Sidney Moorer pretrial hearing - 18 April 2016

[U2forever]

I couldn't help myself. I just had to drive by the compound, on my way home, and see those signs they put out. What a circus. They're like carnies. I thought about taking some pictures, but I know that's what they want, so I didn't oblige. That, and I didn't want to end up on their cameras. All of the signs are in PC's yard, which got me to thinking about my own mom and whether she would allow me to do such a thing at her house. The answer, regardless of whether their claims are true, is HELL NO! The mentality of these people is alien to me. I haven't taken enough psychology classes in my lifetime to ever understand their collective mindset. I think that's why we all have a hard time coming up with the perfect theory of what happened that night; it's damn near impossible to think like them.

BBM:
HaHaHa, carnies!!! :floorlaugh:
They are the new carnies because the old carnies don't have chiclet teeth.

 

[Madeleine74]

There is a different in luring out with the intent to harm and a man feeding a woman a line in order to try and convince her to meet with him (no intent to harm). You seemed to be having a difficult time understanding the timing, so I offered a theory based on the latter. I don't think Bree will be able to tell us whether Sidney sincerely wanted to see Heather or he lured her out with the intent to harm.

I agree we can't know the initial intent of what SM was planning and if he was sincere or insincere in what he told Heather when they first spoke, if what he said was the truth or a complete fabrication.

IF SM went to PTL and brought "the missus" and he knew Heather was on her way there, he had to know there would be some kind of showdown/ugly event that would eventually occur .. up to and including, maybe/possibly, someone getting hurt or killed. Tammy had made several threats before and SM had to know how she felt about having competition in the form of a 20 yr old. It doesn't appear 2 of the M's vehicles went to PTL that night, so if one believes TM was in on it or was the mastermind of whatever occurred and there too, she had to have ridden with SM to PTL in his black truck. At that point SM's initial intent, even if it was innocent, changes to premeditated if his actions contribute to Heather's death. I don't think PTL is where heather died, it's where I think they abducted or coerced her to go with them.

Why did SM have to see Heather that night/morning? Why did Heather need to go to PTL? What was so urgent?

 

[magnolia]

I couldn't help myself. I just had to drive by the compound, on my way home, and see those signs they put out. What a circus. They're like carnies. I thought about taking some pictures, but I know that's what they want, so I didn't oblige. That, and I didn't want to end up on their cameras. All of the signs are in PC's yard, which got me to thinking about my own mom and whether she would allow me to do such a thing at her house. The answer, regardless of whether their claims are true, is HELL NO! The mentality of these people is alien to me. I haven't taken enough psychology classes in my lifetime to ever understand their collective mindset. I think that's why we all have a hard time coming up with the perfect theory of what happened that night; it's damn near impossible to think like them.

BBM --

That's exactly right. We're not discussing typical, average people here. If in the legal trouble they are in, putting up signs would be the last thing on my mind.

 

[stillwatersc]

Timelines thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?238748-Timelines-*No-Discussion-Thread*

Especially this post:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...No-Discussion-Thread*&p=10359684#post10359684

Oct: The relationship between Heather and SM ended, per LE

Nov 1: TM texted threatening messages to Heather; Heather responded that she wasn't anyone TM needed to worry about anymore

Nov 5: TM texted a message to Heather that "dad" no longer owned a phone; Heather responded with only a period

Nov 5-Dec 18: Heather had no known contact with SM

Nov 5: Heather tweeted "66 days" on Twitter, and retweeted a Daniel Tosh quote about "married fellas" cheating on or murdering their wives

Nov 19: The M family left on a cross-country driving trip to Disneyland in California

Nov 29: Heather's last tweet on her public Twitter account

Dec 4/5: Heather moved into the apartment with BW

Dec 11: The M family returned home from their trip to California

IMO SM planned the road trip to give TM time to calm down, but it didn't work and she was still furious and out for blood when they returned.

When did BW leave for Florida & when did she plan to return? Did the M's know Heather was alone? I believe they did.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Did T do a trip report at the Dis website for the California trip like she did the other trips?

I forget, or did they take the trip report down?

 

[stillwatersc]

Thanks to Verified Insider Delta Dawn for this post from 03/19/2014 concerning the M's California Disney trip:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ec-2013-30***ARREST**&p=10355116#post10355116

A few things that stick out most of all are the lack of photos and the spontaneity of the trip. She hadn't mentioned it before and then all of the sudden they're driving across country. There were people in every state that they would have traveled through that was asking them to visit and she said they would and then she is giving reasons on the way back how they couldn't, that things had come up and she was ready to be home. Also, when reading the timeline presented Monday, it said they returned home on the 11th. I feel almost certain that she was still posting like they were on the way home on the 15th or 16th. I remember her posting that she was in one state (I think Texas) and then just mere hours later she was home. I thought they had gotten home so fast. I guess if she was already home but making it to look like she was not, that would explain some of that.

