the happenings in Oak Beach that early morning. Any thoughts? Also their mailman would be aware of some of the goings on there also even though he/she would not have been delivering mail at that time.
 
This spot that I pointed out is in the area where they were digging with the crane. This aerial image was taken prior to any searches of the marsh. It's a splotch of white sand, which tells me someone dug a pretty deep hole, the first 12 - 15 inches is going to be top soil, brown, black and nutritious. 2 - 5 feet down you hit white sand like this.

How close to this spot were SG's belongings found?
 
How close to this spot were SG's belongings found?

Truthspider, please repost the photo taken before any search commenced of the plot of ground where the white square patch of sand it visible, and where the crane was later brought in to dig. What did they find there? How far was this from the belongings? Thanks.
 
I believe the SK is on a mission driven by a hatred of prostitutes. He might have been very hurt in life and feels that he was a victim of one (or more). He feels entitled to kill and gets satisfaction punishing and ridding society of them.

That would make him a house cleaner type, a sub species of the common Angel of Death type. And then his victimology would show cross-ethnicity because the primal selection pattern would be "prostitute". He also wouldn't have killed MBB, since she was at the bus terminal, unless he would have stalker her for a while, which is pretty unlikely because she came only in the morning to NYC.

He stalks and/or is acquainted with his victims. I think he carefully pre-plans his attacks but also is an opportunist if the circumstances allow.

Translated, he is either at the same time organized and not or he is in his peak phase and at the same time already pretty down the spiral. For a stlaker, stalking is part of the ritual. It's nothing, he would give up so easily, just for an opportunity strike.


He is more comfortable with LI than AC which could explain the different “speed-kill” and clothed victims (or he had different motive for the AC4).

That's more than a stretch, that's like ripping the fabric of the universe. And all, to find a construct that explains on a mere formal level a connection between AC and LI. I mean, we talk here not about a small speed up in killings, we talk here about factor 25. The kill speed in AC is at least 25 times as high as the one for LISK. This has nothing to do with feeling comfortable unless you claim, LISK holds his victims for about 4 months each. And by the way, the term is "kill-speed", not "speed-kill"
And a different motive? SKs kill for a reason. That reason is what makes them SKs. All other reasons would be necessity kills to avoid connection. There can't be another motive because another motive would take the motive from him, that made him an SK in the first place.

He has more time and is very familiar with LI, probably lives, works, vacations, grew up, etc., and has connections there and in NYC.

He lives on a short timeline there because he is most of the year not there. If he would be, the murders wouldn't be concentrated on the time July to September. That gives him 12 weeks. In that time, he has to find his victims, stalk them, snatch them, rape them and drop them.

The term “speed-kill” has been referred to in many posts as an essential characteristic in considering POI’s.

Again, the term is kill-speed. And it's part of a profile, it's nothing that can be directly applied to any POI since you don't know if a POI has killed, how often and in what frequency over time.

IMO there are many things that can affect the LISK’s “speed-kill” that renders it not important and also results in changes in MO.

Well, that is your constitutional right.

Above is one example. Other instances are that all of his victims’ bodies have not been found, changes in his particular situation at the time, unexpected or inopportune problems arising, his own health, unforeseen emergencies and, even, the weather.

You didn't look at LISK's kill graph. He was in the ramp up. So other old bodies will be in other parts of the country, newer bodies than 2010 will be in LI and wherever he spent the winter. There is nothing to indicate LISK changed his MO and even less, he changed his signature except for the unexplainable urge to construct artificially a connection between AC and LI.


Someone should not be ruled out as a POI because of his “speed-kill” or differences in MOs in serial killings.

NO POI can be ruled out based on KILL-SPEED because KILL-SPEED can't be applied to POIs in the first place. I slowly get the impression, you misinterpret the term. KILL-SPEED is the number of kills per time unit for a serial killer. For example 4 in 8 weeks. It can't be applied to a POI, since you don't know whether this person has killed, how often and in what time. This is the reason why I didn't dismiss POIs on that base, because it's impossible.

“Paradoxical undressing” is another term that IMO does not apply to SG death that night. It is just too far-fetched and very, very rare in real life to be considered plausible in the SG case, especially since her belongings and clothes were found all together in one spot and her nude body so far away near Ocean Parkway.

