Sidebar Discussion

[RANCH]

We have a broken quote above.
Hey MarthaM. Do you really belive that evidence should be reliable or not?

 

[logicalgirl]

Quoting myself since I asked the question wrong inititally. I swear on the lawyer thread AZ or one of the other lawyers said if the charge could only amount to a life sentence or less (and only one charge could possibly get the death penalty), that there wouldn't be a three week penalty phase. I remember being very surprised by that because I originally thought it would three weeks regardless. I guess they only need the three weeks if they're begging for her life? If I'm wrong, someone correct me.

No you are correct - voting her guilty on the first capital charge would have resulted in the penalty phase. Where death or life without parole would be debated.

 

[logicalgirl]

I have always believed that KC took a crying, upset Caylee out to the car after a fight with her mother. She got very angry at Caylee crying for her grandma, was frustrated that her evening plans were being interrupted, and in that mood, took the tape and "shut Caylee up". She may have been texting on her phone, but when she noticed Caylee not breathing, she panicked. She made the many calls to her mother then stashed Caylee in the trunk so that she could continue her plans uninterrupted. This is the scene I have had in my head since the first of this case. JMO

Not me. I thought she cold bloodedly duct taped her nose and mouth, put her in the bags, and stuck her in the trunk of her car to dispose of her later. No time that day because she had to do a bunch of myspace posting, and then get ready for her date with Tony.
Oh yeah, and I think she dumped her stash of chloroform in the trunk of the car just to get rid of it and in case the tape didn't keep Caylee "dead".

 

[logicalgirl]

Imagine if Amanda Knox gets released and comes home. Imagine the attention she will get, the interviews and the book and movie deals and the photo shoots and the sympathy. Imagine how pretty she will look with a good haircut and new clothes. Imagine FCA having to see Amanda Knox get all the attention she wanted to get. I am not convinced of Amanda Knox's innocence but I do have doubts about the prosecution of her case, and I certainly see value in her getting released.

Ohhhh - clever person! Another karmic event......hahaha OCA!

 

[BellaVita]

snipped by me
Casey is certainly capable of what she did to Caylee, and I fully believe that duct tape went on first, not later. It's the harsh reality of what happened to Caylee. This wasn't an accident by neglect. It just wasn't. People need to start accepting that pretty, young people are heinous murderers too. No one should get an exception because we don't want to believe they would do something so horrible and evil. Horrible, heinous murders happen. That is a fact. It's a hard, cold, cruel world we live in. That's a fact too.
Also, I don't get the DP hanging over them. The DP was only attached to one charge. There were several others that didn't require the DP. It wasn't like it was DP or nothing. It was DP, or several lesser charges that the most would have been life in prison. I understand it's difficult to decide life or death, but that wasn't what this was. The DP was not hanging over the jury. They just used that an another lame excuse for their verdict. They had plenty of opportunity to spare her life and leave her rotting in a jail cell, and they refused to even do that. Unbelievable.

Oh yeah. And the poor foreman stated that he didn't like to keep hearing that Caylee was dumped in a swamp. Boo Hoo. He didn't want to hear the facts of the case. I had followed this case quite extensively before trial, though not as much as many here. So I did have an impression of guilt but it was not until trial that my opinion totally solidified. The testimony of the anthropologist about the duct tape totally did it for me. He had examined thousands of bodies during his career and the only skull he had ever seen with the mandible attached belonged to a war crime victim in Bosnia. That skull had duct tape attached. Even Casey knew the tape would hang her with a normal jury. Therefore could not admit to location of the body. There is ZERO lack of evidence in this case. If a person believes there is reasonable doubt, they would have to believe another person killed Caylee and put the duct tape on her. I know the jury could not consider this, but FL Supreme Court has ruled that there is no reason to believe duct tape would be applied to an already dead person. As JA said: who is going to make an accident look like murder???

 

[Whisperer]

I believe Caylee was murdered by her mother...this was no accident. You don't need three layers of tape to stage a murder when one would have sufficed. She intently and wickedly smothered her daughter to death.

I think the chloroform came from dry cleaning fluid the grandparents used to clean the stain and carpet. It had been said that the car was very dirty when at the tow yard. It was cleaned expertly. GA used to detail out cars professionally. I bet he kept some of the cleaner he used in his garage. Dry cleaning fluid has chloroform in it.

