So who does Aphrodite Jones think is the killer is?

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Not sure what there is to discuss really.

Then allow me to refresh your memory:

Roy23 said:
Anyhow, carry on with your theory and I will listen. Subsequent DA's and LE still have this case on the burner and have yet to play their cards. Why?

SuperDave said:
I've been TELLING you why! WHO would they charge, and WITH what? See, that's the whole point of what I'm trying to tell you about the cross finger-pointing problem. You said you weren't going to buy that explanation, but you STILL haven't told me why. So before you do, maybe it would help if I told you about a few prosecutors--GOOD ones--who agree with me:

Bill Ritter, from PMPT:

That left prosecutors with the troubling question of which parent had knowingly caused the child's death. Until investigators could identify each parent's individual actions, two suspects meant no suspects.

And Vincent Bugliosi:

the inevitable question presents itself: which parent did it? A prosecutor can't argue to a jury, "Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is very clear the either Mr. or Mrs. Ramsey committed this murder and the other one covered it up." Even if you could prove that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note, that doesn't mean she committed the murder."

And if THAT's not enough, Wendy Murphy writes extensively about this case in her book, And Justice for Some, in which she outlines how the Ramsey case is the best-known example of cross finger-pointing in modern history.

Roy23 said:
Thanks for explaining that. And I have heard some of Wendy Murphy's theories but not in detail on that. As a matter of fact, I heard her mention that theory in regards to the Anthony trial. I may read some other books on this case if I ever get the time.

Anyhow thanks for your explanation. I am gonna let it sink in some.

Does that help?

Anyhow, I am still feeling the stinging burn of the Anthony verdict. I feel I need to step away a bit. I consider my interest in such cases a hobby now.

You're not the only one feeling it! Which is exactly WHY I feel we need to talk about these things.

You surprise me, Roy. I was going to ask if you were happy with the verdict in that case, since it seems to be exactly the kind of outcome that most IDIs want in this one. (You're not most IDIs, though. I know that.) Because for years the IDI side has argued that there's no way a loving mother with no known history of abuse could do something so terrible. Well, now you see what happens when people believe that nonsense.

Do you remember when I said that in this new world the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt had lost its proper meaning? This is the result: Casey Anthony walks free.

But since you seem legitimately upset over it, I won't twist the knife.

I know you feel JBR is a big miscarriage of justice. We both agree for different reasons.

No, no! That's not it, Roy. That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you: that JBR was NOT a miscarriage, it was an ABORTION!

What happened to Caylee Anthony was a miscarriage of justice. The prosecution did everything right, but Casey still walked because justice was placed in the hands of 12 people who were too stupid to get out of jury duty. THAT was a miscarriage of justice. JBR is different. Any chance for justice that case had was killed in utero by cowardice and politics.

NOW do you understand what I've been trying to say?

However, for me and I hope you will try and understand, I need a break after witnessing the Casey Anthony debacle. It has given me a deep heart ache and challenged my beliefs. I know we have the best system in the world but I am still trying to come up with the right thing to explain to my family on how this can happen.

Now you know how I feel.

I'll TELL you how it happened, Roy:

This is what happens when average jury pool is fed a distorted view of how the justice system works. Thanks to TV and shows like CSI, the average citizens, who make up juries, don't know what's real and what's fantasy anymore.
 
"No, no! That's not it, Roy. That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you: that JBR was NOT a miscarriage, it was an ABORTION!

What happened to Caylee Anthony was a miscarriage of justice. The prosecution did everything right, but Casey still walked because justice was placed in the hands of 12 people who were too stupid to get out of jury duty. THAT was a miscarriage of justice. JBR is different. Any chance for justice that case had was killed in utero by cowardice and politics.

NOW do you understand what I've been trying to say? "


How I feel about JBR can not be transformed into the Anthony case. AT ALL. Just like you I am a diehard conservative who believes in the DP. I believe JBR was killed by an intruder and he left his DNA. There is nothing else to discuss.

