Sixteen years... back to the basics

[UKGuy]

It was reported he flew back to Atlanta on Dec 24th: STANDBY. Really?
A corporate officer who wouldn't have made a verified reservation for a Christmas Eve flight from his city of business back to his home to share the holiday with his wife?

Sounds more like a quick "get out of Dodge" flight to me. Maybe that Dec 23 party was just more celebrating with the family than the old gent could handle?

midwest mama,
Yes it looks curious. Had DP flown standby in a similar manner in the past?

The evidence does seem to suggest JonBenet was assaulted on 12/23. With her chronic injuries ranging back to that date, is for me, too much of a coincidence.

A corporate officer who wouldn't have made a verified reservation for a Christmas Eve flight from his city of business back to his home to share the holiday with his wife?

Given the time of year, what were his plans? With no reservation, does this imply he had intended to stay?

Then again what about Nedra, where does she fit it with DP's seasonal schedule?

Maybe he is a cheapskate, and just wanted a cheap deal? If he had flown this way before, could be he reckoned, I'l get a flight no bother?


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[SunnieRN]

So, back to basics. One of the most nagging thoughts I have always had, is, why, after finding JonBenet 'missing', thinking that she had been abducted, would the R's not immediately 'circle the wagons'?

Burke was not only left on another floor from his parents, 'sleeping', but was then whisked away, not to be reunited with his parents for quite some time. How could the R's be sure Burke was safe?

After JonBenet was 'discovered', dead, why did Burke or his parents appear not to further fear this group of foreign individuals that killed their precious baby?

Burke didn't have body guards, that I'm aware of. The R's continued to travel freely, seemingly without concern.

Had this been the family pattern all along? Patsy didn't even take JonBenet to pageants alone. Anywho, this is one thing that lets me truly believe John and Patsy Ramsey knew exactly what had happened in their house that night.

Secondly, perhaps even more importantly, taking the 'ransom note' into consideration, even if they could justify calling police, due to fear or panic, how could they justify having called their friends over?

I never heard the R's show remorse for calling the police, stating that they may have led to their daughter being murdered, since they didn't follow instructions in the note. Personally, if I hadn't been involved, I would have always wondered and questioned, if I had not been responsible for my child's death, due to not following the instructions laid out.

Thirdly, if I thought 'they' were 'watching', my first thought would have been to make sure 'they' didn't see anything suspicious. Where were they watching from? Why would I want to let 'them' see me having police at my home, then having friends over to the scene.

Really one long rambling thought, but it nags me, like a pin prick, when I think about this case.

 

[BOESP]

I wonder why Patsy wanted the first responding officer to remove his weapon and belt? Who would even think about asking for that after calling the police. Then I think about what Linda Arndt said about counting her bullets and Linda wondering about John.

My first thought is maybe Patsy was thinking the same thing that ran through Linda Arndt's mind???

I wonder why in their respective books Thomas and Schiller didn't report this odd request from Patsy?

 

[SunnieRN]

I wonder why Patsy wanted the first responding officer to remove his weapon and belt? Who would even think about asking for that after calling the police. Then I think about what Linda Arndt said about counting her bullets and Linda wondering about John.

My first thought is maybe Patsy was thinking the same thing that ran through Linda Arndt's mind???

I wonder why in their respective books Thomas and Schiller didn't report this odd request from Patsy?

The beginning is very interesting in and of itself, is it not??

 

[Darlene733510]

I found it strange that the light outside, that was always on, was turned off that night, and that the entrances to the house was cleanly swept, as there was a light snow.
JR was allowed to disappear for a period of time. Was it really to get the mail, or did he get rid of evidence?

 

[DeeDee249]

I found it strange that the light outside, that was always on, was turned off that night, and that the entrances to the house was cleanly swept, as there was a light snow.
JR was allowed to disappear for a period of time. Was it really to get the mail, or did he get rid of evidence?

The misconceptions about JR "getting the mail" have been around for years. Here is the real account: The R home had a MAIL SLOT in the FRONT DOOR. No one ever needed to "go get the mail". All he had to do was walk to his front door and pick it up off the floor.
Det. Arndt did this case a great disservice (one of many) when she made that irresponsible comment. Later, she admitted she said that because she saw him looking at mail and ASSUMED he had gone to get it during the 2 HOURS he was missing from her sight. In truth, she had no idea where he was or what he was doing or whether he left the house at all.
In truth, she had the ability to prevent contamination of the crime scene and prevent JR from moving about the house unsupervised- she simply failed to do so. She was faced with having to supervise the movements of several people, most of whom did NOT belong there, and she had a gun. She could have had them all sit in one room, and stayed there, gun drawn, and kept them there until reinforcements arrived.
I believe JR never left the house, and during the time he was "missing" he was in the basement, "adjusting" the crime scene or possibly secluded away somewhere making phone calls. Since the phone records, including cell phones, were not released to police, we'll never know.

