Sidebar Discussion #2

[Azcrabcakes]

...Randy Means, with State Attorney Lawson Lamar's office, also sees problems with interviewing jurors post-verdict. They are no longer the same jurors, Means said, because they've been exposed to additional information about the cases they heard months or weeks earlier.

"Normally, it's not a very good idea to second-guess jurors," he said.

Randy Means' pivotal word here is "Normally."

 

[PeteyGirl]

<<snipped>>

And by the way, it was the DT's job to "win the jury", not to worry about justice for anyone but their client. Had they done anything else, there would have been legitimate grounds for some one to file a complaint with the bar association, or perhaps grounds for an appeal had Casey not been acquitted.

With all due respect, only in a world where TRUTH is irrelevant can I see your point.

 

[Eidetic]

Somewhere, back in the midst of the trial, someone here (so very much wish I could remember who) said "in a courtroom, there is no justice, only law." -Eidetic
So we live with law. And dream of justice.

And we. Remember. Caylee.

:seeya:

 

[Eidetic]

That pic was from the moment the verdict came down. It's really hard to watch but this is where he pulled the pork chop grin. :sick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6uKVfRTcfF8#t=296s

Really? That is the moment I saw disbelief and horror flash over his face and his body language as he hugged and turned away from her.

I thought of it as more a wince or grimace than a grin. He kept his lips tightly closed and didn't show any teeth. His mouth corners are turned down as in a frown. :twocents:

Compare his eyes and the lack of contact he made with them towards offender Anthony to this smug little grin.

Or this genuine smile.

 

[miss plum]

From the website...

Your Kindness and Support Will Continue To Light The Way For Caylee

...and lead Caylee where exactly? Nothing like tugging on people's heartstrings to bring in money. For what?

Such breathtaking shamelessness.

 

[LambChop]

Really? That is the moment I saw disbelief and horror flash over his face and his body language as he hugged and turned away from her.

I thought of it as more a wince or grimace than a grin. He kept his lips tightly closed and didn't show any teeth. His mouth corners are turned down as in a frown. :twocents:

Compare his eyes and the lack of contact he made with them towards offender Anthony to this smug little grin.

Or this genuine smile.

And I bet now, more than before, she's a handful. jmo

 

[Well Done 99]

IMO, Jeff, in his mind, was finishing the last chapter for his book, and caculating his potential profit, and celebrating internally.

And by the way, it was the DT's job to "win the jury", not to worry about justice for anyone but their client. Had they done anything else, there would have been legitimate grounds for some one to file a complaint with the bar association, or perhaps grounds for an appeal had Casey not been acquitted.

I see the point you are making and thank you for reply. Nobody would deny it is any DT's duty on behalf of their client to win the case - and by definition, the jury.
I'm just not sure that jumping up and down, group hugs and kisses and heading directly across the road for celebatory drinks would be considered an appropriate response to a verdict where the victim was a child and the accused was her mother.
I watched the trial and the verdict phase live, as did most here and I can't recall having any indication that Mr Ashton was sitting there at that moment contemplating, inwardly or otherwise, how many dollars he would be making out of losing the case. I saw disappointment in his face ... and elation in Casey's.

 

[LambChop]

What I find difficult to believe is that the very day after the verdict was read JB was in NYC soliciting media deals. Any normal defense attorney would have been back to work the next day for his other clients. While JB was not responsible for bringing this case to the media's attention he sure kept it there. I think if Judge Strickland could do it over again he'd have slapped a gag order on all of them because he could see where it was going. jmo

 

[BigFatMommyDog]

:seeya:

thank you Eidetic!

funny thing is, I woke up this morning thinking - something something Eidetic something - which is so very droll considering your name...:crazy

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

What I find difficult to believe is that the very day after the verdict was read JB was in NYC soliciting media deals. Any normal defense attorney would have been back to work the next day for his other clients. While JB was not responsible for bringing this case to the media's attention he sure kept it there. I think if Judge Strickland could do it over again he'd have slapped a gag order on all of them because he could see where it was going. jmo

I'm not sure that a gag order would have done a whole lot of good, unless, it would have included everything released due to the Sunshine Law, as well as keeping JB from doing interviews and press conferences.

With a gag order, that didn't prohibit the doc dumps, photos, jailhouse tapes, etc., the media would have still kept this story in the news. Every motion made by the defense would have been news. All the lawyers that worked with the defense would still have made the news, whether they were new to the DT or leaving the DT. Also, instead of hearing from JB directly, many members of the media would have done stories where sources inside the DT camp, or sources near the DT camp, would have leaked out information. JB would have had deniability, that he did not have when the words came directly from him on camera.