I can talk to you about Jury Pools and politics. I am certain we will agree in many different areas. None of that has to do with JBR in my mind. No reason for us to argue on it.

Back to Anthony case, I feel somewhat guilty because I have avoided serving. I even hesitate criticizing those 12 jurors. I mean my theory is that the CSI /Law Order has hurt us too. Why can't we use dang good ole common sense. (don't get started on JBR--we disagree). I believe most people are stupid but how do you get 12 people to agree in 10 hours that Casey Anthony is Not Guilty with Duct Tape holding the mandible in place.

I know they overcharged the case but they still proved it, IMO.
 
How I feel about JBR can not be transformed into the Anthony case. AT ALL.

It can for me, because in my opinion, they're not that much different. I was looking forward to Casey being convicted, if for no other reason than being able to come back here and point out how IDI is wrong: a mother CAN do these things to their child and a circumstantial case CAN work. But I'll take the consolation prize of knowing that I was right about how the idea of beyond a reasonable doubt has been distorted beyond recognition and something better be done about it.

Just like you I am a diehard conservative who believes in the DP.

How did you know?!

I believe JBR was killed by an intruder and he left his DNA. There is nothing else to discuss.

Well, when you put it like that, I guess there isn't! If you can't see the problems with that theory and with the DNA itself, then nothing I say is going to change it! I should have known that when you told me that sometimes you're better off not having certain information. At least you were being honest with yourself.

I can talk to you about Jury Pools and politics. I am certain we will agree in many different areas.

Maybe so.

None of that has to do with JBR in my mind. No reason for us to argue on it.

Well, that's where we differ, pilgrim. Because to me, it has EVERYTHING to do with JBR. And you're right: there is no need for us to argue on it, because from where I sit, it's pretty g*d-damned obvious! Face-slapping obvious.

Back to Anthony case, I feel somewhat guilty because I have avoided serving. I even hesitate criticizing those 12 jurors. I mean my theory is that the CSI /Law Order has hurt us too. Why can't we use dang good ole common sense.

That's what I keep saying HERE!

(don't get started on JBR--we disagree).

Oh, I haven't started yet, pilgrim. But you can be sure I WILL!

I believe most people are stupid but how do you get 12 people to agree in 10 hours that Casey Anthony is Not Guilty with Duct Tape holding the mandible in place.

I ask myself questions like that all the time!
 
It can for me, because in my opinion, they're not that much different. I was looking forward to Casey being convicted, if for no other reason than being able to come back here and point out how IDI is wrong: a mother CAN do these things to their child and a circumstantial case CAN work. But I'll take the consolation prize of knowing that I was right about how the idea of beyond a reasonable doubt has been distorted beyond recognition and something better be done about it.



How did you know?!



Well, when you put it like that, I guess there isn't! If you can't see the problems with that theory and with the DNA itself, then nothing I say is going to change it! I should have known that when you told me that sometimes you're better off not having certain information. At least you were being honest with yourself.



Maybe so.



Well, that's where we differ, pilgrim. Because to me, it has EVERYTHING to do with JBR. And you're right: there is no need for us to argue on it, because from where I sit, it's pretty g*d-damned obvious! Face-slapping obvious.



That's what I keep saying HERE!



Oh, I haven't started yet, pilgrim. But you can be sure I WILL!



I ask myself questions like that all the time!


Dave,

I get you on the circumstancial case. I just don't think you can make it. And I see no problem with the DNA anymore. As a matter of fact I have been hinting around that I have a good source that says that got even more of it than we in the public know.

For every fact we have, there is a counterpoint to it. The Anthony case was circumstancial because she needed it to sit out there and decompose. In this case we got a body, DNA, and a bunch of opinions that contradict one another. A pretty good investigative team versus a Barney Fife crew as well. I know your feelings on Alex Hunter. Heck Nancy Grace had the same reputation with plea deals.

I just don't feel like fighting anymore. I will keep reading and maybe one day you may say something I think important that I haven't considered. But for now, DNA is king.
 
Dave,

I get you on the circumstancial case. I just don't think you can make it.