 

[magnolia]

I agree we can't know the initial intent of what SM was planning and if he was sincere or insincere in what he told Heather when they first spoke, if what he said was the truth or a complete fabrication.

IF SM went to PTL and brought "the missus" and he knew Heather was on her way there, he had to know there would be some kind of showdown/ugly event that would eventually occur .. up to and including, maybe/possibly, someone getting hurt or killed. Tammy had made several threats before and SM had to know how she felt about having competition in the form of a 20 yr old. It doesn't appear 2 of the M's vehicles went to PTL that night, so if one believes TM was in on it or was the mastermind of whatever occurred and there too, she had to have ridden with SM to PTL in his black truck. At that point SM's initial intent, even if it was innocent, changes to premeditated if his actions contribute to Heather's death. I don't think PTL is where heather died, it's where I think they abducted or coerced her to go with them.

Why did SM have to see Heather that night/morning? Why did Heather need to go to PTL? What was so urgent?

My focus was on his initial intent. His intent when he made the pay phone call to Heather. Your post reflects the belief that my theory absolves Sidney. That is not the case at all.

 

[meinmyrtlebeach]

I posted this a LONG time ago, but will give my thoughts/theory again. I think SM's intent that night, wasn't to "lure" her, or anything bad. I think he had been "good" for a while since TM had his phone or at least he knew she was checking it, so he wasn't able to contact HE that night using his cell. So my theory is that he was out working and was finished and thought perhaps he'd give a quick call to HE and see if he could convince her to see him again. Probably thinking he could get laid or whatever. That's why the payphone(which would probably have been in between his work that night and his home and Heather's apt. Now, it seems to me that he called her and she said no initially. Or she said let me think. Either way, she then called Bri. Then at some point(I think it was 10 or 20 minutes after his initial call) she calls the payphone back. No answer. So she then calls his cell(not knowing that he has either arrived home now, or that TM actually has his phone)

From what I remember, it wasn't answered at first, but eventually after a call or two from her to SM's phone, it was answered and a 4 minute phone call ensued. I believe that TM MADE him answer that call, and MADE him tell her to meet at PTL. It appears from her phone pings that she then headed to PTL, as did the M's from the video evidence we've seen. She arrived first. Called him a couple times probably to say "I'm here, where are you?" etc.

Eventually, he shows up, she locks her car up and takes her keys and her phone, and jumps in the passenger side of the truck. TM is sitting in the back seat of the truck ducking down, and as soon as the door is closed she reaches up and somehow strangles hurts her neck. This won't hardly leave any DNA in the truck. No gunshot to hear. No knife to try to clean up blood/dna.

This seems the most plausible and explains the phone calls perfectly in my opinion. The only problem I have is these two don't seem bright enough to do the perfect crime, so how in the world did they then go and put her body somewhere that it couldn't be found. The only way it seems possible is that they panicked and placed her body into a dumpster that was then picked up unknowingly the following day or so and dumped at the landfill. I know there are so many trucks dumping each day there, that by the time a week or two later when they began searching, the landfill would have been completely dumped over and over again on top of previous loads.

Does any of that make sense? Or am I missing something?

 

[Madeleine74]

Does any of that make sense? Or am I missing something?

I believe it was that same evening that SM & TM were driving around and having sex in their car and taking photos of this. That would change the story as TM would have been around and SM wouldn't have been at work or at work late. We know Heather was on a date and learning to drive a stick shift (per her last photo & email to her father that night) and she got home right before 2am.

 

[meinmyrtlebeach]

I believe it was that same evening that SM & TM were driving around and having sex in their car and taking photos of this. That would change the story as TM would have been around and SM wouldn't have been at work or at work late. We know Heather was on a date and learning to drive a stick shift (per her last photo & email to her father that night) and she got home right before 2am.

Do we KNOW they were doing that other than the "alibi" that they tried to offer the police by SAYING they were doing that? I didn't see if it was confirmed there were pictures, or if this was just what the TOLD LE to try to create an alibi?

 

[jillycat]

I posted this a LONG time ago, but will give my thoughts/theory again. I think SM's intent that night, wasn't to "lure" her, or anything bad. I think he had been "good" for a while since TM had his phone or at least he knew she was checking it, so he wasn't able to contact HE that night using his cell. So my theory is that he was out working and was finished and thought perhaps he'd give a quick call to HE and see if he could convince her to see him again. Probably thinking he could get laid or whatever. That's why the payphone(which would probably have been in between his work that night and his home and Heather's apt. Now, it seems to me that he called her and she said no initially. Or she said let me think. Either way, she then called Bri. Then at some point(I think it was 10 or 20 minutes after his initial call) she calls the payphone back. No answer. So she then calls his cell(not knowing that he has either arrived home now, or that TM actually has his phone)

From what I remember, it wasn't answered at first, but eventually after a call or two from her to SM's phone, it was answered and a 4 minute phone call ensued. I believe that TM MADE him answer that call, and MADE him tell her to meet at PTL. It appears from her phone pings that she then headed to PTL, as did the M's from the video evidence we've seen. She arrived first. Called him a couple times probably to say "I'm here, where are you?" etc.

