Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

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Schipperke,

Please don't go away! Your sleuthing and questioning has opened this thread back up for me! For example, I had completely forgotten about the 42nd Place house. Your thoughts and questions make good sense, and I thank you for finding this thread! You rock!

I don't know where Richard and TheFirstMan went; they both had their preferred culprit for the murder of these sisters. Both posters also popped up in another thread I follow: the disappearance and presumed murder of three girls in Fort Worth, Texas, in December of 1974. I also think I spied the same Richard in the Jason Callahan/Grateful Doe identification threads (I certainly hope it was him).

Please, please continue posting, thinking, sleuthing, and asking!

lgr
 
Schipperke said:
Beginning to look like my questions go too deep for comfort. But without questions and answers, the questions begin to dead end. How do you sleuth dead ends without sharing questions and answers. But, all my questions came from items posted previously on WS threads. I am not sure if I should apologize to those who get snipped or just go away.
Click to expand...

The Boston Marathon bombing is now a case study in the successes (getting tips to the police) and failures (people wrongly accused by the mob) of crowd sourcing.
There maybe be an advertising page first, but this Forbes article summarizes the case:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarunwa...g-the-boston-marathon-bombings-investigation/

Here are the first few paragraphs:

All it took was a couple of hours for high-school sophomore Salah Barhoum to have his entire world turned upside down. Up until that point, he was best known for being a standout athlete. But suddenly, through no fault of his own, he was being followed by strange men convinced that he was responsible for the heinous bombings at the Boston Marathon that happened just days earlier. The FBI had not named any suspects yet, but his face was already on the cover of the NY Post, labeled as a person of interest.

Unfortunately for Barhoum, and well over a dozen others, they were the victims of shoddy detective work – their identities were broadcast publicly while they were accused of crimes they had nothing to do with and maligned by the national media as terrorists. In reality, Barhoum and others were not even being investigated by the authorities involved with the case. Instead, they had been outed by anonymous commenters on Reddit and 4Chan, who believed they were guilty based upon their clothes and appearance. What started as an atypical request by the FBI to gather evidence from the public quickly morphed into a much uglier digital witch hunt, one where the crowd’s fears, prejudices, and suspicions were given credence, while guilt and innocence were doled out based on shreds of circumstantial evidence.

In the four days, three hours, and nine minutes between the detonation of the first bomb and the Boston Police Department tweeting that the final suspect had been captured, a new approach for conducting crowdsourced investigations was established.

Although media outlets have been quick to lump all of the crowdsourced efforts together, there were two very different processes occurring which proved to have drastically different outcomes: crowdsourced intelligence gathering – a massive success — and crowdsourced crime solving – an abysmal failure.
 
Your point is well-taken at one end of the spectrum, but what about the other end where information is not forthcoming because the relevance of some important questions are not understood? Again, I would say that sometimes the "devil is in the details." If he stood up and identified himself, you would not have to watch out for him to ambush.

I asked questions which occurred to me. If information came back so be it. It may or may not have been under review by LE, but if not, then it would be there now if LE is watching. I encourage anyone with specific information to take it to LE, but I also believe that sharing thoughts or possibilities without making accusations is fair game in this kind of forum. I also think we should also be aware that it is open to everyone, including people who may have had some kind of involvement in whatever took place in 1975. Whatever is put out in this forum could end up in the hands of either side, but questions and answers beget further questions and answers which are needed to make progress. The option to making progress is to continue rehashing only the things already revealed ad infinitem. Call me an optimist, but I believe most people here are interested in seeing this case solved, and some may have information without knowing it. No one wants to bog down LE with "observations" they cannot prove are really valuable, but sharing questions may help determine if their questions are shared by others or if they may have pertinent information which could help.

If that is not a purpose for this kind of forum in sharing information, what is it for?