My point is not whether it can be made NOW. My point is that it could have been made THEN, if anyone had been ABLE or CARED. And in the wake of the Anthony decision, I'm not so sure.

And I see no problem with the DNA anymore.

Well, then you're one person!

As a matter of fact I have been hinting around that I have a good source that says that got even more of it than we in the public know.

Yeah, I know you've been hinting at it. Not that I believe it.

For every fact we have, there is a counterpoint to it. The Anthony case was circumstancial because she needed it to sit out there and decompose. In this case we got a body, DNA, and a bunch of opinions that contradict one another. A pretty good investigative team versus a Barney Fife crew as well.

True. But we also had a powerful, politically-connected law firm working for a rich, connected suspect.

I know your feelings on Alex Hunter. Heck Nancy Grace had the same reputation with plea deals.

I find that difficult to believe!

I just don't feel like fighting anymore. I will keep reading and maybe one day you may say something I think important that I haven't considered.

That's the whole PROBLEM, pilgrim: I KEEP saying important things that you won't consider!

But for now, DNA is king.

And that's PRECISELY the kind of thinking that lead to Casey walking free!
 
Remember: You ASKED for it.

In a nutshell, Rodrigo Borgia and his children, Cesare and Lucrezia (a son and daughter, respectively), were a powerful family in Renaissance Italy who used intrigue, bribery, treachery and murder to achieve power and even worse means to keep it. Their methods and lack of morals were so well-known that the political philosopher Niccolo Machiavelli--who met them--was inspired by them to write his famous book on politics in which he argued that in order to maintain power and prevent chaos, a ruler could not let little things like morals interfere. Since then, the name Borgia has come to be synonymous with political treachery and debauchery.

More specifically, Rodrigo Borgia bribed, blackmailed and murdered his way to becoming Pope Alexander VI, then set out to conquer Italy and unify it through armies led by his brutal, treacherous, lecherous son, Cesare. (Now that I think of it, it would be much better to liken Mary Lacy to Cesare, not Lucrezia.)

Leo Strauss wrote about Machiavellianism in 1958, saying:

Machiavelli is the only political thinker whose name has come into common use for designating a kind of politics, which exists and will continue to exist independently of his influence, a politics guided exclusively by considerations of expediency, which uses all means, fair or foul, iron or poison, for achieving its ends - its end being the aggrandizement of one's country or fatherland - but also using the fatherland in the service of the self-aggrandizement of the politician or statesman or one's party.

Could not have said it better myself.

Right. That should end the history lesson. Do you see the connection now? Because if you don't, I'll be more than happy to give you some real-world examples!



It's more than that, Roy. Steve Thomas talks extensively about the process in which the GJ was selected and how the DA handled it:

My heart sank as Beckner outlined the DA's game plan:

--The grand jury might have the sole mission of helping us secure records, testimony and evidence;
--It might not hear the entire case at all;
--It would not be used to obtain an indictment;
--And if a runaway grand jury somehow returned an indictment on its own, the DA would not be obligated to prosecute.

They seemed willing to go to any lengths, even to distort the grand jury processes, to avoid a courtroom fight with the Ramseys.


I mentioned how Hunter had done this before, and it might help to know what I mean:

I received a copy of a letter containing information on the cold case of one Thayne Smika, who had been arrested in the slaying of Sid Wells. The accused murderer is today, in cop talk, in the wind, because Alex Hunter secretly promised the defense attorney that the 1983 Grand Jury hearing the case would not indict Smika. The victim's family, the cops, and the grand jurors were not told of the deal. In the letter, an attorney named Dan Hale wrote that based on what he had seen, he reached the preliminary conclusion that the agreement "may be in contempt of court."

Just to reinforce my whole "incestuous politics" angle, it should be noted that when Dan Hale became a judge, he forgot all about his problems with Alex Hunter.



Well, you MIGHT think that, but you'd be wrong. The Governor could only intervene if there was clear evidence of impropriety. And the problem with Grand Jury Secrecy is that it prevents exactly that kind of knowledge from coming out. More than that, ver few people want to barge in on an "Active" case, even if they think that calling it "Active" is just a way to avoid intervention in the first place.