I don't think he saw the two on the sixteenth...but that is all the State had to go on. This child was found w/o shoes.George described shoes...there were none. There were no child shoes in the car either. Caylee's mother snagged her out of Cindy's arms on the night of the fifteenth and ran out to the garage with her. She grabbed tape from the shelf and a steak knife from the kitchen and drove around the corner.

 

[BellaVita]

That chart just solidified my opinion that KC was not guilty BARD on the first 3 charges.

Prior to the trial, I wavered often back and forth between she was probably guilty to she was possibly guilty. Occasionally, I even felt like she was likely guilty.

Even when I was leaning towards she was likely guilty, I could not have in good conscience have convicted her of any of the first 3 counts, especially count 1 with the DP.

When CM pulled out the chart, and stated that even a strong belief that she was guilty did not meet the burden of proof needed, and no objection was voiced by the PT nor the judge, well, it made me realize that BARD is a very high standard of proof, and the state simply did not supply that proof. The majority disagrees with my opinion that the state did not supply the proof necessary, however, 12 strangers from Pinellas county do agree with me.

If you apply Occam's Razor to the verdict, the simplest answer as to how they reached the not guilty on the first 3 counts is that the state failed to convince the jury BARD with the evidence presented.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

Hi There DA: First I would like to say that your posts are well thought out and very articulate though my thoughts do not go down the same roads. When CM pulled out that chart, I thought it could be trouble for a conviction. But again, that chart is still not evidence of any sort. So when I heard the jury instructions, I was somewhat relieved because it clarified for me what the jury should consider:
Whenever the words "reasonable doubt" are used you must consider the following:
A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt.Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt. On the other hand, if, after carefully considering, comparing and weighing all the evidence, there is not an abiding conviction of guilt, or, if, having a conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt and you must find the defendant not guilty because the doubt is reasonable.
It is to the evidence introduced in this trial, and to it alone, that you are to look for that proof.
A reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the defendant may arise from the evidence, conflict in the evidence or the lack of evidence.If you have a reasonable doubt, you should find the defendant not guilty. If you have no reasonable doubt, you should find the defendant guilty.

CM's chart was very simplistic. The jurors should have been reading and debating the juror instructions. Not going by what CM's chart said. But then again, the jury consultant stated she knew the jury they had and it worked. We here were not on the jury but I'm sure just that part of the instructions alone could be debated many hours and days. IMO, they had very little, if any discussion about it. IMO, they were engaging in mere possible doubt, speculative, imaginary and forced doubt. Outlandish talk, confirmed by the foreman, that GA could have killed Caylee. If they had applied Occam's Razor, they would have concluded that FCA had access to the tape, laundry bags, etc. and was the only person with anything to gain by the death of Caylee(proven IMO by the 31 days which the foreman said they weren't allowed to consider even though it was presented as evidence at the trial).

And I believe that some jurors did have "abiding conviction of guilt". #2 who admitted he was the last holdout and finally agreed to just go along with what the rest wanted. Yes, he admitted this. And perhaps the lady who was crying during the reading of the verdict. We have not heard from her. I believe the abiding conviction of guilt was present in their own minds but for whatever reason, they did not have the guts to see it through.

For me to find reasonable doubt, I would have to believe that the duct tape got there by accident and/or that GA killed Caylee. Based on the testimony of the anthropologist about examining thousands of skelotonized bodies and only seeing ONE with a mandible attached-which was attached with duct tape-I cannot write off the fact that the tape was placed there purposely. To think that GA placed it there can only be characterized as speculative, imaginary thinking. Occam's Razor tells me that FCA is guilty as heck of child abuse and murder. There were 6 different counts for the jury to consider related to the murder and 2 counts related to child abuse. I have included the link for the complete instructions.

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/04/jury-instructions-in-the-casey-anthony-trial/

 

[Whisperer]

Where is the mother of Caylee now? I say she is living on the vision and meditation farm belonging to Dorothy Clay Simms. I bet that is where she picked up that exhausting nauseating and dramatic Grief Lady. Dollars to donuts they are best friends.

KC went to the St. Johns Probation dept....that is near Simms Retreat.

We were told that the former defendant is receiving spiritual counseling. Yep, that's what Dorothy does in her non-profit retreat....she hires Buddhist priests or w/e they're called.

