Sixteen years... back to the basics

DNA Solves
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DNA Solves
Hi all,
Sorry if this has been posted before but I couldn't locate anything thru a w/s search...
I received a greeting card today for my b-day from my g-mother. It was from Sunrise greetings - it had a pic which I am SURE is Jon Benet on the front - blowing a kiss - on the back of the card is "Angel Kiss" by Betty Cameron. I did a quick websearch and found nothing related to JB associated with sunrise greetings. Have y'all heard of this before?
Tx! tcc
 
Hi all,
Sorry if this has been posted before but I couldn't locate anything thru a w/s search...
I received a greeting card today for my b-day from my g-mother. It was from Sunrise greetings - it had a pic which I am SURE is Jon Benet on the front - blowing a kiss - on the back of the card is "Angel Kiss" by Betty Cameron. I did a quick websearch and found nothing related to JB associated with sunrise greetings. Have y'all heard of this before?
Tx! tcc

Is this your picture?

1087a-angel-kiss.jpg


If not, sorry. If so, it doesn't look to be Jonbenet from my view.
 
That is not JB. However, JB was photographed in a white ruffled dress, with a crown of baby's breath around her blonde curls. This photo can usually be seen if you Google her and click on the "image results".
 
Hello everyone. I took a long self imposed break from posting, however I have done a lot of reading in the mean time.

There are so many pieces of this puzzle that do not fit. Patsy changed her story for that morning too. That's the important thing in this case- the Rs changed their stories about many things. If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said. A big red flag for me (and a well-known defense attorney tactic when clients are guilty) was that the Rs refused to answer questions that had previously been asked. They also asked for the questions to be submitted in advance in writing, and refused to be questioned separately. All of these are BIG indications that they were hiding their previous lies. I am nit sure which of these outrageous demands were accommodated, but if the BPD didn't raise a stink AH would have just given the defense lawyers what they asked for.

I think the red flag for me was the special treatment the parents were issued from the first moments of the 911 call. The 'normal' avenues that LE follows when a child is missing, (start with the parents, step parents, boyfriends, other family members and work your way out), was not upheld.

It is pretty much impossible to solve a crime, when you don't question subjects immediately, keep a crime scene, (reported kidnapping), pristine, gather evidence in a timely fashion, (parents and BR's clothing, blanket JB was wrapped in, etc.).

You then allow the suspects the ability to demand how, when, what they will be asked, as well as by whom. Questions were to be submitted ahead of time in writing? Sheesh!! Odd to say the least, suspect to be a little more honest about it. I truly believe there were many in the local BPD that wanted to get this right and make sure that HB's killer(s) would be found and punished. The real question is why didn't that happen.

The time they left the White's can be somewhat verified- according to the Rs it was around 9 pm.I am sure the White's would have been questioned about this and given a reasonably correct answer. After that- it is all R's version, so we cannot corroborate much of it. They said they brought along gifts for friends who were not at the White's that day, and made at least 2 stops. The last stop they decided not to take as it was the furthest away and it was getting late. I suppose LE would have questioned the people they claimed to visit- the approximate time, whether JB came into the house or if they saw her awake, etc. We do not have evidence of those questions being asked, but they should have been.
The Rs claim to have arrived home between 9:30 and 10 PM, which sounds accurate given the time they left the party and made a few stops. At this point, it seems truthful. After that, it is backpedalling and "rearranging" the truth and events of the rest of the night. BR claimed his sister was awake and walked into the house, his parents claim she fell asleep in the car and was carried into the house. The truth is probably that she fell asleep in the car (as kids often do) but woke up when they arrived home and walked in. I believe BR's version rather than his parents, because regardless of his involvement or not, at that point BR would not have understood the necessity of lying about his sister being awake. In his mind (nearly 10 at the time) he just wouldn't be thinking about needing to lie about it and why. We already know his parents later admitted BR actually WAS awake that morning, but decided to say that he had been asleep the whole time because "it was easier and wouldn't be bothered being questioned".
Now...if your child is kidnapped from her room and murdered and found in a garrote in the basement wouldn't you WANT police to talk to your surviving child whose room was just down the hall? They admit themselves they never talked to him about that night. This offends reason. Just wouldn't happen in real life. One of the many red flags that scream LIE.
Because they admitted lying about BR being asleep, it isn't too much of a leap to understand that they were also lying about JB being awake.

As far as the rest of it- the parents tell conflicting stories then, too. JR said he played with a toy with BR. They said JB never woke up, then he said he read to her. They denied knowing about any bedtime snack which was PROVEN to be pineapple and the pineapple was still sitting out on a table.
The neighbor who heard the scream then claimed she didn't, then later (after she moved out of Boulder) that she did, indeed, hear a scream around midnight (the approx time of death) and her husband claimed to hear the scraping sounds (he described it as "metal scraping concrete" after his wife woke him up when she heard the scream. Not much more is known, not sure how much LE spoke to them or what they thought of it.

Please excuse me for editing your post, but in this example alone, there are at least three incidences of conflicting 'reports' by the R's. This should have been when the BPD declared the R's suspects and questioned them individually,since it hadn't been done before at this point, with any real conscious effort. People can remain suspects until they are cleared.

This is when it should have turned in to a full fledged murder investigation. Lawyers should not have the ability to prevent questioning, if a person is named a suspect in a murder investigation. In our great US, you have undeniable rights, for a lawyer to be present, or to refuse to answer a question. Not the right to refuse to be asked those questions.

The only reason I can see for the turn of events as they played out the way they did, is if BR was indeed guilty of a crime. Since LE, (Colorado government) had the responsibility to protect BR, due to his age, they couldn't really 'investigate.'


Thanks, but the previous 911 still bothers me. I've read that it was the Rs friend, (can't remember her name, but she was later referred to as PR's bulldog, or some such), who told the cops that the 911 call was an accident, and there was no emergency. Does anybody believe this? A 911 call from the same house where a murdered child was found, was a misdial? If the call was made, LE needs to investigate it....go back to that night, what led up to the call, every little detail of who said what, who all was there, and interrogate the lady who turned the cops away. I've also read that this lady said FW accidentally made the call. I'm not inclined to believe this, because how do you accidentally dial 911 instead of a regular number? If he was trying to call 411, a comb through of the phone records would verify it, and the 411 would be just a few seconds after the misdial. But, FW, was a grown man, so I can't imagine him hanging up on 911, or refusing to answer when they called back.

Susan Stein is a vortex. She was Patsy's bulldog, impersonates the BP Chief and doesn't pay any consequences for impersonating an officer. There were felonies involved in her little 'prank'.

She felt it was her duty to not only defend the R's, but to intimidate people who didn't see the R's the way she did.

She spoke through the speaker to the BPD officer(s), who responded to the 911 call and was able to convince them that there was no reason for them to investigate the call, or the reason behind it. Persuasive is one word I can think to describe her, if she were on my side. I would use other words, if she were not a 'friend.'
 
It has never been stated exactly who made that 911 call from the Rs home on the 23rd. It was the Rs friend Susan Stine who answered the door and gave the police some story which obviously they believed, as they did not demand to enter.
There have been various accounts of WHY the call was made...one version is that FW had called because his mother (who was also there) felt ill, but then recovered before police arrived. Other theories center on JB, who was found sitting on a staircase crying. When asked why she was crying, she said that she "didn't feel pretty".
Police never seemed to investigate this previous 911 call any further, even when a child was found dead in that same house 3 days later.
There are a great many questions that would have been asked if this case had gone to trial. But the DA did not WANT that (not did the Rs and their lawyers) because these were questions they did not want answered.
There were so many people who would have been questioned under oath on the witness stand- the coroner, the pediatrician, the party guests for BOTN nights (the 23 and 25). The business associates who were named as suspects by JR, the housekeeper LHP (also thrown under the bus) and most important, perhaps, FW, who was THERE as the body was found and knows the truth about whether JB did the things he claimed (give her mouth -to-mouth, for one thing). Had he done so, FW would have seen it and JR would not have had to ask Det. Arndt of his cold, blue, stiff daughter was dead.
JR also claimed to untie her wrists, which he said were tightly bound. The autopsy proved they were NOT. Really not even tied at all. And if they had been, rigor mortis at that point would have kept them frozen in that position even after the cords were untied. So we KNOW that was a lie.

There was also a lot of talk on the threads earlier about DP and the fact that he was present in the home that night of the 23rd. There have to be people that know what happened that night and JB's statement, when found crying on the stairs, doesn't sound like a pouting child but that of a very deeply hurt child.

JB was taught, through her Mothers and Grandmothers actions and I am sure words, that pretty is what was important.

Pageants gave her time with Mommy, ribbons, trophies, costumes, were on display, voice, dance lessons and photo portfolios were common.

I can't imagine how JB would have been hurt by being told she 'wasn't pretty'. What I do find odd, is that she didn't seek her Mothers or Fathers comfort. She instead was crying on the stairs alone, and someone outside the family found her and comforted her.

Who would have had the ability to hurt her with those words? PR, JR, JAR, BR DP? I doubt if DS could have been quite that influential on her, unless he and BR 'ganged up on her'.