People could go directly to newspapers with information instead of putting it up for discussion here. No one here can be held responsible for what News Media report as fact rather than supposition, but information place here could be important as it is less intimidating to report supposition and analysis here than it is to go through LE's process. My view is, "If you have hard facts, take it to LE. If you want to discuss it with others to determine if others have the same questions, this is the best we have for public discussion of supposition and/or theory, and it should be viewed simply as only that." I consider this a forum for "gathering information and group discussion" by people who are interested or may have something they want to share. No one here is going to solve the crime. Solving crime --that is up to LE. News media should get facts from LE, and not report supposition or peripheal information as facts, it that is your reference to outsourced "intelligence gathering vs crime solving." That does not mean that people should should fear expressing and/or discussing personal thoughts or actual experiences as such.

Facts can be verified and certainly should be before news media report them. That is why they are called 'FACTS." Again, I would say that people sharing information here are not responsible for actions of News Media. Everyone should also know that LE makes disclosures to News Media for the public, not to private citizens when they are taking information being offered.
 
Ok, I am going to try another "outside the box" question that has been haunting me--another Maryland missing case that was solved with ties to Virgnia. Cynthia Joan Gastelle had been missing from Takoma Park for over 30 years when a body discovered buried in Harmarket, Va was determined to be the young woman. Taking PUBLIC information in the Lyon case in analysis with Gastelle case,

1. what is the proximity of the site where the body was found to the Mdietz reports of sighting one of the Lyon girls in a station wagon (forget about the vehicle, people change vehicles often)? No one has ever determined if Lyons could have been held in Northern Virginia before being taken further south (if they actually were taken to Bedford)? We have been a mobile society for many years, and I-81 opened a direct link to these areas.

2. Who owned the property where the remains were found?

3. Cynthia was said to have a boyfriend named "Michael," but I don't think the person was ever identified.

4. Takoma Park is close in proximity to both Wheaton and Hyattsville.

5. Seems I read somewhere where two other girls in that area reported "creepacite" activity including a man in a car and a big hole found dug in the ground on a path used by kids near the same area. This is from reading memory only, I will have to go back and see if I can find the actual links. By posting this, I am hoping others will also remember reading the cases and may connecting some information. These girls were not abducted but offered info to LE at the time--I know I read it on somewhere on WS threads.

6. Are any of the same people associated in any way with the Lyon sisters investigation known to have frequented or had any connections the same areas as Gastelle?

Neither time nor identification of the remains makes this case any less of a crime. The question in my mind is, "Is it in an way related?" "Are there any bits and pieces that could help solve both cases either in VA or MD files?"

While I am comforted by the fact that Cynthia's family have some answers and the remains back with them, as a mother, I still feel haunted by not knowing how this happened. Strange thing is, I don't remember this case from when it happened, I only discovered it in reading WS. She was a few years older than the Lyon girls (the people who killed her would have been a few years older too); there was only one young woman taken (not two children). Is that enough to discount any connection?

Again, only sharing my questions for others to think about. No factual basis, just questions on what I have read being posted by others.
 
Schipperke said:
This is the same person, but not the thread I found previously, Interesting though, that there are only 4 posts on that thread since 2011. Still more questions than answers.
Click to expand...
There is discussion in the Possible Connections thread starting about here.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?35049-Possible-Connections&p=11426028#post11426028

If you do a forum search for "Gastelle" in this forum, you will find more posts in other threads. Unfortunately, the information was not posted in Cynthia's thread.

ETA: I've updated Cynthia's thread with recent reports, including a news video which mentions the possibility of a link to the Lyon sisters -- "no definitive answers".

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...oma-Park-3-April-1980&p=12275919#post12275919
 
Although it is not officially linked to the case under discussion here, I am thinking it would be beneficial for everyone interested to take a look at the photos in the Gastelle case to see if anyone can identify the boyfriend in the case from 1980. (I am sure he looks much different now. LOL) He is not considered a suspect according to the information, but it also says he has never been identified either. May be something that could help one or both cases, may not; anything is worth a try. My suggestion, if you know who this person is or could be and have a name, call LE. Don't give specific identity here, but if you think you might have seen him in other areas but are not sure, I think that is permissible to post here, but I am sure Bessie will correct me if I am wrong, keeping in mind that we are not saying this person is tied to Lyon sisters disappearance. Like the news reporter said, it is a possibility, but not a fact. If you are the person in the photo and have nothing to hide, it might benefit you to contact LE and identify yourself at this stage. Innocent persons should have nothing to hide; that is my opinion.