Yep, it is my opinion that Caylee's murderer is on the Vision and Meditation Farm.

KC's next crime may be committed while she is chanting...

 

[Whisperer]

I do not think it is possible to explain Reasonable Doubt to people who are emotionally driven...period. Some base opinions on logic; others use emotion. If you know your jury, you know how to proceed.

I will repeat myself but this term is not understood by many jurors. Baez and Mason knew it and played the jury like a violin. They also knew the demogrogs of the jury which pretty much assured them an emotionally based set of people.

They primed them in Voir dire and never let up all through the trial. They added a phrase to the end of reasonable doubt which is tricky and confusing. The jurors fell for every gimmick the DT did.

 

[BellaVita]

Oh boy am I ever happy I have not seen these interviews. And Ms. Ford is a nurse? Does not bode well for critical thinking skills or asking questions where necessary.

There were 11 other people there to share questions and comments with and a full Court staff to provide all necessary materials. These peeps just wanted to go home and probably thought they were all going to get handsome payments for interviews and appear to be "brilliant." Lol. Maybe they should take the money they have so far and just run away from any further interviews. :crazy:

I believe you are on to something here. You express what my thoughts have been since hearing the foreman and JF speak. Perhaps there were other jurors with the same mindset. It is almost as if the verdict itself was not important at all but rather a means to an end for these people. Almost as if a Not Guilty verdict somehow elevated them above the majority and gave special status to them for being so impartial, independent thinkers, etc. Almost like they think it makes them better than other people for what they did. And it was said that there were some jurors who were never going to vote guilty on anything, no matter what. Can't imagine those jurors did much deliberating.

It seems some of these jurors did not regard their duties in the solemn, respectful way required but instead were more interested in sending a big F U message to the system. They thought it would make for a much more sensational media blitz and they would be commended for their courage. But they wanted to be paid for that courage, thus a media room which was empty of jurors on verdict day.

Perhaps if the jurors who have spoken had actually been articulate with well-formed thoughts it would have been a better story. But their own statements showed how dismal their reasoning was. Many here have said there is something so hinky about the jury but couldn't put their finger on it. IMO, there was some really wierd psychology going on.

 

[Harmony 2]

We have a broken quote above.
Hey MarthaM. Do you really belive that evidence should be reliable or not?

I corrected several broken quotes.

~FYI~

If you break a quote for some reason, you can manually fix it. Just make sure your quote begins with

and ends with [/ quote] (removing space between / and quote)

If broken quotes keep getting quoted it gets very confusing as to who said what and it becomes a tedious task for the moderator to go back and figure it out...

:seeya:

 

[Murphismo]

I have a question for everyone, it's been gnawing at me.... Assuming duct tape was the murder weapon, why didn't she remove it before disposing of the body? Any ideas?

 

[logicalgirl]

I corrected several broken quotes.

~FYI~

If you break a quote for some reason, you can manually fix it. Just make sure your quote begins with

and ends with [/ quote] (removing space between / and quote)

If broken quotes keep getting quoted it gets very confusing as to who said what and it becomes a tedious task for the moderator to go back and figure it out...

:seeya:

Harmony2!!!!!! :seeya::blowkiss: Long time no see!

 

[logicalgirl]

I have a question for everyone, it's been gnawing at me.... Assuming duct tape was the murder weapon, why didn't she remove it before disposing of the body? Any ideas?

For the same reason she dumped Caylee's body a couple of blocks away, and for the same reason she stole money from Amy. This woman does not think an action through to the end to consider the end consequences of her actions.

 

[cityslick]

Yet she was smart enough to not only look up chloroform, but actually make it, use it, then dispose of its contents. Doesn't really add up unless she didn't put thought into the duct tape because she thought they would never find caylee

 

[NavySubMom]

I have a question for everyone, it's been gnawing at me.... Assuming duct tape was the murder weapon, why didn't she remove it before disposing of the body? Any ideas?

I think it is because of the state of decomp poor little Caylee was in by that time.