(bbm)

IIRC, it was rumored/speculated at one time that FW was attempting to make an international call with the same prefixes he would have been using at work (dialing a "9" first to get an outside line). I don't buy it, but that was how that particular part of the "911" speculation started. The truth is, we just don't know why that call was placed, so speculative explanations are all we have.

Then why wouldn
t he have stayed on the line and explained what happened? If it was truly that situation, it could have been easily rectified.

I remember when we were about 8 or so. We would take out the phone book and do the crank calls, "Is your refrigerator running...'. We were usually laughing so hard we couldn't talk. But even children that age and younger have been taught in school that 911 is for emergencies.

There was certainly a LOT of subterfuge, if this was truly an innocent mistake or prank.

I have not posted here for a long time, but I frequently read. I know it was on the 23rd that JB was crying, and said she did not feel pretty.
If I remember right, it was the 24th that JB spent most of the day in her room, in bed. Was she really not feeling well, or was it because of some sexual trauma that happened on the
23rd, or was she punished for something and restricted to her room?
Did BR have a friend over on the 23rd, and did they do something to JB? The Ramsey home was very large. Patsy was very busy trying to get everything done, and perhaps was not aware of what the children were doing.

Poor darling. What would she have been punished for? I truly believe PR was not the most aware Mom. I think she had a strong feeling of safety in her home and let the children 'loose' to roam/play.

I do think she was actually more involved when the children were out of the confines of their home. There have been reports of JB not feeling well on the 24th and PR stating she worked on art projects or a jewelry making kit she got at the party at the Whites(?).

The quote you are referring to was Patsy speaking to LE. Keep in mind that BOTH parents maintain that the last time they saw JB was when they put her to bed and that they did not see her again until JR found her at 1:30 PM and she was placed under the Christmas tree.
In this conversation, Patsy kind of slipped up a bit- clearly stating that she "heard John screaming as he came up from the basement" when according to them he had NEVER GONE to the basement -until the next morning after police were already called to the house.
I think we can understand from her comment that after the head blow and JB's apparent death, this refers to JR and Patsy both screaming as they staged the body in the basement OR saw her in the basement after she had been killed/rendered unconscious by one of the other residents in the home that night. Possibilities? BR, JAR, BR & JAR, a friend of one of theirs (possibly someone going on the trip with them? ) and any combination of these.
Patsy also made suspicious statements about the red ink heart in JB's palm. At first she denied even knowing about it- then she claimed that it was a "pretty good little heart" implying that she had, in fact, seen it- then she backtracked after she realized what she said and claimed that she probably only remembered reading about it. Yet- she claimed NOT to have read the autopsy report, which is the only place this information was printed at that time. The heart shows up in crime scene/autopsy photos, but they claimed to never have seen/read them. Can't blame them here. I can't think of ANY parent of a dead child, regardless of the circumstance of death, who would look at autopsy photos or reports. But their comments prove that they had knowledge of the whereabouts of the body (the basement) and things about the body (the red ink heart in the palm of her hand) that would not have had UNLESS they saw her before that police arrived that morning. JB was covered by an afghan by the time Patsy "publicly" saw her in the living room under the tree.
Of course, as was usual when police questioned the Rs, any statement like this that clearly contradicts their version of events is simply ignored and allowed to pass without further probing.

Was this a case of hindsight? Can we now clearly see the lies/timeline changes/story changed, as we have it all here to scour? Or is this a case of the investigation being led/misled purposely?

As far as looking or not looking at autopsy photos or reports, the R's by this time had all the reports, printed transcripts of their interviews and the ability to control any/all further investigations involving their family.

How about the morphing abilities of JAT? Was he there? Not there? His Mother certainly couldn't answer questions after JR lawyered his first family up. Twists, changed, all leading to a lack of justice in the murder of JB.
 
It has never been stated exactly who made that 911 call from the Rs home on the 23rd. It was the Rs friend Susan Stine who answered the door and gave the police some story which obviously they believed, as they did not demand to enter.
There have been various accounts of WHY the call was made...one version is that FW had called because his mother (who was also there) felt ill, but then recovered before police arrived. Other theories center on JB, who was found sitting on a staircase crying. When asked why she was crying, she said that she "didn't feel pretty".
Police never seemed to investigate this previous 911 call any further, even when a child was found dead in that same house 3 days later.
There are a great many questions that would have been asked if this case had gone to trial. But the DA did not WANT that (not did the Rs and their lawyers) because these were questions they did not want answered.
There were so many people who would have been questioned under oath on the witness stand- the coroner, the pediatrician, the party guests for BOTN nights (the 23 and 25). The business associates who were named as suspects by JR, the housekeeper LHP (also thrown under the bus) and most important, perhaps, FW, who was THERE as the body was found and knows the truth about whether JB did the things he claimed (give her mouth -to-mouth, for one thing). Had he done so, FW would have seen it and JR would not have had to ask Det. Arndt of his cold, blue, stiff daughter was dead.
JR also claimed to untie her wrists, which he said were tightly bound. The autopsy proved they were NOT. Really not even tied at all. And if they had been, rigor mortis at that point would have kept them frozen in that position even after the cords were untied. So we KNOW that was a lie.

There was also a lot of talk on the threads earlier about DP and the fact that he was present in the home that night of the 23rd. There have to be people that know what happened that night and JB's statement, when found crying on the stairs, doesn't sound like a pouting child but that of a very deeply hurt child.

JB was taught, through her Mothers and Grandmothers actions and I am sure words, that pretty is what was important.

Pageants gave her time with Mommy, ribbons, trophies, costumes, were on display, voice, dance lessons and photo portfolios were common.

I can't imagine how JB would have been hurt by being told she 'wasn't pretty'. What I do find odd, is that she didn't seek her Mothers or Fathers comfort. She instead was crying on the stairs alone, and someone outside the family found her and comforted her.

Who would have had the ability to hurt her with those words? PR, JR, JAR, BR DP? I doubt if DS could have been quite that influential on her, unless he and BR 'ganged up on her'.

(bbm)

IIRC, it was rumored/speculated at one time that FW was attempting to make an international call with the same prefixes he would have been using at work (dialing a "9" first to get an outside line). I don't buy it, but that was how that particular part of the "911" speculation started. The truth is, we just don't know why that call was placed, so speculative explanations are all we have.

Then why wouldn
t he have stayed on the line and explained what happened? If it was truly that situation, it could have been easily rectified.

I remember when we were about 8 or so. We would take out the phone book and do the crank calls, "Is your refrigerator running...'. We were usually laughing so hard we couldn't talk. But even children that age and younger have been taught in school that 911 is for emergencies.

There was certainly a LOT of subterfuge, if this was truly an innocent mistake or prank.

I have not posted here for a long time, but I frequently read. I know it was on the 23rd that JB was crying, and said she did not feel pretty.
If I remember right, it was the 24th that JB spent most of the day in her room, in bed. Was she really not feeling well, or was it because of some sexual trauma that happened on the
23rd, or was she punished for something and restricted to her room?
Did BR have a friend over on the 23rd, and did they do something to JB? The Ramsey home was very large. Patsy was very busy trying to get everything done, and perhaps was not aware of what the children were doing.

Poor darling. What would she have been punished for? I truly believe PR was not the most aware Mom. I think she had a strong feeling of safety in her home and let the children 'loose' to roam/play.

I do think she was actually more involved when the children were out of the confines of their home. There have been reports of JB not feeling well on the 24th and PR stating she worked on art projects or a jewelry making kit she got at the party at the Whites(?).

The quote you are referring to was Patsy speaking to LE. Keep in mind that BOTH parents maintain that the last time they saw JB was when they put her to bed and that they did not see her again until JR found her at 1:30 PM and she was placed under the Christmas tree.
In this conversation, Patsy kind of slipped up a bit- clearly stating that she "heard John screaming as he came up from the basement" when according to them he had NEVER GONE to the basement -until the next morning after police were already called to the house.
I think we can understand from her comment that after the head blow and JB's apparent death, this refers to JR and Patsy both screaming as they staged the body in the basement OR saw her in the basement after she had been killed/rendered unconscious by one of the other residents in the home that night. Possibilities? BR, JAR, BR & JAR, a friend of one of theirs (possibly someone going on the trip with them? ) and any combination of these.
Patsy also made suspicious statements about the red ink heart in JB's palm. At first she denied even knowing about it- then she claimed that it was a "pretty good little heart" implying that she had, in fact, seen it- then she backtracked after she realized what she said and claimed that she probably only remembered reading about it. Yet- she claimed NOT to have read the autopsy report, which is the only place this information was printed at that time. The heart shows up in crime scene/autopsy photos, but they claimed to never have seen/read them. Can't blame them here. I can't think of ANY parent of a dead child, regardless of the circumstance of death, who would look at autopsy photos or reports. But their comments prove that they had knowledge of the whereabouts of the body (the basement) and things about the body (the red ink heart in the palm of her hand) that would not have had UNLESS they saw her before that police arrived that morning. JB was covered by an afghan by the time Patsy "publicly" saw her in the living room under the tree.
Of course, as was usual when police questioned the Rs, any statement like this that clearly contradicts their version of events is simply ignored and allowed to pass without further probing.