Eventually, he shows up, she locks her car up and takes her keys and her phone, and jumps in the passenger side of the truck. TM is sitting in the back seat of the truck ducking down, and as soon as the door is closed she reaches up and somehow strangles hurts her neck. This won't hardly leave any DNA in the truck. No gunshot to hear. No knife to try to clean up blood/dna.

This seems the most plausible and explains the phone calls perfectly in my opinion. The only problem I have is these two don't seem bright enough to do the perfect crime, so how in the world did they then go and put her body somewhere that it couldn't be found. The only way it seems possible is that they panicked and placed her body into a dumpster that was then picked up unknowingly the following day or so and dumped at the landfill. I know there are so many trucks dumping each day there, that by the time a week or two later when they began searching, the landfill would have been completely dumped over and over again on top of previous loads.

Does any of that make sense? Or am I missing something?

Somewhere she reasoned that it made sense to call him on the cell phone that he appeared not to have after not being able to reach him at the pay phone. Even when I consider that he might have initially called her from an unknown number because he thought she might not answer if she saw his cell number (which he would presumably have explained to her), it makes no sense that she called him back at that number. Then when I consider that he may have claimed or truthfully said that TM had control of his cell, it makes even less sense that she then called it when she couldn't reach him at the pay phone.

I've also never thought it made sense that she would think he'd be hanging out at a pay phone awaiting a return call - unless as you say she had told him she wanted to think about it. But there we go again with she then called the cell. And she was on her social media posting poetry or lyrics (or whatever it was) while coming to a decision about whether or not to have contact with him?

I don't think there's any "eventually" to his arrival at PTL. That timeline is way tight between her arrival, her three back to back to calls, and the 3:41 time when her phone stopped working. Then they peeled out of PTL headed back in the direction of their home, so we are talking moments from her arrival to when the M's were back on the road from the landing, having disabled her and the phone and gotten her under control.

I can't imagine that TM was effectively strangling her while Heather left no DNA from involuntary physical response to the trauma, and SM just kept on driving without a blip or hiccup.

I don't mean to be overly critical of your scenario, surely we are all trying to figure this out, and I don't know that I have a better scenario. But, I do think that if I'm correct that the chain of events is not what it appears to be, the PTL activities are perhaps very different from what's assumed. I think this is where the state lost its murder case. It just does not add up as they presented it.

Bottom line, this is a case where I've always felt I grasp or have insights into what didn't happen more than what likely did. Although, it seems like what didn't happen somewhat points to what did or might have. JMO

 

[jillycat]

Do we KNOW they were doing that other than the "alibi" that they tried to offer the police by SAYING they were doing that? I didn't see if it was confirmed there were pictures, or if this was just what the TOLD LE to try to create an alibi?

I recall that there were incidents of IE prior to that night and something about TM sending photos sent to HE via text. I don't recall that it was verified that there was IE that night/morning.

 

[meinmyrtlebeach]

If they hadn't had any contact in over 2 months(supposedly) then would she have known that his phone was "taken away" or being monitored? I'm thinking she had no idea, she had moved on, and he called her out of the blue because he was out "alleycattin" on the way home from work and figured he'd give her a try. So when she tried to reach him back, she had no clue that she shouldn't call his cell, or didn't care at that point? I'm not sure. In any case, I agree...there's so much more we DON'T know which drives me nuts. Most of all, WHERE IS SHE?

 

[jillycat]

If they hadn't had any contact in over 2 months(supposedly) then would she have known that his phone was "taken away" or being monitored? I'm thinking she had no idea, she had moved on, and he called her out of the blue because he was out "alleycattin" on the way home from work and figured he'd give her a try. So when she tried to reach him back, she had no clue that she shouldn't call his cell, or didn't care at that point? I'm not sure. In any case, I agree...there's so much more we DON'T know which drives me nuts. Most of all, WHERE IS SHE?

I would think when he called her from a pay phone she would wonder why.

As for where she is, she's where she'll never be found because, in my view, this was planned and they had help.

 

[Madeleine74]

Do we KNOW they were doing that other than the "alibi" that they tried to offer the police by SAYING they were doing that? I didn't see if it was confirmed there were pictures, or if this was just what the TOLD LE to try to create an alibi?

I don't know the answer to that.