Whew! Will wait now to see if I have crossed any lines for Bessie or for Stevep. (jokingly serious) Just trying to follow the rules.
 
Very interesting archive on WS ----- OTHER SIMILAR CASES ----- Started by Motherof5



​
 
The silence is deafening! Is no one caring anymore? Is information going to LE? Or, have recent comments struck a nerve making silence the safest choice with the next court dates coming up soon? I hope it is not the first one.

Foureyes: I found your post interesting when I reviewed previous information from the poster --
Jimmymc, Please post! Why do you think there is something more to the story
of Thomas Welch Jr seeing the Lyon Sisters in this house?​


 
In the WS thread, now closed, Missing But Not Forgotten, there is a post regarding a stranger encounter by children and discovery of a large hole in a wooded area of Carole Highlands between Langley Park and Takoma Park. The post was copied from a WUSA news article comment forum dated 2/17/2008 titled, Cold Case: Lyon Sisters Disappearance. The original comment was from Gail, Bethesda, and she remembers the incident being reported to police at the time and then parents refilling the hole There is a description of a man and a car. Also on the comment forum was a post from Cheryl Linn, Baltimore, who seemed to corroborate Gail's account--both were children at the time. Wondering if there are others who were adults or children in the area at the time who know anything about this? This would also have been close to the area where Cynthia Gastelle disappeared as well. It may be something LE would want to know about, even another contact by Gail and/or Cheryl Linn. I will try to re-post the entire comment when possible.
 
Schipperke said:
The silence is deafening! Is no one caring anymore? Is information going to LE?
of Thomas Welch Jr seeing the Lyon Sisters in this house?[
Click to expand...

I and I think others, are waiting to see the evidence that will come out in the trial.
If the police have solved the crime (with or without enough evidence to convict) there is little purpose in speculating on other theories.

But the speculation on connections and other crimes seems interesting. While many of these theories sound like 1-in-a-100 chances to me, there has to be one correct theory. Just be careful about attaching names to each theory, since by definition, all but one theory are going to be wrong.
 
steveP120 said:
I and I think others, are waiting to see the evidence that will come out in the trial.
If the police have solved the crime (with or without enough evidence to convict) there is little purpose in speculating on other theories.

But the speculation on connections and other crimes seems interesting. While many of these theories sound like 1-in-a-100 chances to me, there has to be one correct theory. Just be careful about attaching names to each theory, since by definition, all but one theory are going to be wrong.
Click to expand...

No names---thanks for the reminder SteveP.

As far is the crime involving Sheila and Katherine Lyon, there will be specific people who are guilty of: 1) making them go missing; 2) keeping them missing through death or otherwise; 3) withholding information for 40 years which could have helped save and/or return them to their family; 4) withholding information now about secrets and/or knowledge of has happened over 40 years ago. That is a lot of guilt covering a lot of activities and a long time.

Statements have been made that it was general knowledge (at least of family) in the Thaxton area that the accused, who was already considered trouble, was running with "two young girls from Maryland whose father was looking for them;" and bloody bags in the accused possession, as well participation in a fire smelling of burned flesh went unreported and uninvestigated. If all this is true, a lot of people have elected to burden themselves with heinous guilt for a very long time--40 years. If (as some people believe) any part of this is not true, but manufactured to hide the guilty, then people have elected now to burden themselves with hiding truth about a heinous crime which took place 40 years ago. This includes people who know something but refuse to speak out. That is a crime, too. That is a lot of guilt to go around!

My personal views--I would not want to be a member of either group, but the latter group still has redemptive choices available and time to consider your choices. If you know, or have heard something, it is not too late to make that knowledge available to LE for review. If your daughters went missing, what decision would you want people to make?

For the wordly:
ALL IT TAKES FOR EVIL TO PREVAIL IS FOR GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING! (that includes good women, too!)

For those who choose God's favor, in the words of the preacher:

Jesus said --
"I was born and come into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true." (John 18:37)

“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31b-32 NKJV).

“I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Way and The Truth and The Life; no man comes to my Father but by me alone.” (John 14:6)

"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape." (Proverbs 19:5)

 
Interesting reading which could or could not relate to some of these "Missing" cases - Taken (abducted) in Pennsylvania--made it to Wyoming before getting stopped in a routine traffic stop--headed for California to be forced into prostitution. Abductees able to signal police officer for help. More questions than answers again. Is this happening as a business? How long has it been going on? If young adult women can be take in by people like this, what about all of our missing teens? Are there mid points and buying/selling auctions underground? How do we tackle explaining such a business to our young and/or teen children? Do the abductors and the murders have to be the same people? yi-yi-yi--YI-YI

I would certainly like to know more about this case and how it began, how it ends, and what (if anything) we have learned to combat such a problem? I feel like I have been hit upside the head and told to wake up! Then I went searching and found another case between Nevada and Arizona which was discovered, and people involved had additional partners in Ohio and other states.

Another interesting thing -- I had a chance to speak with a person from Virginia between Thaxton and Bristol last week. I mentioned the Lyon Sister case and its relationship after 40 years from Wheaton MD to that area of SW Va and all the current information. I was surprised to hear that it was not part of the news reports in that area DESPITE ONE OF THE POSSIBLE SUSPECTS NOTED THROUGH THE YEARS WAS FROM BRISTOL, VA.

Makes more questions -- I have heard that LE profiles believe that people who abduct and abuse kids generally work alone, but suppose all these "possible connections suspects" learned they could connect either personally or through a "business" and "feed" each other. . . I am torn between thinking my imagination is out-of-control and believing that a possibility does not become a probability until it is analyzed and explored. How long do "diseases" spread before they are recognized, named, and studied? Is this Cabin Fever Jonas or a dose of reality?

Young women from Philadelphia being abducted and taken to Wyoming for human trafficking

http://www.rawlinstimes.com/news/2016/01/two-women-rescued-from-alleged-human-traffickers/

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...phia-California--365082631.html#ixzz3xXJiqu00
 
Schipperke said:
Another interesting thing -- I had a chance to speak with a person from Virginia between Thaxton and Bristol last week. I mentioned the Lyon Sister case and its relationship after 40 years from Wheaton MD to that area of SW Va and all the current information. I was surprised to hear that it was not part of the news reports in that area DESPITE ONE OF THE POSSIBLE SUSPECTS NOTED THROUGH THE YEARS WAS FROM BRISTOL, VA.

Makes more questions -- I have heard that LE profiles believe that people who abduct and abuse kids generally work alone, but suppose all these "possible connections suspects" learned they could connect
Click to expand...

Lloyd Welch was only identified by the police and named as a suspect in late 2014, and his minimal connection to Thaxton/Bristol which consisted of visiting relatives there in the 70s, and MAYBE burying bodies there, was not discovered by the police or released to the public until 2015.

I thought the local Roanoke news did a good job covering the case in the past year, sometimes scooping the Washington Post such as this TV station's stories on the Lyon Sisters.
http://www.wdbj7.com/page/search/sc...sters&sortBy=maupublicationdate&view=asSearch

Some people are just not into the news, and people pay attention to different parts of the news. Sadly, there are thousands of murders every year, which only a few make the news and most are forgotten by people seeing the news a day after seeing the news.

Most, but not all sex criminals act alone 1) because they don't need any help committing their sex crimes 2) it's fairly hard to find someone else say into rape and 3) just like most people, sex criminal enjoy sex more in private. However, child abusers were often abused themselves when young, which is how they picked up the criminal behavior.