 

[deca]

Maybe someone can clear up for me the whole private jet situation.
The Rs were supposed to fly that day to their second home for a second Christmas celebration. After the discovery of JB, JR attempted to leave the city via this same jet. Correct?
Question: Why the rush to leave? The R's could have stayed at the nicest hotel in town. They could have rented a house. Heck, they could have gone down to the dealership and bought an RV! I don't know why would would want to leave in the beginning of an investigation if you were a parent. Could it be that JR was trying to dispose of some evidence? Distance the family from the investigators? Stall any further interviews with the family members?

What I really want to know is if he talked to the pilot BEFORE he talked to the police that morning. Wouldn't that be something!

 

[dodie20]

BBM I firmly believe this. PR's reaction to the question was very telling. IMO, her body language gave her away. A multi-generational offender is not that rare either. I cannot imagine letting DP anywhere close to my child, but apparently PR had no problem with it.

I think if anyone outside of the immediate R family (JR, PR, BR, JAR) had anything at all to do with this murder, then DP is my #1 suspect. I don't link him in a direct way on the 26th, but more that he could have been the one molesting JBR (and possibly BR?) previously. I do think there is a link, either direct or indirect, between the prior abuse and the murder.

Another possibility I see is that PR was the abuser. I know it's not likely to be a woman, or mother, but it's possible. Add her own possible abuse as a child and the odds go up. Don't get PO'd at me everybody. I know that 99% of women abused as children would NEVER subject anyone else to the hell they went through! But there is always that one sick individual....and I do believe that PR was mentally ill. JMO "Delusional" is the word that always comes to mind.

I'm not married to any one individual being the abuser, or even that it was only one person. There are so many possibilities it's mind boggling. I'm not ready to discount any of the "players" yet.

*mods* I am NOT "diagnosing" PR as being mentally ill. I am simply stating :moo:

You're not alone, because I've also wondered if PR was the abuser. IMO, whoever was abusing JB, was the likely killer, and since PR wrote the note, IMO, the list of suspects gets narrowed way down...either she or somebody she would implicate herself for. IMO, the most likely scenario was... PR was the abuser, PR committed the murder, PR wrote the note to cover her hide. The only real nitpicky point, IMO, is if JB was found exactly as PR left her. For instance, did PR put the size 12 underwear on JB, or did JR, when he 1st found her. There have been varying times of when he actually discovered JB, and IMO, it's not out of the realm of possibility, to think he might have rearranged a few things. All just my opinion, based on my strong belief that PR wrote the note.

 

[UKGuy]

You're not alone, because I've also wondered if PR was the abuser. IMO, whoever was abusing JB, was the likely killer, and since PR wrote the note, IMO, the list of suspects gets narrowed way down...either she or somebody she would implicate herself for. IMO, the most likely scenario was... PR was the abuser, PR committed the murder, PR wrote the note to cover her hide. The only real nitpicky point, IMO, is if JB was found exactly as PR left her. For instance, did PR put the size 12 underwear on JB, or did JR, when he 1st found her. There have been varying times of when he actually discovered JB, and IMO, it's not out of the realm of possibility, to think he might have rearranged a few things. All just my opinion, based on my strong belief that PR wrote the note.

dodie20,
It could be PDI, then you have to explain away the size-12 Bloomingdales and Patsy's version of events.

The wine-cellar scenario was fabricated after JonBenet had sustained her injuries. These could have been inflicted in any bedroom, including her own, where, allegedly, Burke Ramsey's fecally stained pajama bottoms were found lying on her bedroom floor.

So could the fecal staining be a response to JonBenet becoming comatose, along with the fecal deposit?

Patsy and John were both involved in the staging but this seems to be a second attempt at staging, particularly if the primary crime-scene is upstairs.

What was Burke Ramsey wearing that morning when he was awoken from his slumbers, to be relocated away from the house?