Mathematically, we call a probability of over 50% the "most likely" because no other scenario can beat that 50%. However, that is only valid as long as not "beliefs" and "bias" are involved in the arguments, because they don't care about facts anyway. I take it, you didn't follow the mild-hypothermia discussion?

Taking into account all the events/stories/reports of that night, I believe that she was a victim of homicide. :moo:

The Constitution entitles us to have own opinions and express them, The Constitution doesn't ask to bring scientific arguments, reason or even check on the technical possibility. So well, it's your opinion.

As everyone on this board agrees, we just do not have any or enough important information to really properly sleuth the LISK case. Our own common sense and gut feelings are so far the best resources we have.

Speak for yourself, I disagree.
I told, in the radio show and in mails to SCPD, they would find him on the traffic cam tapes. But SCPD didn't react, now the tapes are probably deleted. I posted in the "local help" thread a description of the place where to find him (valid till mid of September) and in what areas to look for that place. So yes, I think, we have enough to catch him, we only don't have enough on LE to make them move.

Note to Truthspider – You’re familiar with the residents of Oak Beach. I’ve had in the back of my mind that the only unbiased witness to the events of May 1-2 could be a newspaper delivery person. They deliver at my home between 5 and 6AM, 7 mornings a week. The timing would have been perfect to witness the happenings in Oak Beach that early morning. Any thoughts? Also their mailman would be aware of some of the goings on there also even though he/she would not have been delivering mail at that time.

So, you exclude Coletti from "unbiased witness"? The ME? SCPD? Especially the officer who arrived first at Oak Beach? Dispatch? They are all part of the conspiracy and therefore "biased"? Fine, ask the mailman what he saw or the paper boy, but in the end, if they don't say, what you want to hear, will you add them into your big box of "biased" witnesses too? Just asking?
 
Truthspider, please repost the photo taken before any search commenced of the plot of ground where the white square patch of sand it visible, and where the crane was later brought in to dig. What did they find there? How far was this from the belongings? Thanks.

I am not sure exactly where her belongings were found, I would say the crane was within 100 feet of this spot, but I haven't done a proper analysis. All I know is LE really demolished Hackett's "conservation area" lol. I wonder if that pissed him off. I wonder if that tractor device crushed his bat houses like a bug. No light treading around back there.

*Note the image with the white sand was a google maps image that pre-dated the SCPD search of the area.

"how should we search the marsh boss?" - lackey

"bring in da bulldozer and really fak it up back dere, kanservation area huh, and watch ta see if it makes Fire Marshall Bill go ballistic.." - Dormer
 

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Truthspider, please repost the photo taken before any search commenced of the plot of ground where the white square patch of sand it visible, and where the crane was later brought in to dig. What did they find there? How far was this from the belongings? Thanks.

Cranes don't dig. If, then they drill. And there is no fact, there was actual digging or drilling, so please stop to make the "dig" story look like proven fact.
 
Funny thing, but I can't find the picture with the bucket. All I see posted by you are pictures of those white patches, which can be, given the thin layer of brown soil be much easier caused by heavy gear (you remember, SCPD brough heavy gear in to clean off the brushes there). For which by they way, they used the crane.
So please, repost the bucket picture. And reread Tugela's posts about angle of light and so on.
 
Cranes don't dig. If, then they drill. And there is no fact, there was actual digging or drilling, so please stop to make the "dig" story look like proven fact.

Do you have any proof there was no digging? I watched them put the bucket to turf and I already attached the images. Images, reality, things that actually happened. Not hot air.

There was a live video stream on News12, for us locals to watch. They used this back hoe to dig. I don't know what they were digging up exactly. Aside from the backhoe there were many officers with rakes and shovels. They were digging. <modsnip> I saw digging when I watched the live feed.
 