Juvenile records are sealed in MD, but we think Lloyd spent time in the foster system after his drunk-driving father killed his mother in an automobile accident, so he could have picked up his criminal habits in the system, from relatives or on the street, all of which is speculation.
 
Anything is possible!

If we shut out any possibilities without completely reviewing them, we may handicap ourselves from finding the real truth! It seems that was the first mistake made in 1975. It is a mystery to me why some seem to want to shut down possibly open avenues BEFORE even checking to see where they might lead, UNLESS THEY REALLY WANT TO REDIRECT THE INVESTIGATION AWAY FROM SOLUTION.

You are right about so much of the facts which could be pertinent to this case being sealed from the public and only open to LE request procedures. That is a fact which can work for or against finding the truth depending on who was in charge in 1975 and who is is charge now and what their goal is/was. Fact is:

Until identifiable remains or other undisputable evidence is found, there will be the possibility that one of both of these girls or any of the other missing are still alive.

Many of these missing individuals fit a "designer" pattern thread which may connect them despite different locations and methods of operation by different suspects. You do not find minority raced individuals in threads with comparison to these cases. There may be other cases where the threads run differently, but not the ones here!

At least one of the articles I posted links to articles suggesting that some of these rings operate in such a manner that takes the "goods" after being sampled by initial participants. Takes care of disposal needs conveniently, doesn't it?

Looking at the "missing which have been listed here in WS alone," there is a mobility pattern up and down the east coast from Maine to Florida and from California. . . AZ. . .TX. . . GA. . . AL . . . Florida; from California to Oregon, . . . to MI, . . . NY, PA, NJ. . up to Maine or down to Florida. A number of those states are US border states with coastal ports or to Canada and Mexico. There are several instances of people (with connections to people in this case and others on WS) charged with child *advertiser censored* who are now serving time. It may take a little digging, but the information is there for the public to see.

Information has been posted on WS from time-to-time suggesting alternatives outside the box of "murder." (modsnip) and others have taken "pot shots" by people who seem to prefer having a "lid on the box" under consideration, BUT NONE HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY RULED OUT AS A POSSIBILITY! When you look at advancements in the world over the last 40 years, what makes it impossible to believe that organization of crime could not have matured as much as technology?

It is not easy to check out the sites I have made reference too. Nor is it easy to give consideration to the possibilities I have tried to touch upon here "lightly." If you want to cut directly to the gruesome, go directly to the Oakland County Child Killings in Michigan and do a little research in reality, keeping in mind THAT IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE CONNECTED TO ANY ONE OF THESE MISSING CHILDREN!

How many of you here had heard anything about these two young women rescued in WYOMING after being taken from PENNSYLVANIA before I happened across it and posted it here? How many others are out there that no one knows about? Then ask, "Why don't we hear more about the missing as well as the found, especially a case such as this one where the young women are known to have been kidnapped in PENNSYLVANIA and bound for sexual slavery in CALIFORNIA?" Why isn't it national headlines? What does it tell "evil in training?" No one will be looking for an east coast missing in a west coast location! Maybe we need address that lesson text!

Is the case of these sisters related to something like this? I DON'T KNOW, DO YOU?

Could it be related? IMO, YES! Should it be kept under consideration? YES

Is is something we want to keep under consideration? NO! Could it be real? YES!

Laugh at my consideration, get it all out! Then ask yourself, is it really impossible? These cases have in "kept in the box" for way to long IMO. Time to put John Walsh's national communication links on the top priority line. No LE is an island unto itself! And our news media needs to reconsider its function as well, IMO!

WS members will not be able to solve these. They may be of help even it is only recognizing a need for change in procedures.

There are other details in some of those missing links which need to be aired and reviewed, Unfortunately, naming them would be pushing the envelope.
 
QUOTE- "THEY really want to redirect the investigation" and "that one of both of these girls or any of the other missing are still alive. " "a need for change in procedures" (Post 28)

Without naming names, in general terms, who do you mean by "They" in your in depth article yesterday? What is not being considered as far as progressive developments of the Lyon Sister's abduction? Your suggestion for a change in proceeding with the investigation?