I dont' think a gag order would have stopped this trial from becoming a circus. I think there just would have been a whole lot of speculation as to who the sources near the DT was that leaked information was, and speculation as to the validity of the information that was leaked.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[LambChop]

I'm not sure that a gag order would have done a whole lot of good, unless, it would have included everything released due to the Sunshine Law, as well as keeping JB from doing interviews and press conferences.

With a gag order, that didn't prohibit the doc dumps, photos, jailhouse tapes, etc., the media would have still kept this story in the news. Every motion made by the defense would have been news. All the lawyers that worked with the defense would still have made the news, whether they were new to the DT or leaving the DT. Also, instead of hearing from JB directly, many members of the media would have done stories where sources inside the DT camp, or sources near the DT camp, would have leaked out information. JB would have had deniability, that he did not have when the words came directly from him on camera.

I dont' think a gag order would have stopped this trial from becoming a circus. I think there just would have been a whole lot of speculation as to who the sources near the DT was that leaked information was, and speculation as to the validity of the information that was leaked.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

It would not have changed things here at WS's because we still would have worked at it. For those that do not utilize forums the interest would have faded quickly, IMO. There are many other stories out there that involve similiar circumstances as this case and they are not in the news and informtion is not all that available. jmo

 

[MsMacGyver]

I see the point you are making and thank you for reply. Nobody would deny it is any DT's duty on behalf of their client to win the case - and by definition, the jury.
I'm just not sure that jumping up and down, group hugs and kisses and heading directly across the road for celebatory drinks would be considered an appropriate response to a verdict where the victim was a child and the accused was her mother.
I watched the trial and the verdict phase live, as did most here and I can't recall having any indication that Mr Ashton was sitting there at that moment contemplating, inwardly or otherwise, how many dollars he would be making out of losing the case. I saw disappointment in his face ... and elation in Casey's.

I was watching HLN this morning, they played a clip of Larry K. He was talking about a conversation he had with someone, can't remember his name. Larry asked what the defense job was..The guy replied...The defense teams job is to take the jury and convince one and only one juror of reasonable doubt....

Also a few days ago I heard JVM say..."If a person can't visualize how a crime was committed, how do you convict them of the crime"....
imo...I'm still mulling this one over...:waitasec:

I agree with your post, DS was acting like a school girl, not becoming imo...I also watched the verdict live with an e-mail ready to go out to my daughter at work, subject line..guilty. Then I heard NG and almost fell off my chair. My heart dropped on the floor. I changed the subject line, sent and waited for her reply..I can't use that language on here or I'd be sittin in the corner for a week!...:seeya:

 

[Aedrys]

I'm not sure that a gag order would have done a whole lot of good, unless, it would have included everything released due to the Sunshine Law, as well as keeping JB from doing interviews and press conferences.

With a gag order, that didn't prohibit the doc dumps, photos, jailhouse tapes, etc., the media would have still kept this story in the news. Every motion made by the defense would have been news. All the lawyers that worked with the defense would still have made the news, whether they were new to the DT or leaving the DT. Also, instead of hearing from JB directly, many members of the media would have done stories where sources inside the DT camp, or sources near the DT camp, would have leaked out information. JB would have had deniability, that he did not have when the words came directly from him on camera.

I dont' think a gag order would have stopped this trial from becoming a circus. I think there just would have been a whole lot of speculation as to who the sources near the DT was that leaked information was, and speculation as to the validity of the information that was leaked.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

Maybe not, but it would have prohibited the defense going on every show they could and talking about the case. The prosecution never did that once. And heck, the defense FOUGHT against any gag order on the case and won! Gee, I wonder why that was? Yes, we'd still have doc dumps, but we wouldn't have had the media circus this case turned into because the defense couldn't stop itself from being in the media as much as it could. I'm glad in some other cases some gag orders have been put into effect - The Michael Jackson case is the most recent. We need less of defense propaganda in the media. The only good thing to come out of the defense's media circus in the Casey case is the effect it's had so far in other cases, and I hope that continues. The defense should not be allowed to peddle their story to the media and turn people their way because of something that's not true. That is not justice at all.

 

[Aedrys]

I was watching HLN this morning, they played a clip of Larry K. He was talking about a conversation he had with someone, can't remember his name. Larry asked what the defense job was..The guy replied...The defense teams job is to take the jury and convince one and only one juror of reasonable doubt....