Was this a case of hindsight? Can we now clearly see the lies/timeline changes/story changed, as we have it all here to scour? Or is this a case of the investigation being led/misled purposely?

As far as looking or not looking at autopsy photos or reports, the R's by this time had all the reports, printed transcripts of their interviews and the ability to control any/all further investigations involving their family.

How about the morphing abilities of JAR? Was he there? Not there? His Mother certainly couldn't answer questions after JR lawyered his first family up. Twists, changed, all leading to a lack of justice in the murder of JB.
 
Indications are that the cord was pulled from behind- her killer did not see her face. And because there was no evidence of a struggle (no pushing of the tongue against her lips, etc or evidence of movement of the ligature) she was almost certainly unconscious. I believe they thought she was already dead. We know she wasn't because we have the autopsy, but being there at the time it wouldn't be apparent that she was alive if she was comatose or in shock- with lowered body temperature, and breathing so shallow it may not have been noticed.
When I speak of it not being "brutal" I mean the in the sense of the physical damage that could have been inflicted in a more violent killing, not the the nature of the crime, which is of course, brutal
Even her sexual assault as been described as not being as brutal as would be expected in a pedophile intruder killer.

I would hope that this would have been the end of the terror that JB experienced. She certainly was brutalized. I would like to hope that she didn't 'see' what was coming, however I think the child's scream, heard by the neighbor, signified the blow descending, as well as the fact that JB was fully aware of what was happening at the time.

I disagree that no parent would ever do this, though. This was the most personal attack that I have ever heard of, and who but a family member, would feel this much emotion towards a 6 year old child? Somebody got mad enough to crush JonBenet's skull, and IMO, nobody outside those closest to her, could ever have felt that much rage towards her. Everything pertaining to this crime, (down to the pen and paper used for the ransom note), leads right back to that house, so IMO, it's no big leap to think the murderer also came from that house. Actually, I find it almost impossible to believe that an outsider could have pulled all of this off. But, I do agree that somebody was trying to make a statement, at least for a few moments...like, ' How dare you, and you will NEVER make me this mad again'. IMO, this murder was about rage and then self preservation. All Moo.

This seems to me to be an act of instantaneous rage. A apur of the moment lashing out. Then came the cover up. There has been talk of the books JR and PR had in their book shelves. Some of them about true crime. A theory I have read, is that possibly the scene was staged using ideas from one of these books, or movies they had watched.

I seem to lean toward a BR theory, with JR and PR ensuring the case be so confusing and full of holes, that the finger pointing would never actually veer to the only child PR had left on this earth. I know, at times I forget how intelligent PR and JR are/were.

You may have read it, but it isn't true. She was NOT beaten. The coroner would have noted it, and the bruises would have been seen. There were very few bruises on JB- one on her rear right shoulder, in a place where it is easy to see that someone kneeled or pressed there while tying the cord, which was at the back of her neck. Other bruised were on a labia - a red flag for sexual assault, and others INSIDE her vagina. Sexual abuse is certain in this case. Bruising does not happen postmortem. This happened when she was alive.
Some parents do a lot worse, believe me.
BTW, I read it too, in a tabloid long ago. It is not factual.

I know she was alive when all of this occurred, but what do you think happened prior to the head blow and what occurred after? I think the sexual assault brought on the incident, but I hope she never regained consciousness for the rest.

Wasn't it Dr. Cyril Wecht that came up with the button theory? I could be totally mistaken, as I have been researching another case in which he is involved. I want to thank you DeeDee, for the ref. to the photo at FFJ. I can see what appears to be a sailboat of sorts, however, it does look a lot like a burn, with the raised edged.

I can't imagine why a medical examiner wouldn't have taken samples from such unusual looking marks? You would think it would have been done at the time to rule out burns.

There is NO indication the killer was proud of what he did. The body was hidden AND covered. And she was dressed, after a sexual assault. A pedophile/intruder killer wouldn't have bothered to do that. They would have displayed her in an offensive manner.
EVERY investigator recognized signs of remorse and un-doing in this case.

What a horrible truth this conveys. As you stated, who would be remorseful in such a situation.

There are NO fingernail marks, nor have they ever been officially identified as such. The marks you see are petechial hemorrhages. They are noted as such in the autopsy report, which I strongly recommend reading for those who haven't. It will help to clear up a lot of questions and misunderstanding. So would the autopsy photos.
Many people jump all over the "fingernail" marks and say that it proves she struggled. She did not. There were no fingernail marks.