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[UKGuy]

Maybe someone can clear up for me the whole private jet situation.
The Rs were supposed to fly that day to their second home for a second Christmas celebration. After the discovery of JB, JR attempted to leave the city via this same jet. Correct?
Question: Why the rush to leave? The R's could have stayed at the nicest hotel in town. They could have rented a house. Heck, they could have gone down to the dealership and bought an RV! I don't know why would would want to leave in the beginning of an investigation if you were a parent. Could it be that JR was trying to dispose of some evidence? Distance the family from the investigators? Stall any further interviews with the family members?

What I really want to know is if he talked to the pilot BEFORE he talked to the police that morning. Wouldn't that be something!

deca,
The staging suggests that the R's amended the staging to accord with a twin-pronged attempt to evade justice.

They likely hoped JonBenet would not be found and that they could then fly off interstate. They hedged their bets by making sure their version of events was that JonBenet was placed directly to bed, dressed as she was found in the wine-cellar.

After the discovery of JB, JR attempted to leave the city via this same jet. Correct?

This is correct, all while Burke Ramsey was elsewhere. So one wonders what their intentions there were?

Maybe he did talk with the pilot. I think JR had a cellphone, purchased as a gift by Patsy, so when he vanished that morning he could have phoned his pilot and told him to warm the plane up?

Question: Why the rush to leave?

Patently because the R's knew they were culpable!


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[DeeDee249]

Maybe someone can clear up for me the whole private jet situation.
The Rs were supposed to fly that day to their second home for a second Christmas celebration. After the discovery of JB, JR attempted to leave the city via this same jet. Correct?
Question: Why the rush to leave? The R's could have stayed at the nicest hotel in town. They could have rented a house. Heck, they could have gone down to the dealership and bought an RV! I don't know why would would want to leave in the beginning of an investigation if you were a parent. Could it be that JR was trying to dispose of some evidence? Distance the family from the investigators? Stall any further interviews with the family members?

What I really want to know is if he talked to the pilot BEFORE he talked to the police that morning. Wouldn't that be something!

Since the phone records are sealed by a judge, we'll never know who he called that morning.

As far as why they'd want to leave...well, that is easier to answer. If you are GUILTY or if other family members are GUILTY of killing JB or involved in the staging, then you'd want to leave ASAP. You know- get 'outta Dodge. In other words- a GETAWAY, only instead of a getaway car they had a getaway plane. There is simply NO valid, innocent reason why JR would want to leave. If they feared for their safety, they could have requested (and would have gotten) police protection or hired their own security.
Certainly distancing the family from investigators was of primary concern to JR as well. Look how fast he got BR (who was right down the hall from JB and may have seen or heard something that would have helped investigators) out of there.
They were very successful at stalling interviews anyway. In some cases, police had to wait YEARS to talk to them.

 

[SunnieRN]

Since the phone records are sealed by a judge, we'll never know who he called that morning.

As far as why they'd want to leave...well, that is easier to answer. If you are GUILTY or if other family members are GUILTY of killing JB or involved in the staging, then you'd want to leave ASAP. You know- get 'outta Dodge. In other words- a GETAWAY, only instead of a getaway car they had a getaway plane. There is simply NO valid, innocent reason why JR would want to leave. If they feared for their safety, they could have requested (and would have gotten) police protection or hired their own security.
Certainly distancing the family from investigators was of primary concern to JR as well. Look how fast he got BR (who was right down the hall from JB and may have seen or heard something that would have helped investigators) out of there.
They were very successful at stalling interviews anyway. In some cases, police had to wait YEARS to talk to them.

DeeDee, I agree with your entire post, however, if I knew where my daughter was hidden, which I 100% believe John knew, and she wasn't found by LE searching the home, I am not sure I would trust them to protect me, or my family. ;-)

This was a way to avoid questioning, pure and simple, just as you said!! What bothers me is that anywhere else in America, the parents are treated as suspects, whether deserved or undeserved, (Marc Klass, etc.) along with the investigation of outsiders. This not only wasn't handled that way, but the parents were given special treatment, that hampered the entire investigation. :furious:

 

[midwest mama]

Serious question: Does Garnett have the ability and/or power to request any of the formerly sealed records to be "unsealed"?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, I agree with your entire post, however, if I knew where my daughter was hidden, which I 100% believe John knew, and she wasn't found by LE searching the home, I am not sure I would trust them to protect me, or my family. ;-)

:

The thing is... if he knew where she was hidden, the only way he could know that is if he knew what happened to her. i.e.- knew who killed her (or killed her himself) and knew who hid her (or hid her himself) and in THAT case- he also knew he didn't need police protection for himself or his family. Boulder was safe...there WAS no kidnapper/pedophile/intruder/disgruntled employee/killer/housekeeper.

