South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

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Estelle said:
Is anyone interested in statement analysis?

http://www.statementanalysis.com/analyzer/

http://www.precisionintelligencecons...statement.html
Click to expand...

Interesting subject Estelle. I'm going to have a stab at it. The beginning of HvB's statement, setting the scene and the attacks on his family.


'We drank red wine but I cannot tell what kind of wine it was because my father was opening the red wine.'
This stood out as meaningless fluff considering what's to come unless Malan specifically asked him the brand of wine? HvB said it was red, isn't that enough?

I then stand there afraid to go out of the toilet. I then started to shout for help.
The analysis of Jeffrey MacDonald' statement where he said 'i started struggling to get up' reveals that he did not get up. I think we're pretty safe to say HvB did not shout out for help.

I was still standing in the bedroom with the lights on looking at what is happening in front of me
HvB doesn't mention when he came out of the bathroom, 'still standing' sounds like it was most of the time of the attacks. I assume he came out to shout for help but surely it would take Martin several minutes to enter the room but the attacker waited with HvB just standing there?!!

After the person was assaulting my father I heard my mother Teresa voice and I can hear that she was in the passage and this person went out of the room into the passage where my mother was standing.
This sounds more like HvB was alerted by the sound of his mother's voice and he ran out to attack her, he uses soft language with attacker's movements. He's not suppose to be able to see her but he describes it like he can.

I then went out of the toilet and still in the bedroom walked towards the front door but not went out of the bedroom. I could not see the passage where Teresa was from here.
So while his mother was being attacked he returned to the toilet or he's still in the bedroom, he can't decide which. He's letting us know he did go out of the bedroom. Teresa's attack is sensitive to him, imo, his intense anger was towards Martin and Rudi. Teresa and Marli are collateral damage.

While I was in the room I noticed that the same person came inside my room again and then he looks at me and then he started to attack me with the axe he was holding in his right hand.
How did HvB know it was the same person if he wore a balaclava/mask? Describing the attacker looking at him is just strange, it's like suddenly HvB is visible. He used started again because it never happened. I would hope saying 'right hand' was prompted by Malan because if it wasn't, that's a huge red flag.

We then started to fight with each other in the room and then I manage to take the axe from him.
Yep, using started again, never happened, he's making it up.

--------

I'll stop there before I bore everyone to tears and also because it becomes too fantastical with the fight and the stairs and the stabbing, it's total lies. 2 points I'd like bring to attention -
1) HvB doesn't mention hearing Rudi making gurgling sounds as in his second statement. (He could have remembered later.)

2) HvB says- I do not know whose axe it was because I did not know we had an axe in the house.
He denies knowing the family had an axe but also, that it was kept in the house? If he didn't know they owned an axe, why assume it was in the house?!
 
Tortoise said:
But do you know if he can rely on his plea statement if he doesn't take the stand?
Click to expand...

His plea explanation is the basis of his defence whether he testifies or not.

If he chooses to testify and gives a different version to either the account he provided during his bail hearing or during his plea explanation, Galloway will challenge each difference in cross-examination following his evidence in chief. Discrepancies may show that he’s lying.

While he’s not obliged to testify, he faces the very real risk that the court may come to the conclusion that the prima facie state evidence may be accepted as proof beyond reasonable doubt.
 
I tweeted Tracey Stewart to ask what happens if trail isn't finished by 19th June, and she's just replied

"Another matter is set down for that day, our court rolls are full. It will become part heard and await its turn for another court date"

"The next court date will be determined by court, Judge's and counsel's availability, not easy to co-ordinate"

"This is why evidence is recorded and transcribed - if judge passes away before finalised we start again"
 
LouP1209 said:
I tweeted Tracey Stewart to ask what happens if trail isn't finished by 19th June, and she's just replied

"Another matter is set down for that day, our court rolls are full. It will become part heard and await its turn for another court date"

"The next court date will be determined by court, Judge's and counsel's availability, not easy to co-ordinate"

"This is why evidence is recorded and transcribed - if judge passes away before finalised we start again"
Click to expand...

Thanks so much LouP! :) Oh dear, could take months. :(
 
Very sorry I should have credited Tortoise in my post because via PM she told me what to ask!!
 
PrimeSuspect said:
Interesting subject Estelle. I'm going to have a stab at it. The beginning of HvB's statement, setting the scene and the attacks on his family.