Also a few days ago I heard JVM say..."If a person can't visualize how a crime was committed, how do you convict them of the crime"....
imo...I'm still mulling this one over...:waitasec:

I agree with your post, DS was acting like a school girl, not becoming imo...I also watched the verdict live with an e-mail ready to go out to my daughter at work, subject line..guilty. Then I heard NG and almost fell off my chair. My heart dropped on the floor. I changed the subject line, sent and waited for her reply..I can't use that language on here or I'd be sittin in the corner for a week!...:seeya:

I think there's a difference in actually visualizing the crime, no matter how bad it is, and refusing to even think about it because it's too horrifying. I think this jury falls into the latter category. They went with what was nicer in their minds, not the reality of what actually happened. The prosecution did a great job in giving them plenty to visualize, but the problem is that they didn't want to visualize it. It mad them feel better to think that Caylee drowned because of negligence, even though there wasn't a drop of evidence to prove that, not that her mother was a cold blooded killer with a mountain of evidence to prove it.

 

[jon_burrows]

I'm not sure that a gag order would have done a whole lot of good, unless, it would have included everything released due to the Sunshine Law, as well as keeping JB from doing interviews and press conferences.

With a gag order, that didn't prohibit the doc dumps, photos, jailhouse tapes, etc., the media would have still kept this story in the news. Every motion made by the defense would have been news. All the lawyers that worked with the defense would still have made the news, whether they were new to the DT or leaving the DT. Also, instead of hearing from JB directly, many members of the media would have done stories where sources inside the DT camp, or sources near the DT camp, would have leaked out information. JB would have had deniability, that he did not have when the words came directly from him on camera.

I dont' think a gag order would have stopped this trial from becoming a circus. I think there just would have been a whole lot of speculation as to who the sources near the DT was that leaked information was, and speculation as to the validity of the information that was leaked.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

I think JBP could take some lessons from the judge in the MJ trial. I was expecting CM's trial to be total chaos. In fact, I didn't watch the beginning because I didn't want to see our legal system twisted into a joke again. I'm amazed at how professional the trial has been so far (at least what I've seen). As soon as a member of the DT went on a talk show blasting the prosecution he ordered a gag order immediately. He refused to sequester the jury. The CM judge instructs the jury all the time but he doesn't kiss their arse. In a word he is professional to everyone. He does not yell, snap at people or issue threats. JBP was all over the place, sickening sweet to downright rude to giving threats that were just that, empty threats.

I was looking for a good clip of one of my favs (Dr. Arpad Vass) when we were having a little fun with JB's staged picture in front of a computer. JBP was just plain rude to Vass in front of the jury. He told him if you want the jury to hear you, you must slow down. It wasn't what he said but how he said it. Did the jury read into his tone, body language, etc? Was Vass' testimony completely ignored by the jury because JBP kissed their a## 15 times a day and was outright rude to Vass?

The exact same scenario happened in the MJ case. The anesthesiologist was talking fast and using some pretty complicated medical terms. The judge asked him several times to slow down but it was completely different than JBP. He did it respectfully. In fact, the court reporter stopped him and asked for a spelling and there was for the first time I saw, a tiny bit of laughter in courtroom to include the doc as he apologized again and tried to slow down. The lawyers aren't making faces and cracking jokes. The defendant is not making faces, mouthing words to the jury or burying his face in his attorneys arm pit to garner sympathy. The judge would shut that nonsense down immediately. The mood is somber in CM's courtroom because a person is dead. You would have never known that half the time during the FCA trial.

The DT is burying CM but the judge is not stepping in to help him. Unlike JBP who held JB's hand the entire trial.

The most glaring difference (aside from the absurdity of FCA's DT) I see is the jury gets to hear expert testimony from beginning to end. They are not pop tarts, subjected to constant sidebars, etc. For the first time in my life I was ashamed of our judicial system during the FCA trial. The CM jury is taking lots of notes. The CM judge is showing the world how it's supposed to work in our country.

IMO

 

[MsMacGyver]

Really? That is the moment I saw disbelief and horror flash over his face and his body language as he hugged and turned away from her.

I thought of it as more a wince or grimace than a grin. He kept his lips tightly closed and didn't show any teeth. His mouth corners are turned down as in a frown. :twocents:

Compare his eyes and the lack of contact he made with them towards offender Anthony to this smug little grin.

Or this genuine smile.

Eidetic
It has always fascinated me how perception differs from one person to another. What I see is JB's mind going directly to..I'm gonna be a Star...fame and fortune..here I come.
I would love to hear yours and everyone else's take on some other parts of the video. This video is hard for me to watch, by far the most upsetting for me and I close my eyes everytime they played it.