Prosecutorial discretion is just about absolute, Roy. Prosecutors are rarely beholden to ANYONE.



GOOD



I've been TELLING you why! But, on the off-chance that I've been too cryptic, let's get literal here.

Number one, this case is like nuclear radiation. Nobody wants to go near it, because it contaminates everything and everybody. This case represents the very danger that I've been talking about for the last week now: the danger of having their little ship of state fall apart like a house of cards. They want it to JUST GO AWAY.

Number two, and even more importantly, WHO would they charge, and WITH what? See, that's the whole point of what I'm trying to tell you about the cross finger-pointing problem. You said you weren't going to buy that explanation, but you STILL haven't told me why. So before you do, maybe it would help if I told you about a few prosecutors--GOOD ones--who agree with me:

Bill Ritter, from PMPT:

That left prosecutors with the troubling question of which parent had knowingly caused the child's death. Until investigators could identify each parent's individual actions, two suspects meant no suspects.

And Vincent Bugliosi:

the inevitable question presents itself: which parent did it? A prosecutor can't argue to a jury, "Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence is very clear the either Mr. or Mrs. Ramsey committed this murder and the other one covered it up." Even if you could prove that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note, that doesn't mean she committed the murder."

And if THAT's not enough, Wendy Murphy writes extensively about this case in her book, And Justice for Some, in which she outlines how the Ramsey case is the best-known example of cross finger-pointing in modern history.

But, you'd know that if you'd bother to read the thread I created on this very subject. Despite what you might think, pilgrim, I'm trying to HELP you.

I had to have a cigarette after this post, excellent! Thank you for remembering more than I've forgotten, and for still caring so much about JonBenet. Makes me ashamed.
 
Can you prove to me why this is such a big deal? I mean I will listen if you want. Now I believe a GJ didn't indict because they didn't have enough. And I am not gonna buy the theory you explained about them not knowing which one did it. I think they really believed and intruder was a strong possibility due to Smit's and other testimony. Even Henry Lee himself has a few quotes out on the GJ.

Have I missed something in the past five years? Were the grand jury records unsealed? Did we find out the grand jury did not indict?
 
But for now, DNA is king.

You would have thought all Mary Lacy had to do in the JMK case was obtain DNA from him - no match, clear him? I mean, the Ramsey's were cleared because of this "new" DNA discovery in 2008, right?

But then Mary Lacy turns around, and without stopping for air says, "Solving this crime remains our goal, and its ultimate resolution will depend on more than just matching DNA. However, given the history of the publicity surrounding this case, I believe it is important and appropriate to provide you with our opinion that your family was not responsible for this crime."

Jeeze, it's hard to remember specifics, but it seems to me Lin Wood had something to do with Lacy clearing the Ramseys...anyone?
 
Have I missed something in the past five years? Were the grand jury records unsealed? Did we find out the grand jury did not indict?

The grand jury records have not been unsealed, but that doesn't mean we have not been given the results. They had several options: Indict, REFUSE to indict, do nothing with explanation, do nothing with NO explanation. They chose to do nothing with NO explanation. That is NOT the same as refusing to indict, however.

Some speculate that they chose to do nothing with no explanation is because BR may have been involved in some way and they had no choice but to say nothing. It may have been seen that for that reason (BR) this was not a prosecutable case. I disagree on that, because even if the killing/murder (may nit be the same thing) was not able to be prosecuted, certainly the staging could have been. Tampering with a body, and evidence IS a crime, regardless of whether it was done to protect a child. Not saying this is my ONLY theory, but it is one of them.
 
The grand jury records have not been unsealed, but that doesn't mean we have not been given the results. They had several options: Indict, REFUSE to indict, do nothing with explanation, do nothing with NO explanation. They chose to do nothing with NO explanation. That is NOT the same as refusing to indict, however.