 

[Madeleine74]

]If they hadn't had any contact in over 2 months(supposedly) then would she have known that his phone was "taken away" or being monitored? I'm thinking she had no idea, [/B]she had moved on, and he called her out of the blue because he was out "alleycattin" on the way home from work and figured he'd give her a try. So when she tried to reach him back, she had no clue that she shouldn't call his cell, or didn't care at that point? I'm not sure. In any case, I agree...there's so much more we DON'T know which drives me nuts. Most of all, WHERE IS SHE?

She knew, as Tammy sent her a text message (several, actually) that basically told her Sidney no longer had a cell phone. She also said Heather could "deal with the Mrs."

 

[magnolia]

I believe it was that same evening that SM & TM were driving around and having sex in their car and taking photos of this. That would change the story as TM would have been around and SM wouldn't have been at work or at work late. We know Heather was on a date and learning to drive a stick shift (per her last photo & email to her father that night) and she got home right before 2am.

If I remember correctly, the alleged IE happened prior to that evening. It has also been discussed that Sidney worked a lot at night, after the business hours.

I feel certain, Sidney could have made a call to Heather, independent of Tammy. IMO

 

[Dixie E]

I posted this a LONG time ago, but will give my thoughts/theory again. I think SM's intent that night, wasn't to "lure" her, or anything bad. I think he had been "good" for a while since TM had his phone or at least he knew she was checking it, so he wasn't able to contact HE that night using his cell. So my theory is that he was out working and was finished and thought perhaps he'd give a quick call to HE and see if he could convince her to see him again. Probably thinking he could get laid or whatever. That's why the payphone(which would probably have been in between his work that night and his home and Heather's apt. Now, it seems to me that he called her and she said no initially. Or she said let me think. Either way, she then called Bri. Then at some point(I think it was 10 or 20 minutes after his initial call) she calls the payphone back. No answer. So she then calls his cell(not knowing that he has either arrived home now, or that TM actually has his phone)

From what I remember, it wasn't answered at first, but eventually after a call or two from her to SM's phone, it was answered and a 4 minute phone call ensued. I believe that TM MADE him answer that call, and MADE him tell her to meet at PTL. It appears from her phone pings that she then headed to PTL, as did the M's from the video evidence we've seen. She arrived first. Called him a couple times probably to say "I'm here, where are you?" etc.

Eventually, he shows up, she locks her car up and takes her keys and her phone, and jumps in the passenger side of the truck. TM is sitting in the back seat of the truck ducking down, and as soon as the door is closed she reaches up and somehow strangles hurts her neck. This won't hardly leave any DNA in the truck. No gunshot to hear. No knife to try to clean up blood/dna.

This seems the most plausible and explains the phone calls perfectly in my opinion. The only problem I have is these two don't seem bright enough to do the perfect crime, so how in the world did they then go and put her body somewhere that it couldn't be found. The only way it seems possible is that they panicked and placed her body into a dumpster that was then picked up unknowingly the following day or so and dumped at the landfill. I know there are so many trucks dumping each day there, that by the time a week or two later when they began searching, the landfill would have been completely dumped over and over again on top of previous loads.

Does any of that make sense? Or am I missing something?

I have always thought just what you said. I do believe that she was placed in a dumpster. I always thought that. Was there ever a search at the dump site?

 

[Madeleine74]

I think if Sidney really wanted to be in touch with Heather even during the time he had his phone taken away, he could have. For instance, he could have told someone at the Tilted Kilt where he did some work, and he could have arranged to use someone else's phone, or written a note to Heather & left it for someone (the manager or one of the other waitresses) to give to Heather. There would have been ways that did not depend on him using the cell phone (or using his own cell phone).

My issue is the time of night/morning and why it was *so important* for Sidney to get in touch with Heather that night. Let's say he was really planning to leave 'the Mrs' and wanted to let Heather know that. His intent is pure in that situation (with a nod to Magnolia) Okay, questions emerge...

- Why did Heather need to know this news at 2am?
- Did SM leave a message for Heather on her VM (I don't remember if he did or not). If not, why not?
- What was Heather supposed to do about the information right then and there?
- Sidney had use of a vehicle (his black truck). Why couldn't he have arranged to meet Heather the next day (or later that day after she got some sleep)?
- Why did SM need Heather to go to PTL? (as opposed to a diner or coffee shop or restaurant)
- And why did Heather need to go to PTL in the middle of the night?

This sequence of events implies some kind of urgency or expressed urgency. One can surmise that whatever SM said to Heather around 2:40am to 3am-ish (I forget the time of their call) convinced her to leave her apartment and drive to PTL to meet up with SM.

 

[jillycat]

I'm still trying to understand why she called a pay phone thinking he didn't have his cell, then called the cell and risked TM being right there or even answering it.