At 17 seconds, after Judge P says.."Would you hand the verdict form to the court deputy please"..JB is staring at the jurors, he *advertiser censored* his head, opens his mouth a little and has the slightest grin..the corners of his mouth go up just a bit.

After this FCA is waiting for the verdict and she's staring a hole through the juror's...I think she's thinking...I'm going to get everyone of you people, I don't care what it takes, I'll find a way to get you back if you convict me.

The most interesting to me is when the jurors are being polled. Go through and listen to every juror's response and tell me who you think has a conviction to their decision, who doesn't and if you hear any sadness in anyones voice.
Juror's 3-4-6-8-9-10-12 sound OK with their decision
Juror #1..I'm on the fence with her
Juror #7...not sure at all if she's done the right thing
Juror's 2-11...not sure of their decsion
Juror #5..has some sadness in her voice

If you watch the video without sound it's also quite interesting from 1:48 through 3:42...watch FCA's face.

As always...JMO

 

[MsMacGyver]

I think JBP could take some lessons from the judge in the MJ trial. I was expecting CM's trial to be total chaos. In fact, I didn't watch the beginning because I didn't want to see our legal system twisted into a joke again. I'm amazed at how professional the trial has been so far (at least what I've seen). As soon as a member of the DT went on a talk show blasting the prosecution he ordered a gag order immediately. He refused to sequester the jury. The CM judge instructs the jury all the time but he doesn't kiss their arse. In a word he is professional to everyone. He does not yell, snap at people or issue threats. JBP was all over the place, sickening sweet to downright rude to giving threats that were just that, empty threats.

I was looking for a good clip of one of my favs (Dr. Arpad Vass) when we were having a little fun with JB's staged picture in front of a computer. JBP was just plain rude to Vass in front of the jury. He told him if you want the jury to hear you, you must slow down. It wasn't what he said but how he said it. Did the jury read into his tone, body language, etc? Was Vass' testimony completely ignored by the jury because JBP kissed their a## 15 times a day and was outright rude to Vass?

The exact same scenario happened in the MJ case. The anesthesiologist was talking fast and using some pretty complicated medical terms. The judge asked him several times to slow down but it was completely different than JBP. He did it respectfully. In fact, the court reporter stopped him and asked for a spelling and there was for the first time I saw, a tiny bit of laughter in courtroom to include the doc as he apologized again and tried to slow down. The lawyers aren't making faces and cracking jokes. The defendant is not making faces, mouthing words to the jury or burying his face in his attorneys arm pit to garner sympathy. The judge would shut that nonsense down immediately. The mood is somber in CM's courtroom because a person is dead. You would have never known that half the time during the FCA trial.

The DT is burying CM but the judge is not stepping in to help him. Unlike JBP who held JB's hand the entire trial.

The most glaring difference (aside from the absurdity of FCA's DT) I see is the jury gets to hear expert testimony from beginning to end. They are not pop tarts, subjected to constant sidebars, etc. For the first time in my life I was ashamed of our judicial system during the FCA trial. The CM jury is taking lots of notes. The CM judge is showing the world how it's supposed to work in our country.

IMO

Post of the week!.....:rocker:

 

[Murphismo]

this is totally off topic, but can anyone tell me the name of the baby girl nancy grace is trying to track down, I can't find a thread for it! Thanks dudes :0)

 

[MsMacGyver]

I think there's a difference in actually visualizing the crime, no matter how bad it is, and refusing to even think about it because it's too horrifying. I think this jury falls into the latter category. They went with what was nicer in their minds, not the reality of what actually happened. The prosecution did a great job in giving them plenty to visualize, but the problem is that they didn't want to visualize it. It mad them feel better to think that Caylee drowned because of negligence, even though there wasn't a drop of evidence to prove that, not that her mother was a cold blooded killer with a mountain of evidence to prove it.

TA
Add the image JB put into the juror's heads with the OS and you've got a NG verdict!..If interested search brain washing...Keep in mind this is for fun but if you find the correct site, theres 6 examples, #5 being "Slipping Bull***t into Your Subconscious". I can't post a link, you"ll understand if you find the correct site, nothing bad. Once you start reading, some things JB pulled during trial start to make sense. There's info regarding another posters theory about JB inserting certain words into search engines also...:seeya:

 

[MsMacGyver]

this is totally off topic, but can anyone tell me the name of the baby girl nancy grace is trying to track down, I can't find a thread for it! Thanks dudes :0)

Baby Lisa...:seeya: