Sidebar Discussion

[2goldfish]

Good grief! It is common among mothers who kill their children - case histories abound....hard to also believe a mother would strap her two toddlers into their car seats and roll the car under water but...Susan Smith did. Hard to believe a mother walked out of the hospital with her disabled four month old baby and tossed him off the top of the car park garage three months ago and killed him in Orlando, but she did. Hard to believe a 26 year old mother would give birth at home to twins in the family bathroom and smother each one immediately after birth, but she did...the list goes on and on and on - what it it? More than 100 children per year killed by their mothers in the states? I think so...

heavens, dear, dont make that shocked face at me :crazy: you know perfectly well that I know that (relatively) cute white woman or no, OCA is black as night on the inside and sure did do it.

I just think the jurors couldnt get over it.

 

[Aedrys]

I agree it might have been more likely to result in a conviction. because if there is no duct tape, no one has to go there mentally to believe a mother would do THAT (chloroform is arguably a much softer kill) I think that was one of the hardest things for most people - even me.

also, the jury would have not had the ghost of the DP hanging over them, from the time of selection I didnt feel they jury was death qualified - I think that had a huge effect as well.

The problem is, there are people out there who are capable of heinous crimes we don't want to think about. The jury needed to hear everything, not this crime sugarcoated to give a better verdict. Their decision needed to be based on reality, not something nicer because the reality was so heinous. If they refused to believe a pretty girl like Casey couldn't have done this, then that sets up pretty women in the future to get away with murder. All a woman has to do is be young and pretty, and no one will believe she has the capability to commit murder. I don't think that is right at all.

Casey is certainly capable of what she did to Caylee, and I fully believe that duct tape went on first, not later. It's the harsh reality of what happened to Caylee. This wasn't an accident by neglect. It just wasn't. People need to start accepting that pretty, young people are heinous murderers too. No one should get an exception because we don't want to believe they would do something so horrible and evil. Horrible, heinous murders happen. That is a fact. It's a hard, cold, cruel world we live in. That's a fact too.

Also, I don't get the DP hanging over them. The DP was only attached to one charge. There were several others that didn't require the DP. It wasn't like it was DP or nothing. It was DP, or several lesser charges that the most would have been life in prison. I understand it's difficult to decide life or death, but that wasn't what this was. The DP was not hanging over the jury. They just used that an another lame excuse for their verdict. They had plenty of opportunity to spare her life and leave her rotting in a jail cell, and they refused to even do that. Unbelievable.

 

[2goldfish]

The problem is, there are people out there who are capable of heinous crimes we don't want to think about. The jury needed to hear everything, not this crime sugarcoated to give a better verdict. Their decision needed to be based on reality, not something nicer because the reality was so heinous. If they refused to believe a pretty girl like Casey couldn't have done this, then that sets up pretty women in the future to get away with murder. All a woman has to do is be young and pretty, and no one will believe she has the capability to commit murder. I don't think that is right at all.

Casey is certainly capable of what she did to Caylee, and I fully believe that duct tape went on first, not later. It's the harsh reality of what happened to Caylee. This wasn't an accident by neglect. It just wasn't. People need to start accepting that pretty, young people are heinous murderers too. No one should get an exception because we don't want to believe they would do something so horrible and evil. Horrible, heinous murders happen. That is a fact. It's a hard, cold, cruel world we live in. That's a fact too.

Also, I don't get the DP hanging over them. The DP was only attached to one charge. There were several others that didn't require the DP. It wasn't like it was DP or nothing. It was DP, or several lesser charges that the most would have been life in prison. I understand it's difficult to decide life or death, but that wasn't what this was. The DP was not hanging over the jury. They just used that an another lame excuse for their verdict. They had plenty of opportunity to spare her life and leave her rotting in a jail cell, and they refused to even do that. Unbelievable.

I completely agree, I'm just trying to think like one of pinellas 12. am I doing a good job? cause even LG was making the eek face at my post LOL

but really, I think it's worth a debate as to what may have resulted with same jury, no body. they wouldnt have gotten (in the paraphrased words of jennifer ford) lost in the maze of evidence.

 

[Murphismo]

Cindy's counting on you.....:banghead:

Sorry....:blowkiss: but therein lies the problem. It is what it is - we need to deal with the fact that mothers do terrible children to their own children sometimes.

My brain and my heart don't communicate :innocent:. Brain accepts it, heart doesn't want to.... what is wrong with our world........??? I know, I see it every day on the news. I believe happens, I just dont' understand WHY!???:maddening:

 

[MarthaM]

[/B]

So a few posts ago it was too little circumstantial evidence and now there was too much? Which one was it again? :waitasec:

It's not an either/or thing. You might have missed the posts I was responding to. A couple of posters raised some possibilities that I hadn't thought of, and I was considering those. I think they brought up good points.

 

[Murphismo]

I completely agree, I'm just trying to think like one of pinellas 12. am I doing a good job? cause even LG was making the eek face at my post LOL

but really, I think it's worth a debate as to what may have resulted with same jury, no body. they wouldnt have gotten (in the paraphrased words of jennifer ford) lost in the maze of evidence.

Don't try too hard to think that way, you're brain might explode :crazy:

 

[Murphismo]

Have fun chavitzing tonight! I'm headed out for a much needed break from my own three lovable little piglets and out with adults for some sushi and a much needed cocktail or three! :woohoo:

 

[logicalgirl]

Her family said it was Yoga....:rocker:

Oh good grief - I hadn't heard that - no Yoga that I've ever seen in 20 years as a student.....
Her family is her family - of course they think she is innocent..I expect them to support her completely.

 

[logicalgirl]

Completely O/T - Clifford Olsen, the "Beast of British Columbia" serial killer of children, died of cancer in a Quebec hospital today. Canadians quietly rejoice.
Blessings to the survivor families...sleep in peace tonight.

 

[Aedrys]

I completely agree, I'm just trying to think like one of pinellas 12. am I doing a good job? cause even LG was making the eek face at my post LOL

but really, I think it's worth a debate as to what may have resulted with same jury, no body. they wouldnt have gotten (in the paraphrased words of jennifer ford) lost in the maze of evidence.

Ha ha. Okay, as long you're playing, you're okay. You almost had me fooled! LOL

 

[logicalgirl]

My brain and my heart don't communicate :innocent:. Brain accepts it, heart doesn't want to.... what is wrong with our world........??? I know, I see it every day on the news. I believe happens, I just dont' understand WHY!???:maddening:

The law doesn't require us to know "Why" - and that's a problem right there.
It is what it is - some mothers kill their children and need to be punished for it. Our society cannot condone the killing of innocent children by anyone.

 

[logicalgirl]

I completely agree, I'm just trying to think like one of pinellas 12. am I doing a good job? cause even LG was making the eek face at my post LOL

but really, I think it's worth a debate as to what may have resulted with same jury, no body. they wouldnt have gotten (in the paraphrased words of jennifer ford) lost in the maze of evidence.

Sorry 2goldfish - I did recognize your point. We have heard nothing about the mother who tossed her baby off the carpark a couple of months ago because neither the mother or the child were white. Very sad.

 

[NocturnalLady]

Good grief! It is common among mothers who kill their children - case histories abound....hard to also believe a mother would strap her two toddlers into their car seats and roll the car under water but...Susan Smith did. Hard to believe a mother walked out of the hospital with her disabled four month old baby and tossed him off the top of the car park garage three months ago and killed him in Orlando, but she did. Hard to believe a 26 year old mother would give birth at home to twins in the family bathroom and smother each one immediately after birth, but she did...the list goes on and on and on - what it it? More than 100 children per year killed by their mothers in the states? I think so...

Agree - smothering is probably the number one way that mothers murder their children. Especially if they are young children and still small.