Some speculate that they chose to do nothing with no explanation is because BR may have been involved in some way and they had no choice but to say nothing. It may have been seen that for that reason (BR) this was not a prosecutable case. I disagree on that, because even if the killing/murder (may nit be the same thing) was not able to be prosecuted, certainly the staging could have been. Tampering with a body, and evidence IS a crime, regardless of whether it was done to protect a child. Not saying this is my ONLY theory, but it is one of them.

"On October 13, 1999, Alex Hunter called a press conference to announce that a grand jury that had been assembled 13 months previously to hear the evidence of the case had found that there was insufficient evidence to charge any suspect with the murder of JonBenet."

I wish I could find the Jury instructions again :(
 
I had to have a cigarette after this post, excellent! Thank you for remembering more than I've forgotten, and for still caring so much about JonBenet. Makes me ashamed.

That was worded badly - I was half asleep - just leave it at thank you for keeping up with the facts of the case so well.
 
That was worded badly - I was half asleep - just leave it at thank you for keeping up with the facts of the case so well.


V,

I for one found it funny and apropos. Please dont apologize for for being real.
 
Lin Wood was on Piers Morgan Tonight to talk about the Casey Anthony verdict, and this is what Piers had to say about John and Patsy:

I mean, Lin, John and Patsy Ramsey, who were two clients of yours, they were hated by their communities. And yet they ended up not being charged with any offenses and so were innocent people. How were their lives able to rebuild after all that?

If we thought that Aphrodite Jones's show was full of BS, it's going to be so much worse when the 15th anniversary and John's new book comes out. The Ramseys being "cleared" was the greatest thing that could happen to their public image, with the exception of a conviction of the "intruder".
 
I had to have a cigarette after this post, excellent! Thank you for remembering more than I've forgotten, and for still caring so much about JonBenet. Makes me ashamed.

vlpate, I think you for the kind words. But I don't need thanks. The fact that I was able to help someone, regardless of who it might be, is all the thanks I need.
 
Have I missed something in the past five years? Were the grand jury records unsealed? Did we find out the grand jury did not indict?

Yeah, I'm always a bit perplexed as to how Roy talks like he knows something the rest of us don't when, by his own admission, he prefers to remain ignorant on many points.
 
You would have thought all Mary Lacy had to do in the JMK case was obtain DNA from him - no match, clear him? I mean, the Ramsey's were cleared because of this "new" DNA discovery in 2008, right?

But then Mary Lacy turns around, and without stopping for air says, "Solving this crime remains our goal, and its ultimate resolution will depend on more than just matching DNA. However, given the history of the publicity surrounding this case, I believe it is important and appropriate to provide you with our opinion that your family was not responsible for this crime."

Unfortunately, too many IDIs are of the mind that what happened yesterday doesn't count.

Talking about Mary Lacy's conduct in that instance would take more time than we have!

Jeeze, it's hard to remember specifics, but it seems to me Lin Wood had something to do with Lacy clearing the Ramseys...anyone?

In a way, I suppose. It was his threat of a lawsuit against the Boulder police department that gave her the opportunity to take the case from the cops. His ultimatum was very clear: give it to Lacy or prepare yourself for a lawsuit. Since they knew that Lacy had been a proponent of Ramsey innocence from the word "go," there's a level of stink to that arrangement.
 
"On October 13, 1999, Alex Hunter called a press conference to announce that a grand jury that had been assembled 13 months previously to hear the evidence of the case had found that there was insufficient evidence to charge any suspect with the murder of JonBenet."

I wish I could find the Jury instructions again :(

Actually, one of the few points that people on all sides agree on (from Dan Caplis to Bryan Morgan) is that Hunter disbanded the Grand Jury before they had a CHANCE to issue a ruling.
 
If we thought that Aphrodite Jones's show was full of BS, it's going to be so much worse when the 15th anniversary and John's new book comes out. The Ramseys being "cleared" was the greatest thing that could happen to their public image, with the exception of a conviction of the "intruder".

(SD smiles with wicked glee.) Maybe not...
 

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