I have no other way to describe it other than Casey would have taken half of Caylee's face away if she tried to remove it, parts of Caylee's body were probably already getting very messy, I believe she put Caylee in the several bags after she had been in the trunk for a while in that VERY HOT HOT florida sun/weather, Casey had no idea about how the decomp would progress, and the bags were because that is how she had to transport her because of the decomp. The tape may have already started to slide down as part of Caylee's face had been in stages of decomp already. To remove the tape at that time would have been more than even Casey could deal with. Too messy and she wanted to just get rid of her as quickly as possible, Caylee's body was probably difficult to deal with due to decomp.

the smell was probably horrendous and Casey had to smell that smell for quite a while, wonder if she can still smell it in her head at times today?

I feel bad even typing that. MOO, IMO. etc.

 

[marge_rita]

Agree - smothering is probably the number one way that mothers murder their children. Especially if they are young children and still small.

I'll throw this out there - I have never been comfortable with the chloroform. I'm not sure Casey ever made any, ever used it on Caylee or that there was ever an unusual amount of chloroform in that car trunk. The google search that is apparently now only a single search is explained easily by curiosity aroused by the post Ricardo made. She maybe even searched for how to make some thinking it would be a fun sex drug. But I don't think the computer search can be used as definitive evidence that she was planning something nefarious with chloroform. There's no evidence she ever made any or purchased any supplies to make any. As far as the car is concerned I think that since we don't have studies to tell us how much chloroform there should be in that type of car with that type of carpet or how those elements would react with cleaning agents, gasoline etc. and if the trunk was closed for a time allowing levels to accumulate..etc. Dr. Vass couldn't quantify his measurements or compare them to what levels would be obtained if testing was done using similar elements (car, carpet, decomp etc.) with the added cleaning agents plus the time, temp., sealed conditions etc. In that case - given what the prosecution could prove about the chloroform, which was basically nothing - I think they should have seriously laid off the chloroform theory.

I think Casey smothered Caylee with the duct tape. Plain and simple. Crediting her with being a sly, evil genius who researched, manufactured and successfully murdered someone with chloroform all while leaving no trace of her activities made the whole thing seem too Hollywood and too far fetched to the jurors. New, untested science is too confusing for people like the jurors in this case. Sadly I think the prosecution got taken for a ride by the falsely high number of searches that were reported to be found on Casey's computer. That ride took them off into fantasy land rather than sticking with what I believe this murder was, a smothering death - common and ordinary. Just like Casey herself.

Actually no, smothering is not the way most mothers kill their children. Statistically mothers who kill their children do so in water.


http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/9/1578

 

[marge_rita]

I believe Caylee was murdered by her mother...this was no accident. You don't need three layers of tape to stage a murder when one would have sufficed. She intently and wickedly smothered her daughter to death.
I think the chloroform came from dry cleaning fluid the grandparents used to clean the stain and carpet. It had been said that the car was very dirty when at the tow yard. It was cleaned expertly. GA used to detail out cars professionally. I bet he kept some of the cleaner he used in his garage. Dry cleaning fluid has chloroform in it.

I don't think he saw the two on the sixteenth...but that is all the State had to go on. This child was found w/o shoes.George described shoes...there were none. There were no child shoes in the car either. Caylee's mother snagged her out of Cindy's arms on the night of the fifteenth and ran out to the garage with her. She grabbed tape from the shelf and a steak knife from the kitchen and drove around the corner.

bbm
thank you

imo

 

[Harmony 2]

logicalgirl

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

:blowkiss:

 

[Murphismo]

I know this is kicking a dead horse (kick). But there are basically three camps on this site. A. FCA is innocent (I"m going to ignore this camp). B. She's guilty C. She's not guilty because the state didn't prove its case and reasonable doubt existed. There are only two words for this standard, "doubt" and "reasonable". Dear pinellas 12 - forget George, forget "cause" of death, forget motive, forget time of death, forget Caylee was ever in the trunk. We know she's dead. If we look back in history, EVERY single person who was NEVER reported missing with the exception of the elderly and sick who live alone with no friends, or the homeless, have EVER been ruled anything OTHER than a homocide. Is it "reasonable" to say this is the first case EVER? With all other things being equal and irrelevant would a normal person faced with the prospect of finding a dead body dumped in a swamp come to the reasonable conclusion based on two choices of accidental or homicide - look at the body based on everything we know about history conclude the body was the result of an accident and not a homicide???? It gets even more compelling when the ONLY evidence that is was an accident comes directly from the mouth of a self-admitted compulsive liar?? Is that REASONABLE??????