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What is the most common problem with untreated bipolar disorder? Spontaneous hysterical or paranoid outbreaks. So, even without drugs, she was prone to that. Now add drugs (even simply marijuana has a slight tendency to cause such behavior even in otherwise healthy persons, it's the famous "bad trip", if you go up the ladder, you find some prescription drugs, crack cocaine, cocaine, which have an even higher probability to cause such episodes, and even higher if taken together with alcohol).
So what we have here are two conditions, that would add up. So, we don't talk here about just a minimal statistical probability, we talk here abut something quite probably. And remember, what Hawkshaw wrote, SG was known to get out from other dates also in a hysterical state of mind.

Last sentence. Hawkshaw said NO such thing. What I said was that retired detective Vincent Stephan's letter to Newsday SAID when he interviewed others that drove SG to and from 'dates', those drivers said she often left the premises in a hysterical manner.

Not only did I not write it, the suggestion that I did write it changes the whole meaning of what I was trying to say in that post.
 
Do you have any proof there was no digging? I watched them put the bucket to turf and I already attached the images. Images, reality, things that actually happened. Not hot air.

There was a live video stream on News12, for us locals to watch. They used this back hoe to dig. I don't know what they were digging up exactly. Aside from the backhoe there were many officers with rakes and shovels. They were digging. <modsnip> I saw digging when I watched the live feed.

Picture one shows no hole. If at all, the plant growth on the surface appears to be disturbed, which is consistent, with what SCPD told the media.

Picture two shows officers with showels. If you look closely, you can see, they use those shovels to lift branches and look under moss. No signs of actual digging in this photo. That is again consistent with what SCPD told the media.

Picture three shows on the right side a blue backhoe. In this picture, the machine is still parked, the bucket rests on the ground. No indication of digging, but one thing has to be clear: If that thing moves on it's tracks, it will disturb the surface and thus leave white spots, at least, if the brown soil layer is as thin as you claim.

Picture four shows the backhoe in motion, By the color, it appears to be the same. This proves, a relative machine on tracks moved over a pretty thin layer of brown soil and therefore left, if it moved often enough, white spots without any digging. Thanks for delivering evidence that shows us, the whole digging theory is more than wobbly.

Picture five shows a group of officers. No holes in the surroundings, no backhoe in the picture. Since we don't know whether this photo was actually taken before the heavy gear was brought in, I am not really sure, what this picture is supposed to prove.

So bottom line: No pictures of anything digging, neither the backhoe nor a crane. No holes in the ground. No indication of any kind of dig work. All is consistent with what LE said, they did, bringing in heavy gear (which included the backhoe in the pics). Congratulations, your pictures have proven, this whole digging business is just unsubstantiated rumor! Now that is a step forward, isn't it?
 
Last sentence. Hawkshaw said NO such thing. What I said was that retired detective Vincent Stephan's letter to Newsday SAID when he interviewed others that drove SG to and from 'dates', those drivers said she often left the premises in a hysterical manner.

Not only did I not write it, the suggestion that I did write it changes the whole meaning of what I was trying to say in that post.

Did you forget point #7 in the what we know posts?
 
Did you forget point #7 in the what we know posts?

<modsnip> IMO He's saying that detectives analysis of the 911 call is BS. What other driver did he interview? Her boyfriend and former driver Alex Diaz?
 
<modsnip> IMO He's saying that detectives analysis of the 911 call is BS. What other driver did he interview? Her boyfriend and former driver Alex Diaz?

But then, he headlined that one "known facts", which was the reason I jumped in over there and pointed out, some known facts couldn't even be known by the persons, he claimed have said so. But you are right in one point, those "known facts" in this post were at least a little fishy <modsnip>. And the point was anyway, he wrote that and later denied to have written it.
 
It's a small thing, but a witness said, "We saw her footprints in the sand." Who is "we" (just Mr Canning and his mother?) Where were these footprints? When exactly did they see them? Would this mean "bare" feet, or shoe prints? Was she already running barefoot before she got to the marsh (aka thicket/impenetrable environment)? If she was already barefoot there is no way she held on to BOTH shoes (especially if they were the ballet-type slip-on) as she continued to run only to put them BOTH where they were found. This is as implausible as her pants falling off. (jmo ya' know :))

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/serial_slay_house_raid_icUSVNRrW8naxbU8gaK5AJ


** About the digging (not related to the footprints!). I see a backhoe in the photos. Isn't a backhoe used to... uhmmm "dig"??
 
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