Reply, only if you are comfortable with answering with an opinion.
 
I would love to be able to name names if I had them, and I am certainly not shy about offering my opinion and identifying it as such. I have been re-reading the early threads that still remain. In some cases, especially since 2014 when persons of interest were identified, there is indication that some of the posters display bias and either defend individuals and/or deflect interest in other directions--especially when someone wants to consider or suggest an alternative to "bloody bags being burned on the mountain."

When you consider the "bloody bag burning" story, there are some "facts" to consider:

1) the story is totally corroborated only by people on the mountain at the times or by family members of the suspect/person of interest (true, no one else could possibly know or remember that from 40 years ago);

2) eliminating consideration of anything else stymies recognition of any other possibilities;

3) if this case ends in a trial over the "bloody bag burning," regardless of the final decision, many will see it as "The End" of the investigation whether or not it is proven true. In order to take the case in any other direction, LE would be forced to try to disprove a case they tried to prove in court, possibly with only circumstantial evidence. Not a pleasant situation to be in.

4) Without being derogatory to the people involved, it is a fact that clannish lifestyles of the area make almost everyone in the Taylor Mountain area "Kinfolk." This means that any investigation and/or trial in the area is likely to include. "kinfolk" in directing the outcome either innocently or purposely.

(modsnip)

IMO, some are seeking an "end" while others are seeking "truth in the ending," and what is being sought may not be one-and-the-same. Unless every possibility is examined, in or out of the neat little box being presented, how can we be sure? I think this is an appropriate question to be asked in a forum titled, "Websleuths."

I have followed these threads for years, until recently by reading only, but it is amazing what you see when you re-read information with an eye connected to a brain that has taken in knowledge through the passage of time. Additionally, I have reviewed available public information on other cases listed in WS looking for things that are similar and things that are different. I have considered the wildest claims of posters and the most sympathetic, not using emotions but with an eye for facts which can be disguised as fiction and fiction which can be disguised as fact. I have reread the "fictional novel based loosely on fact" What the Dead Know, looking for "subtle" ties. How subtle would the name of the owner of the house in which RAW lived in 1975 being the same as the name of the lead-detective-in-1975-in-the-book which was published in 2007? Just one that I found--Is it the only subtle connection? (That information/connection was only discovered (by me) in the last few months.) IMO, NO! (For the record, I am not interested in selling old books! You can verify information by just looking up on line the names of characters in the book. Seemed like more than a coincidence to my mind. If you have read the book or still have the book, I would be interested in hearing what you think.) Modern technology and social media contains an ever-yielding vault of information which the average person may stumble upon without recognizing it. I shudder to think what the knowledgeable, well-trained can actually do with it either for positive or negative results.

What none of us here know (including me) is exactly what led to the the discovery of the new evidence? Was it just a new detective looking at the case file? What other cases might have influenced the new look? Cases within the family or extended associates involving children? Cases involving child *advertiser censored*? Extended family names or associated connections? Many past posts here involved information on extended family members and associates having public judicial records now reachable online--remember that ever-yielding vault of information?

The truly sad part is that all of these cases involve REAL human lives--not characters in books created for entertainment of other humans--and there are plenty of crime novels utilizing fact and fiction to entertain readers. These were once innocent children living their lives and expecting to grow up just like the majority of us have in the last 40 years--another quote from another past-post regarding this case in WS and social media , ". . .evil does exist in the hearts and souls of many."

To answer your question, Foureyes, I think we are putting too much faith in people who possess the cunning ability of nature to lead and hide which has served them well for more than 40 years. I don't know names; I don't possess proof; but I do believe I recognize signs which need to be considered. Indeed, your own comments and posts have yielded a plethora of historical information on the Mount Rainier, Brentwood, Cottage City, Hyattsville area since the 1940's, which I sense you wish to see revealed rather than to hide. YOU asked for my opinion, and you have it.

And again, I find myself wondering if I have "Cabin Fever Jonas" or real sleuth skills to share?
 
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