The undoing was the redressing and wrapping her in her blanket. There is some evidence that a Barbie doll (1996 Holiday Barbie) was reported to be in the room with her and appears in some photos. The presence of her favorite pink Barbie nightgown may also indicate undoing if it was deliberately placed There is a possibility that it may have simply come out of the basement dryer (where the white blanket she was wrapped in came from) attached to the blanket by static cling. JR made a very telling slip when shown a crime photo of the wine cellar depicting the white blanket that JB had been wrapped in and shows the pink nightie lying on top of it. When police showed JR that photo he pointed to the nightie and said "that wasn't supposed to be there".
Neither was the white blanket and dead little girl, right? None of it was "supposed to be there". Yet once again, police simply let it go.

All I can say, is that I take comfort in the fact that she didn't struggle at that point. Remember this picture?

devildog.jpg



The blanket in the basement.
 
A couple of other red flags, and they are HUGE red flags, were the wetting and soiling issues from both JB and BR. It has been reported that he smeared feces on the wall, and in his psychological report, it stated that social services said he had an ongoing bedwetting problem. JB, also reportedly suffered from these same issues, and Kolar reported that she had feces covered chocolate in her bedroom. If these issues aren't indicative of some kind of abuse, then what Do they mean? Also, IMO, we don't have to look for clues that point to the Rs involvement. PR's fibers, wrapped in the garotte, tell an undeniable story, and the ransom note, screams her involvement. IMO, there's not a person on earth, besides PR, who would have worded that note, even close to the way it was phrased...'$118,000.00, hence, attache, proper burial, don't try to grow a brain John, fat cat, good southern common sense, It's up to you now John', and it was all topped off with an exclamation point.

What is a red flag to me, is the fact that JB was potty trained and then reverted back to wetting and soiling her bed. This is the reason I can not see Patsy going into such a rage, that she would kill JB over wetting the bed that night or morning. It was a common happening with JB as it had been and at times still was with BR.

Now, what was the reason for the reverse back to being incontinent? Different theories abound. Patsy's illness being one and of course children will revert to soiling their bed, when they are being molested, to try and keep their molester at bay.

This is the only thing that makes me take pause, to perhaps wonder if BR molested his sister. When she wet her bed, she would go into bed with BR. I do not believe however, that any incidents between siblings, would have been as physically traumatic as the events on the 23rd or after that date. I believe between them it would have been exploration, more looking, possibly some touching.

I have heard of JB wetting the bed but not burk's psychological report being released. I haven't heard of the poop being smeared either. As far as the wetting and poop thing. my son wet the bed and a few occasions smeared poop on the wall. I can gaurantee he was not abused; he has aspergers. I can't really put a lot of weight on them being abused just on that. If I can find something solid I can put that into the equation.

As far as the fibers in the garote, if I can see the fibers in the rope to where I can tell if it could have gotten there any other way; I will be swayed back to the ramseys did the actual murder. where can I see the fibers. All I was able to see was the autopsy photos.

And what happened to the practice sheets of paper from the ransom note tablet? And the roll of tape. Speaking of tape, I don't beleive for a second that a piece of duct tape can hold some ones mouth shut. It would have to at least be several long pieces.


I am not saying that I don't believe any of the non concrete clues; I just want to look at just what can be proven and see where it goes. I consider the fibers in the garote where it couldn't have gotton there any other way a good solid piece of evidence.

I know a few people with AS. Some adults and some children. The manifestations are different based on severity. What may be easy for one of my friends to grasp, is virtually impossible for another one of my friends.

There's no way to know for sure if/what BR experienced. I can say that if the R's were truthful and they never spoke of the night JB died, they did a great dis-service to BR. I don't know any 10 year olds who would not only not ask questions, but would not be angry, scared and upset, that a killer was loose and might want to harm them next.

It has been widely published that BR asked NO questions about his sisters death. He did tell LE about a stranger killing JB however. He had to have gotten that information somewhere. Also widely quoted is his statement that when told of his sisters death, he was asking if they could still go on the cruise. Sure a Disney cruise would be fun, but that seems an odd way to deal with the news.

Where some th Where some things are concerned, I don't have to actually, physically see evidence, to believe it. There were countless experts, who did their jobs, and it's not fair to not trust their word and expertise...so, I don't need to see PR's fibers with my own 2 eyes, to know they were there. They were there, that's a fact. So, how did her clothes fibers got wrapped up in a murder weapon? Really, there's only 1 logical explanation. I guess someone could make a case, that the real killer, in an attempt to frame PR, wrapped a few of her fibers around the garrotte, (while making sure he removed all of his own), and then went and wrote a note that sounded like PR trying to sound like a foreign faction, but I'm not buying it.

Certainly makes perfect sense to me! I guess that is one piece of evidence that couldn't be buried, although it was ignored.
 
