Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

[siriunsun]

He has no involvement with the crime?

Failing a lie detector test and becoming an "unreliable witness" to the abduction in 1975, kept the LE from searching the 4714 Baltimore Avenue house. Afterall, his testimony was proven false and useless, just another mercenary out for the reward money. <modsnip>
Sounds like a stellar move to me…….. for career criminals.

House searches may yield mtDNA or may not for the upcoming trial, but must withstand admissibility and discovery to be considered. I wonder how Mr. Anderson, Attorney, will portray his client to the grand jury.

Even a fingerprint can be found forty years later, as can hair, both with and without roots. Ditto fingernails. One must remember that Richard III was recently found buried under a parking lot in England, when no one thought his grave would ever be found. Despite the age of the remains, his DNA told a remarkable story. I think the persons of interest in Sheila and Katherine's case should just shut up and cooperate.

 

[steveP120]

Failing a lie detector test and becoming an "unreliable witness" to the abduction in 1975, kept the LE from searching the 4714 Baltimore Avenue house. Afterall, his testimony was proven false and useless, just another mercenary out for the reward money. <modsnip>

.

We don't know what Lloyd told the police in 1975, but I doubt if anyone, even a criminal, liar, lunatic, or homeless person, told the police he saw the girls at a specific house, the police would have failed to check out the location.

My GUESS is that Lloyd told the police 1) his actual seeing the girls at the mall, 2) what he read in the paper, but with claims that he saw it himself, and 3) maybe some vague embellishments - all vague things the police could NOT check in any way except give him a lie-detector test. The police did take Lloyd seriously enough to give him a lie detector test.

 

[STANDREID]

I wonder exactly what part of the lie detector test Welch failed. If he failed when answering the question about who killed the girls then surely police would have been able to get a warrant to search his vehicles, his residence and every place he'd been.

 

[foureyes]

I wonder exactly what part of the lie detector test Welch failed. If he failed when answering the question about who killed the girls then surely police would have been able to get a warrant to search his vehicles, his residence and every place he'd been.

The point I am trying to make with this house is, at one time or another Lloyd, Helen, his deceased step- mother, his two younger step brothers, ex-wife of younger
step-brother, all, at one time or another, lived at xxxx Baltimore. -Public information, no big secret, grand jury testimony is sealed now.

LE has an interest in this house and Richard A. Welch house(s). Also this year, Lloyd Welch Jr has implicated his own father, past residence- xxxx More importantly, LLW going to the police in 1975, was a deterrent purposely planned, is my belief. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. My quest here is to raise awareness . This forum seems to be dissipating, glad to see new input here. Thanks for your post.

QUOTE: An intelligent person can rationalize anything, a wise person doesn't try.” Jen Knox

 

[siriunsun]

I wonder exactly what part of the lie detector test Welch failed. If he failed when answering the question about who killed the girls then surely police would have been able to get a warrant to search his vehicles, his residence and every place he'd been.

I've wondered which questions indicated deception, too. Lloyd had no vehicles to search, and while he and his girlfriend mooched off of various relatives, he didn't rent or own any of the homes where he stayed. Getting search warrants for houses was a lot more difficult during the 70's, as well. The mind set about police and gestapo tactics was a little bit different than it is now. I think Four-eyes is on to something in the postulation that LLW going to the police and giving a statement in an alleged attempt to collect reward money might have been a planned ruse. Who better to make statements than a person who owns no vehicles or other property to search?

 

[steveP120]

I wonder exactly what part of the lie detector test Welch failed. If he failed when answering the question about who killed the girls then surely police would have been able to get a warrant to search his vehicles, his residence and every place he'd been.

I am pretty sure that the reason the police failed to search any property related to Lloyd Welch or to investigate him in any way was because as the police claim, they failed to identify Lloyd as a suspect in 1975, despite the Long-hair-man sketch that most people think is Lloyd.

Keep in mind that in 1975, Lloyd just turned 18 and had no adult criminal record known to the cops; the interview the usual suspects (child molesters in this case) failed. Also the police may have had tunnel vision on tape-recorder-man, who failed to come forward (either because he was involved with the Lyon sisters or he was a lesser pervert).