I'll throw this out there - I have never been comfortable with the chloroform. I'm not sure Casey ever made any, ever used it on Caylee or that there was ever an unusual amount of chloroform in that car trunk. The google search that is apparently now only a single search is explained easily by curiosity aroused by the post Ricardo made. She maybe even searched for how to make some thinking it would be a fun sex drug. But I don't think the computer search can be used as definitive evidence that she was planning something nefarious with chloroform. There's no evidence she ever made any or purchased any supplies to make any. As far as the car is concerned I think that since we don't have studies to tell us how much chloroform there should be in that type of car with that type of carpet or how those elements would react with cleaning agents, gasoline etc. and if the trunk was closed for a time allowing levels to accumulate..etc. Dr. Vass couldn't quantify his measurements or compare them to what levels would be obtained if testing was done using similar elements (car, carpet, decomp etc.) with the added cleaning agents plus the time, temp., sealed conditions etc. In that case - given what the prosecution could prove about the chloroform, which was basically nothing - I think they should have seriously laid off the chloroform theory.

I think Casey smothered Caylee with the duct tape. Plain and simple. Crediting her with being a sly, evil genius who researched, manufactured and successfully murdered someone with chloroform all while leaving no trace of her activities made the whole thing seem too Hollywood and too far fetched to the jurors. New, untested science is too confusing for people like the jurors in this case. Sadly I think the prosecution got taken for a ride by the falsely high number of searches that were reported to be found on Casey's computer. That ride took them off into fantasy land rather than sticking with what I believe this murder was, a smothering death - common and ordinary. Just like Casey herself.

 

[SondraK]

I have always believed that KC took a crying, upset Caylee out to the car after a fight with her mother. She got very angry at Caylee crying for her grandma, was frustrated that her evening plans were being interrupted, and in that mood, took the tape and "shut Caylee up". She may have been texting on her phone, but when she noticed Caylee not breathing, she panicked. She made the many calls to her mother then stashed Caylee in the trunk so that she could continue her plans uninterrupted. This is the scene I have had in my head since the first of this case. JMO

 

[krkrjx]

to that end, had the remains never been found and they went with charges as in the original indictment, no DP on the table, chloroform and trunk evidence as it was, I wonder how that might have turned out.

IMO, not with this jury. This jury would have demanded a body. Without it, they would have assumed there was not even a death, let alone a murder.

A combination of things came into play in this case but I think the main fault was with the jury misunderstanding what reasonable doubt means, not understanding in full the jury instructions, and not understanding that it was their job to connect the dots. IMO, they did not know what the deliberation process entailed. Whose fault that was is, I suppose, open to ineterpretation.

 

[logicalgirl]

Agree - smothering is probably the number one way that mothers murder their children. Especially if they are young children and still small.

I'll throw this out there - I have never been comfortable with the chloroform. I'm not sure Casey ever made any, ever used it on Caylee or that there was ever an unusual amount of chloroform in that car trunk. The google search that is apparently now only a single search is explained easily by curiosity aroused by the post Ricardo made. She maybe even searched for how to make some thinking it would be a fun sex drug. But I don't think the computer search can be used as definitive evidence that she was planning something nefarious with chloroform. There's no evidence she ever made any or purchased any supplies to make any. As far as the car is concerned I think that since we don't have studies to tell us how much chloroform there should be in that type of car with that type of carpet or how those elements would react with cleaning agents, gasoline etc. and if the trunk was closed for a time allowing levels to accumulate..etc. Dr. Vass couldn't quantify his measurements or compare them to what levels would be obtained if testing was done using similar elements (car, carpet, decomp etc.) with the added cleaning agents plus the time, temp., sealed conditions etc. In that case - given what the prosecution could prove about the chloroform, which was basically nothing - I think they should have seriously laid off the chloroform theory.

I think Casey smothered Caylee with the duct tape. Plain and simple. Crediting her with being a sly, evil genius who researched, manufactured and successfully murdered someone with chloroform all while leaving no trace of her activities made the whole thing seem too Hollywood and too far fetched to the jurors. New, untested science is too confusing for people like the jurors in this case. Sadly I think the prosecution got taken for a ride by the falsely high number of searches that were reported to be found on Casey's computer. That ride took them off into fantasy land rather than sticking with what I believe this murder was, a smothering death - common and ordinary. Just like Casey herself.