 

[DeeDee249]

Serious question: Does Garnett have the ability and/or power to request any of the formerly sealed records to be "unsealed"?

Not positive about this, but I believe he could petition the court to unseal the phone records. He'd have to indicate they have a direct impact on his ability to prosecute the case, for example, if there WERE middle-of-the-night phone calls to people that would be "suspicious" in light of the crime. Like his defense lawyers, the Governor, assistant Governor, the DA, etc.

 

[Darlene733510]

I have been thinking about those golf clubs JR had Pam remove from the house. There were 2 bags and 1 set of clubs in each bag(correct me if I am wrong). It was winter in CO, and Georgia has winter and snow. Michigan sometimes has snow until April. I know this because I lived there for 37 years.
What was the rush to get them out of the house. I don't think he would be playing golf for
quite some time. My first thought was that evidence was hidden there. Perhaps they were checked by BPD before they left the house????

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I have been thinking about those golf clubs JR had Pam remove from the house. There were 2 bags and 1 set of clubs in each bag(correct me if I am wrong). It was winter in CO, and Georgia has winter and snow. Michigan sometimes has snow until April. I know this because I lived there for 37 years.
What was the rush to get them out of the house. I don't think he would be playing golf for
quite some time. My first thought was that evidence was hidden there. Perhaps they were checked by BPD before they left the house????

There were also golf clubs thrown a closet in the train room, and I think Burke had a child size set. There was a golf club found out side that had a blonde hair on it. A red herring?

Were any of JonBenet's pageant trophies missing from JonBenet's bedroom? Could one of them been used in the head bash? PP did carry out a JonBenet's trophies and crowns when she raided the crime scene.

 

[Darlene733510]

Hi ILTBP - I thought of those trophies too. I also thought about the kitchen.
So many places where an item would be found to cause the head bash. Did we ever see a list of BR's Christmas presents? We're they fighting over one of the new toys that could have been used?
The BPD sure fell short on what should have been done; Like JR disappearing for
2 hours. This case should be reopened and all that has been sealed should be presented. BR's medical records alone would probably be a shocker. I just have the feeling there was a lot of jealousy towards JB. I think the cost of re-opening the case is what is holding back, and that they don't want to go up against Lin Wood.
Not to change the subject, but I wonder sometimes if any of the family, or friends read here. If they do and one of them caused her death or was an accessory, I don't know how they can live with the burden of what they did.
I would guess that they would prefer for people to put the blame on PR, and if she carried secrets to her grave we will never know.

 

[SunnieRN]

The thing is... if he knew where she was hidden, the only way he could know that is if he knew what happened to her. i.e.- knew who killed her (or killed her himself) and knew who hid her (or hid her himself) and in THAT case- he also knew he didn't need police protection for himself or his family. Boulder was safe...there WAS no kidnapper/pedophile/intruder/disgruntled employee/killer/housekeeper.

That's it in a nutshell DeeDee!!

 

[learnin]

otg,
From memory, as this has been discussed before. There was a collection of photos found in the basement with all or the vast majority depicting JonBenet as the subject, and the theme was the pageants, with JonBenet dressed in her outfits. I think it was the discovery of these pictures which led to the issuing of the search warrant for their out of state house, with the results being sealed.



From the line of questioning it seems its either the case there were pictures of JonBenet in the basement laundry, or it was a trick question, more so when Haney declines to assert yes they were found in the basement laundry.

This is similar to the size-12's. Haney may have been hoping that Patsy would hang herself, by saying something contradictory, better still aggreeing to their existence and location.

If its not a trick question then Haney is suggesting they have photographs of JonBenet taken in the basement laundry?

What we have not been told is the type of camera that took the photographs and where they were developed etc. Knowing this could quite quickly pin down the photographer.

IMO the photographs are prima facie evidence that someone appeared obsessed with JonBenet?


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Sorry for the lateness of this reply. I don't think Haney's question, about the laundry room, was a trick because he followed it up with the following: If JBR was doing something cute, acting cute, would you (PR) run up stairs and get the camera? This question seems legitimate because, if PR never took a pic there, then, there's no reason to lie. If she did take a pic there, she would have to admit it unless it was obscene or something.

As another poster said, it sounds like someone had a unnatural fascination for JBR. Now, who would do their fooling around down in the basement?