JB's body was covered with an afghan (including her face/head) BEFORE Patsy came into the room and threw herself on top of her daughter. Patsy's fibers were found ENTWINED (not just on top of) in the KNOT- which was at the BACK of JB's neck. There is no physical way for those fibers to have gotten mixed so intimately with the cord through a blanket and also, the knot was against the FLOOR, as JB was lying on her back on the rug.
The same thing holds for the duct tape. Patsy's fibers there are even more impossible to explain. The tape was left behind in the basement, on the white blanket. Patsy claimed never to have gone in the basement wearing that jacket (she states this in one of her interviews). There was NO way Patsy's fibers got on the duct tape UNLESS she was there when it was applied.

I still find it fascinating that JR showered and changed, but that Patsy was in the same clothing and possibly make up from the previous night. You would think that PR would have been most concerned about removing herself physically from the crime scene.Sweaters are prone to shedding fibers.

Another point. Could this have to do with the fact that JR kept PR busy enough that she didn't have time to change, to throw suspicion her way? Either off of himself, or BR?



If their son HAD been involved, they would have been called over in the middle of the night to retrieve him/help deal with what happened. I always think of JRs comment "There were a lot of people there at 3 in the morning". Odd thing to say, right? He didn't supposedly call his friends till 6 am, after the 911 call and after being warned not to do so in the note (as if).
If this was the case and they WERE there in the night, they'd have gone home before the others were called. I have not seen any comments made by the other friends wondering where they were, but that doesn't mean anything because we don't actually know what they thought about it or if they were ever questioned about their absence.
It would have been helpful NOT to have them there because their demeanor may have given away that they knew what happened to JB. They may not have been able to hide how upset they were. So it was really better not to have them there.

That is a sobering thought! It would explain a lot though.

DeeDee, do you happen to have the quote by NP that states JB was only 'a little bit abused'. Or was she referring to her daughters?

The fact that DP was there the night of the party and flown out on the 24th, has always bothered me. Especially together with that quote and the fact that Patsy and the children stayed with N and DP during her cancer treatment. This has tended to lead me into a whole new direction away from DS and BR that night. I wonder if rather than being involved that night, the boys walked in on DP and JB?
 
I still find it fascinating that JR showered and changed, but that Patsy was in the same clothing and possibly make up from the previous night. You would think that PR would have been most concerned about removing herself physically from the crime scene.Sweaters are prone to shedding fibers.

Another point. Could this have to do with the fact that JR kept PR busy enough that she didn't have time to change, to throw suspicion her way? Either off of himself, or BR?





That is a sobering thought! It would explain a lot though.

DeeDee, do you happen to have the quote by NP that states JB was only 'a little bit abused'. Or was she referring to her daughters?

The fact that DP was there the night of the party and flown out on the 24th, has always bothered me. Especially together with that quote and the fact that Patsy and the children stayed with N and DP during her cancer treatment. This has tended to lead me into a whole new direction away from DS and BR that night. I wonder if rather than being involved that night, the boys walked in on DP and JB?

I don't have Nedra's quote. (I never bookmark stuff). But she was definitely referring to JB and not her own daughters when she made that comment. However, although there is no proof, there has long been speculation that Patsy and her sisters had been abused. DP being the perp is always a possibility. And I can see the Rs covering for him as readily as they would have covered for their son(s). However, I don't necessarily think the boys walked in on it. Could have happened, but isn't a necessary "ingredient" for DPDI.
 
I don't have Nedra's quote. (I never bookmark stuff). But she was definitely referring to JB and not her own daughters when she made that comment. However, although there is no proof, there has long been speculation that Patsy and her sisters had been abused. DP being the perp is always a possibility. And I can see the Rs covering for him as readily as they would have covered for their son(s). However, I don't necessarily think the boys walked in on it. Could have happened, but isn't a necessary "ingredient" for DPDI.

Hi guys, I have been reading everything you guys write about this case. I really hope that JB someday gets justice. I apologize if I am interrupting conversation, but I am curious who DP is? Thanks in advance:)
 
I don't have Nedra's quote. (I never bookmark stuff). But she was definitely referring to JB and not her own daughters when she made that comment. However, although there is no proof, there has long been speculation that Patsy and her sisters had been abused. DP being the perp is always a possibility. And I can see the Rs covering for him as readily as they would have covered for their son(s). However, I don't necessarily think the boys walked in on it. Could have happened, but isn't a necessary "ingredient" for DPDI.

BBM I firmly believe this. PR's reaction to the question was very telling. IMO, her body language gave her away. A multi-generational offender is not that rare either. I cannot imagine letting DP anywhere close to my child, but apparently PR had no problem with it.