We do actually know that stuff - and the experts touched on it in their testimonies - there was just no other explanation for it. And when we eliminate the impossible, the probable is likely the truth.

 

[LambChop]

I thought Dr. G made it pretty clear that the cause of death was probably the duct tape because there just was no other reasonable explanation for it being on Caylee's face. jmo

 

[RANCH]

It's a question of quality rather than quantity. Three pieces of circumstantial evidence can lead a jury to convict and a hundred pieces can still leave them with reasonable doubt.

I love your posts MarthaM, keep'n coming. I'm not sure if I am following your idea here. If the circumstantial evidence is inculpatory in nature, a hundred pieces of them would help the prosecution much more than a mere three pieces.

Now, if the circumstantial evidence is mainly exculpatory, it would be the opposite. Right? So
using a quality v quantity doesn't always fit .

 

[krkrjx]

The problem is, there are people out there who are capable of heinous crimes we don't want to think about. The jury needed to hear everything, not this crime sugarcoated to give a better verdict. Their decision needed to be based on reality, not something nicer because the reality was so heinous. If they refused to believe a pretty girl like Casey couldn't have done this, then that sets up pretty women in the future to get away with murder. All a woman has to do is be young and pretty, and no one will believe she has the capability to commit murder. I don't think that is right at all.

Casey is certainly capable of what she did to Caylee, and I fully believe that duct tape went on first, not later. It's the harsh reality of what happened to Caylee. This wasn't an accident by neglect. It just wasn't. People need to start accepting that pretty, young people are heinous murderers too. No one should get an exception because we don't want to believe they would do something so horrible and evil. Horrible, heinous murders happen. That is a fact. It's a hard, cold, cruel world we live in. That's a fact too.

Also, I don't get the DP hanging over them. The DP was only attached to one charge. There were several others that didn't require the DP. It wasn't like it was DP or nothing. It was DP, or several lesser charges that the most would have been life in prison. I understand it's difficult to decide life or death, but that wasn't what this was. The DP was not hanging over the jury. They just used that an another lame excuse for their verdict. They had plenty of opportunity to spare her life and leave her rotting in a jail cell, and they refused to even do that. Unbelievable.

Love your post and couldn't have said it better! Sometimes I am forced to ask: Since they had several chances to see that justice was served without condemning her to death, why didn't they? It scares me to think that their wanting to go home might not have been the reason. Meaning, the real reason is something hinky went down with that jury, something that maybe will one day be made public when one or more just cannot live with the guilt any longer.

I do not mean to offend or to start anything. I just cannot understand how with so much evidence she was not even found guilty of abuse, given the 31 days. Certainly the jurors were not so obtuse that they thought a guilty verdict on that charge would bring forth the DP!

 

[MarthaM]

I love your posts MarthaM, keep'n coming. I'm not sure if I am following your idea here. If the circumstantial evidence is inculpatory in nature, a hundred pieces of them would help the prosecution much more than a mere three pieces.

Now, if the circumstantial evidence is mainly exculpatory, it would be the opposite. Right? So
using a quality v quantity doesn't always fit .

No, either way the quality of what they've got as CE is what matters, not how many different pieces of CE.

Love your post and couldn't have said it better! Sometimes I am forced to ask: Since they had several chances to see that justice was served without condemning her to death, why didn't they? It scares me to think that their wanting to go home might not have been the reason. Meaning, the real reason is something hinky went down with that jury, something that maybe will one day be made public when one or more just cannot live with the guilt any longer.

I do not mean to offend or to start anything. I just cannot understand how with so much evidence she was not even found guilty of abuse, given the 31 days. Certainly the jurors were not so obtuse that they thought a guilty verdict on that charge would bring forth the DP!

The real reason is that they didn't think the prosecution proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Nothing hinky or guilt-inducing about it.

And I've always thought that the easy way out for this jury would have been to just come back with a quick Guilty verdict. If they really wanted to just get it over and go home, they could have back with a Guilty verdict the same day they got the case. And they'd be heroes, praised from here to Kingdom Come. But they didn't do that.