 

[zensiert]

... I think Four-eyes is on to something in the postulation that LLW going to the police and giving a statement in an alleged attempt to collect reward money might have been a planned ruse. Who better to make statements than a person who owns no vehicles or other property to search?

LLW2 went back to the scene of the crime, like a lot of criminals do. There is a greater understanding of this behavior by LE in this day and age, and depending on the type of crime, LE will often conduct surveillance for a while at a crime scene to see who shows up. They will also take a very close look at any persons who come forward offering to "help." Realistically, there was no chance that LLW2 would be able to collect the reward money by giving up himself and his relatives. He went back in an attempt to see if he could find out how much LE knew about the case, and to throw out some red herrings.

 

[siriunsun]

I am pretty sure that the reason the police failed to search any property related to Lloyd Welch or to investigate him in any way was because as the police claim, they failed to identify Lloyd as a suspect in 1975, despite the Long-hair-man sketch that most people think is Lloyd.

Keep in mind that in 1975, Lloyd just turned 18 and had no adult criminal record known to the cops; the interview the usual suspects (child molesters in this case) failed. Also the police may have had tunnel vision on tape-recorder-man, who failed to come forward (either because he was involved with the Lyon sisters or he was a lesser pervert).

Could Lloyd have gotten his hair cut, or put it under a hat before visiting the police?

 

[Schipperke]

08-03-2015, 03:47 PM

#215​

RichardLewis

Former Member

Join DateNov 2014Posts96​

Relatives allegedly tie Richard Welch to Lyon sisters murder

http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/2015...rder/31059729/

...The relative says Welch told him he and other family members sexually assaulted the girls on pool tables in Welch's home in Hyattsville, and that they disposed of their bodies on Taylors Mountain in Bedford County, Virginia. The relative also allegedly told cold case detectives that a family vehicle was used to take the girls from Hyattsville to Bedford.

Thomas Welch, Jr., another relative of Richard Welch, told investigators he saw two blonde girls in Welch's pool room on Easter in 1975. Welch is not commenting now, but detectives say he told them that he believes the girls were the Lyon sisters...

"Pool room" with pool table(s) ? Sounds like RAW1 had his own man-cave, where God only knows what really went on there. LE would probably like to be able to analyze those pool tables for evidence if they still existed. Also, I'm not aware that LE ever searched the old house that RAW rented. That has not been in the news if it ever occurred. The house is supposedly vacant and in disrepair.
It's been stated that RAW's older brother Luther Bell Welch a.k.a. "Luke" lived with him at the house on 42nd Place in Hyattsville. Could LBW be the deceased relative that RAW1's attorney Carter Garrett referred to when he said "I think police would be better suited to look at some of the deceased members of the family."


Information in this post has always stuck with me. In 1975, the family, which included a now-deceased male member, lived in a house with a detached garage for which I can find no record of search. If the girls (or one girl) were seen in 1975 in RAW's house, it would have had to have been in this house and not the one RAW has now which was searched a year or so ago. The poster is now a "Former Member" along with another poster whose postings were bizarre to say the least. Apparently, I missed postings from both of them around the same time which led to both of them disappearing from WS, and I noted an Administrator posting saying that posters are to assume that if something like that takes place it is for a sound reason. While this is my first post, I have been watching this forum for a much longer time, I am convinced that LE must have a great deal of information which is being held "not for public consumption." From other post here, I am thinking that since the charged person, LLW2, never official resided in this house, it will not be legally "searchable" unless RAW is charged or they have other suitable information to obtain a search warrant.

While the wait is frustrating, I hope LE is covering all bases to get to the truth. The last thing I want to see is a case tried and closed with technicalities which make finding the truth and/or seeking justice impossible, AKA Caylee Anthony Case.

I hope I am not breaking any rules with this post.​

 

[steveP120]

LLW2 went back to the scene of the crime, like a lot of criminals do. There is a greater understanding of this behavior by LE in this day and age, and depending on the type of crime, LE will often conduct surveillance for a while at a crime scene to see who shows up. They will also take a very close look at any persons who come forward offering to "help." Realistically, there was no chance that LLW2 would be able to collect the reward money by giving up himself and his relatives. He went back in an attempt to see if he could find out how much LE knew about the case, and to throw out some red herrings.

Unfortunately, the scene of the crime is huge, either an entire plazza/mall with thousands of visitors each day, or the mall and their walk home, with maybe a stop anywhere in town - unless it can be narrowed down to maybe a few hundred yards of road and path through woods - which it never has with certainty and the police now doubt was where the abduction occurred.

Lloyd hung out at Wheaton Plaza, likely doing petty crimes such as shoplifting, drugs/drinking and mingling with friends or an occasional girl/victim, so Lloyd going back to the mall would not be so unusual.

Assuming Lloyd was the Long-hair man, Lloyd did have some contact with the girls, and IF he was not involved in the crime, either he may have seen something such as other men looking at the girls or he may have embellished his story with what he read in the paper to try to claim the reward.

I agree that if Lloyd was guilty, there would be no way that Lloyd could collect the reward, but Lloyd being an idiot might have thought he could or try to deflect blame on tape-recorder-man.

I have no evidence to back it up, I think there is a good chance Lloyd was making up tales, bragging to kids at the mall, word reached a security guard who eventually dragged Lloyd to the police. Lloyd's own step-mother and other family members did not believe him when they were watching TV, heard of the reward, and Lloyd said he was going to collect the reward. Lloyd could be the boy who cried wolf so often that nobody believed him, or it could be just another lie.

 

[steveP120]

Could Lloyd have gotten his hair cut, or put it under a hat before visiting the police?

It is fairly common for criminals afraid of being identified by an eyewitness to change their hair style and grow or shave facial hair.

On the subject of search warrants in 1975, I doubt that the police would even need a search warrant if anyone told them the girls were being held, alive, at a certain address. This happens often in domestic violence cases, where if a someone is being beaten, the police are going in without a search warrant.

Regardless if the police thought they needed a search warrant (for example if there was ONLY evidence at a location and NOT a crime in progress), I highly doubt the investigation stalled in 1975 because of problems getting a search warrant.

 

[Schipperke]

If the comment about a search warrant is related to my post, I am not talking about searches being made in 1975. I am talking about the search warrants NOW for the place where family lived in 1975. The poster I referred to, said he did not know of any searches of the actual residence of RAW in 1975 (the house where RAW lived with his now-deceased brother at the time the sisters went missing). In 1975, RAW was not even known as a possible person of interest.

8-3-2015 Post #215 by RichardLewis, ". . .Pool room" with pool table(s) ? Sounds like RAW1 had his own man-cave, where God only knows what really went on there. LE would probably like to be able to analyze those pool tables for evidence if they still existed. Also, I'm not aware that LE ever searched the old house that RAW rented. That has not been in the news if it ever occurred. The house is supposedly vacant and in disrepair. It's been stated that RAW's older brother Luther Bell Welch a.k.a. "Luke" lived with him at the house on 42nd Place in Hyattsville. Could LBW be the deceased relative that RAW1's attorney Carter Garrett referred to when he said "I think police would be better suited to look at some of the deceased members of the family."

According to his post, in August 2015, the residence was "vacant and in disrepair," but I believe the owner(s) will still have to give permission unless a search warrant is issued to search that house today like they did just weeks ago for the house where LLW lived with his parents in 1975. Tax records show that the owners are Thomas and Irene Willoughby of Mt. Rainier, MD, and they have a plethora of court records over run-down properties in Prince George's County, MD. I hope it doesn't get demolished before the house and the garage get searched.

As far as I can tell, in 1975 LE had no indication to be concerned about any residence to search unless they were able to identify TRM. They were looking mostly in the home neighborhood of the girls from what I read, and then two weeks later for a station wagon in VA.

If LE felt they could possibly find something in the other house, maybe they should find a way into this one to search as well.

 

[foureyes]

Your post is interesting!


"Hyattsville's Vacant Houses"
-Patch January 9,2012
Link to complete 2012 Article below:
http://patch.com/maryland/hyattsvil...nt-houses-foreclosure-abandonment-d0699422fa4

"What About Willoughby
If you’ve lived in Hyattsville long enough, you might remember the Willoughby house at 42nd Place and Jefferson Street.
During the summer of 1997, then councilman Douglas Dudrow (Ward 1) and Hyattsville residents David Levy and William Haynes protested at a business owned by Thomas and Irene Willoughby, the owners of the house, which at the time had a collapsing porch and had received dozens of notices from code enforcement officials. It had been vacant for seven years, …..
Many of the needed repairs were made by 2000."

 

[Schipperke]

<modsnipz>
Foureyes post #368 12/15/2015 “During the summer of 1997, then councilman Douglas Dudrow (Ward 1) and Hyattsville residents David Levy and William Haynes protested at a business owned by Thomas and Irene Willoughby, the owners of the house, which at the time had a collapsing porch and had received dozens of notices from code enforcement officials. It had been vacant for seven years, ….. Many of the needed repairs were made by 2000.”

This is interesting because it shows that Willoughby’s have owned the property at least since 1997 and probably at least since 1990 (since the Councilmen were holding them responsible for those years). SUPPOSITION—I DID NOT VERIFY AS FACT: If it had been vacant for seven years in 1997, he might have been the owner when the Welch Family lived there. According to RichardLewis August 2015 post #215, property is in disrepair again. This link to Legals in Prince George’s Post Dated 11/6-12/2014, seems to indicate that the Willoughbys have passed but I have not had time to check. Post also includes other Willoughby family members and a Joint Venture (corporation) as having an interest in the properties in the legal notice http://www.pgpost.com/files/97411527.pdf

Since Willoughby lives(d) on Eastern Avenue in Mt. Rainier, there is no indication as to whether or not this house on 42[SUP]nd[/SUP] Place has been lived in at all since the Welch’s moved out or what it has been used for. Seems to me I read in another post that RAW moved to the new home sometime in the mid 80’s (I have not verified this as fact but someone here may remember reading it as well), but if his brother died in 1984 it could fit together (supposition again-not fact) If the 42[SUP]nd[/SUP] Place house has been sold, it is probably going to undergo some kind of change if it hasn’t already. My thoughtss run along the line that the Willoughby’s and the RAW’s may have been friends and if the property was not being used, some things could have been stored there all these years or there could have been DNA evidence. Another lightning strike to the brain as I write this—is the PG POST Legal notice about the same time as the announcement of LLW2 and RAW as persons of interest? If something was there. . .

 

[foureyes]

Schipperke, Your excellent posts #369, PMs, are solidly searched, but how do you confirm "Richard's mother and brother deceased lived upstairs (around the time of the abduction), Where's that newspaper article in post #805 in the early thread -Lloyd is a Person of Interest?

Yes,<name> certainly has had many LLCs . LE researchs this, Its their job. Please consider posting your theory to the County LE tipline MD or VA to review your assertion that this house may hold evidence. Submit it anonymously if you desire.

The investigation needs the public's contributions such as your research today. Thank you for your in depth research and concern. I do not know who you are.

Hyattsville "Life and Times" past 2014 October 2nd and 9th articles did print -Three generations of the family lived in Hyattsville at the time, with other branches of the family in Delaware, Virginia and Tennessee" but I can NOT find ……"Richard's mother and a brother (now deceased) lived upstairs in the duplex". Is this from personal knowledge or what is this statement based on?

You have a valid wish to see this vacant house searched. But who's in the position to obtain a search warrant? Also when the general public reads this, vacant XXXX 42 Pl. may unfortunately be vandalized, the downside of criminal activity mixing with publicity. Reverse searches are not mind boggling for them. Just another reason to offer your research to LE. Many have failed to notice what you are presenting, and you have connected a dot. Again please submit it to LE.

Hotel California ......You can check out but you can never leave.