I think if anyone outside of the immediate R family (JR, PR, BR, JAR) had anything at all to do with this murder, then DP is my #1 suspect. I don't link him in a direct way on the 26th, but more that he could have been the one molesting JBR (and possibly BR?) previously. I do think there is a link, either direct or indirect, between the prior abuse and the murder.

Another possibility I see is that PR was the abuser. I know it's not likely to be a woman, or mother, but it's possible. Add her own possible abuse as a child and the odds go up. Don't get PO'd at me everybody. I know that 99% of women abused as children would NEVER subject anyone else to the hell they went through! But there is always that one sick individual....and I do believe that PR was mentally ill. JMO "Delusional" is the word that always comes to mind.

I'm not married to any one individual being the abuser, or even that it was only one person. There are so many possibilities it's mind boggling. I'm not ready to discount any of the "players" yet.

*mods* I am NOT "diagnosing" PR as being mentally ill. I am simply stating :moo:
 
Hi guys, I have been reading everything you guys write about this case. I really hope that JB someday gets justice. I apologize if I am interrupting conversation, but I am curious who DP is? Thanks in advance:)

Hi Jessica! :seeya: You're not interrupting anything! DP = Donald Paugh, Patsy Ramsey's father.
BTW...thank you to all the good people here that answer all my questions! After 16 years of drifting in and out of this case it's hard to remember everything, and even harder to sift through the mountains of info floating through cyber space.
 
I still find it fascinating that JR showered and changed, but that Patsy was in the same clothing and possibly make up from the previous night. You would think that PR would have been most concerned about removing herself physically from the crime scene.Sweaters are prone to shedding fibers.

Another point. Could this have to do with the fact that JR kept PR busy enough that she didn't have time to change, to throw suspicion her way? Either off of himself, or BR?





That is a sobering thought! It would explain a lot though.

DeeDee, do you happen to have the quote by NP that states JB was only 'a little bit abused'. Or was she referring to her daughters?

The fact that DP was there the night of the party and flown out on the 24th, has always bothered me. Especially together with that quote and the fact that Patsy and the children stayed with N and DP during her cancer treatment. This has tended to lead me into a whole new direction away from DS and BR that night. I wonder if rather than being involved that night, the boys walked in on DP and JB?

I have always had suspisions about DP. Why didn't he wait until Christmas morning to watch his gradchildren open their presents? Was he supposed to leave when he did?
 
I don't have Nedra's quote. (I never bookmark stuff). But she was definitely referring to JB and not her own daughters when she made that comment. However, although there is no proof, there has long been speculation that Patsy and her sisters had been abused. DP being the perp is always a possibility. And I can see the Rs covering for him as readily as they would have covered for their son(s). However, I don't necessarily think the boys walked in on it. Could have happened, but isn't a necessary "ingredient" for DPDI.

DeeDee, you are an amazing encyclopedia, you don't have to 'bookmark', as you retain everything!!

I couldn't remember for sure, if she was referring to 'her family' or JB, so thank you for clearing it up. I remember now, it was when LE was asking about her bathroom habits and if she always would ask anyone to help her, no matter who they were.

4Jacy, that is why I find DP's sudden departure strange. I thought that originally, he was supposed to fly out with the family the 26th so he and Nedra could spend New Year together, but I could be oh so wrong on that one.

He lived in an apartment in Boulder, paid for by Access Graphics. DP was Vice President of operations.
 
I have always had suspisions about DP. Why didn't he wait until Christmas morning to watch his gradchildren open their presents? Was he supposed to leave when he did?

It was reported he flew back to Atlanta on Dec 24th: STANDBY. Really?
A corporate officer who wouldn't have made a verified reservation for a Christmas Eve flight from his city of business back to his home to share the holiday with his wife?

Sounds more like a quick "get out of Dodge" flight to me. Maybe that Dec 23 party was just more celebrating with the family than the old gent could handle?
 
DeeDee, do you happen to have the quote by NP that states JB was only 'a little bit abused'. Or was she referring to her daughters?
That quote has been on various forums for years, although I’m not sure that that is the actual quote. It may have simply “evolved.”
The only source for Nedra commenting on JonBenet being molested was the reference she made to a producer for the Geraldo show and later brought to light in Schiller’s book.
There may be a further source out there, but there isn’t one that I’m aware of.

When Nedra mentioned the crime, it was in a string of half-completed thoughts and seeming nonsequiturs: “I didn’t know that she had been mole…molested to some extent and hit on the head. I didn’t know that. And somehow I hoped that she had died very quickly, and I think that she did. I…I really do believe that whoever has done this strangled her, because I’m sure that she put up a tremendous fight. Although she had tape on her mouth, she couldn’t scream. But I knew she had fought.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 512 - 513
 

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