 

[Schipperke]

I don't know anyone here or any of the family except through WS and public news. I was a young mother when these girls went missing in 1975, and I have lived my whole life within 15 or so miles of where all this stuff went, and is, going down. I don't know anything, but reading these threads and news and watching news on the case formed questions in my mind even if I don't remember exactly where I got what information. When 2 posters I have found interesting suddenly became "Former" at about the same time and I missed "why it happened," I made a decision to post some of my questions. Now I am not sure if I have helped anything or actually caused harm by posting, even though I did not give any information that was not already available to the public if they put 2+2 together. I am not sure who did what, I just want to see this case solved. I was certainly much more comfortable being "just a reader" waiting to see if anyone else had the same questions I had.

 

[siriunsun]

I don't know anyone here or any of the family except through WS and public news. I was a young mother when these girls went missing in 1975, and I have lived my whole life within 15 or so miles of where all this stuff went, and is, going down. I don't know anything, but reading these threads and news and watching news on the case formed questions in my mind even if I don't remember exactly where I got what information. When 2 posters I have found interesting suddenly became "Former" at about the same time and I missed "why it happened," I made a decision to post some of my questions. Now I am not sure if I have helped anything or actually caused harm by posting, even though I did not give any information that was not already available to the public if they put 2+2 together. I am not sure who did what, I just want to see this case solved. I was certainly much more comfortable being "just a reader" waiting to see if anyone else had the same questions I had.

I don't think you caused any harm by posting. Lloyd Lee Welch has been charged with murder, and that would never have happened without significant evidence, especially after Casey Anthony. This case has elicited quite a bit of publicity over the years, and it will not be tried without massive media coverage. If the prosecution has made a mistake, it will not be hidden easily, as it could be in an unknown case about which no one had heard. No prosecutor wants to establish a record of losing trials, especially murder trials.

 

[foureyes]

Crowdsourcing may have solved a 20-year-old cold case - The Washington Post by Caitlin Dewey , March 10 2015
justifies the obsession or need to communicate through social media for cold cases. ( Or maybe I am just trying to rationalize my obsession right through the holidays.)

I appreciate new members contributing , I did not mean to be critical. A fresh look at a subject holds clues. I believe Former member RichardLewis's statement about "the Willoughby house" is based on CrCurrie's post-same thread. There is hearsay, and there are substantiated facts, Please reply CrCurrie! you started it. please finish it -Did Richard A Welch POI actually live
in the Willoughby house in the 70's? If it is in the Hyattsville Life and Times, which issue?

 

[crcurrie]

Please reply CrCurrie! you started it. please finish it

Okay, since I've been called out by name, I'll reply to some of the questions and suppositions in the thread above:

1. Thomas Willoughby has owned the house at 5xxx 42nd Place for several decades, since before the Lyons sisters were abducted.

2. Richard and Patricia Welch rented the downstairs unit of the house during the mid-1970s and probably up to the time they purchased their home on 41st Place in 1985. The upstairs unit, during the mid-1970s, was rented by "Granny" Welch and her son Luther (Luke). Luke was killed in a motorcycle accident in 1984.

3. Lloyd Lee Welch Jr. claims he saw Richard raping the Lyons girls in the garage of this house at 5xxx 42nd Place.

4. The house has been vacant for at least 20 years, but probably had other tenants after the Welches left. City and county officials have been in the house many times over the past couple of decades, due to complaints about its dilapidated condition and the owner's refusal to make repairs.

5. Thomas Willoughby is still alive but does not live at the Eastern Avenue address listed on the tax records. That property was sold at a tax auction earlier this year. However, he still owns the property on 42nd Place, which he also does not live in.

6. Regarding the late Luke Welch, I have no knowledge that he has ever been a person of interest in this case. I have been told by one person who knew him that he never married and never was known to have a girlfriend. That, in spite of his extremely good looks (as shown in family photos).

Hope that information clarifies some of the speculation above.

 

[Schipperke]

crcurrie, I didn't think there was anything about this case at this point that would "shock" me, but the appearance of your post and its frankness has. It certainly adds to the "public" information detail without answering the ultimate questions about what did or did not happen in 1975. Property standard inspections are not the same as a forensic search of the property. It also leads to other questions (at least in my mind) which may or may not be important. If you have more information, I hope you will share it with LE (if you have not already done so) as quickly as possible.