'We drank red wine but I cannot tell what kind of wine it was because my father was opening the red wine.'
This stood out as meaningless fluff considering what's to come unless Malan specifically asked him the brand of wine? HvB said it was red, isn't that enough?

I then stand there afraid to go out of the toilet. I then started to shout for help.
The analysis of Jeffrey MacDonald' statement where he said 'i started struggling to get up' reveals that he did not get up. I think we're pretty safe to say HvB did not shout out for help.

I was still standing in the bedroom with the lights on looking at what is happening in front of me
HvB doesn't mention when he came out of the bathroom, 'still standing' sounds like it was most of the time of the attacks. I assume he came out to shout for help but surely it would take Martin several minutes to enter the room but the attacker waited with HvB just standing there?!!

After the person was assaulting my father I heard my mother Teresa voice and I can hear that she was in the passage and this person went out of the room into the passage where my mother was standing.
This sounds more like HvB was alerted by the sound of his mother's voice and he ran out to attack her, he uses soft language with attacker's movements. He's not suppose to be able to see her but he describes it like he can.

I then went out of the toilet and still in the bedroom walked towards the front door but not went out of the bedroom. I could not see the passage where Teresa was from here.
So while his mother was being attacked he returned to the toilet or he's still in the bedroom, he can't decide which. He's letting us know he did go out of the bedroom. Teresa's attack is sensitive to him, imo, his intense anger was towards Martin and Rudi. Teresa and Marli are collateral damage.

While I was in the room I noticed that the same person came inside my room again and then he looks at me and then he started to attack me with the axe he was holding in his right hand.
How did HvB know it was the same person if he wore a balaclava/mask? Describing the attacker looking at him is just strange, it's like suddenly HvB is visible. He used started again because it never happened. I would hope saying 'right hand' was prompted by Malan because if it wasn't, that's a huge red flag.

We then started to fight with each other in the room and then I manage to take the axe from him.
Yep, using started again, never happened, he's making it up.

--------

I'll stop there before I bore everyone to tears and also because it becomes too fantastical with the fight and the stairs and the stabbing, it's total lies. 2 points I'd like bring to attention -
1) HvB doesn't mention hearing Rudi making gurgling sounds as in his second statement. (He could have remembered later.)

2) HvB says- I do not know whose axe it was because I did not know we had an axe in the house.
He denies knowing the family had an axe but also, that it was kept in the house? If he didn't know they owned an axe, why assume it was in the house?!
Click to expand...

Excellent statement analysis, Prime!
 
JudgeJudi said:
His plea explanation is the basis of his defence whether he testifies or not.

If he chooses to testify and gives a different version to either the account he provided during his bail hearing or during his plea explanation, Galloway will challenge each difference in cross-examination following his evidence in chief. Discrepancies may show that he’s lying.

While he’s not obliged to testify, he faces the very real risk that the court may come to the conclusion that the prima facie state evidence may be accepted as proof beyond reasonable doubt.
Click to expand...

If he does not testify I am guessing Botha will say it is because HvB stutters.
 
PrimeSuspect said:
Interesting subject Estelle. I'm going to have a stab at it. The beginning of HvB's statement, setting the scene and the attacks on his family.


'We drank red wine but I cannot tell what kind of wine it was because my father was opening the red wine.'
This stood out as meaningless fluff considering what's to come unless Malan specifically asked him the brand of wine? HvB said it was red, isn't that enough?

I then stand there afraid to go out of the toilet. I then started to shout for help.
The analysis of Jeffrey MacDonald' statement where he said 'i started struggling to get up' reveals that he did not get up. I think we're pretty safe to say HvB did not shout out for help.

I was still standing in the bedroom with the lights on looking at what is happening in front of me
HvB doesn't mention when he came out of the bathroom, 'still standing' sounds like it was most of the time of the attacks. I assume he came out to shout for help but surely it would take Martin several minutes to enter the room but the attacker waited with HvB just standing there?!!

After the person was assaulting my father I heard my mother Teresa voice and I can hear that she was in the passage and this person went out of the room into the passage where my mother was standing.
This sounds more like HvB was alerted by the sound of his mother's voice and he ran out to attack her, he uses soft language with attacker's movements. He's not suppose to be able to see her but he describes it like he can.

I then went out of the toilet and still in the bedroom walked towards the front door but not went out of the bedroom. I could not see the passage where Teresa was from here.
So while his mother was being attacked he returned to the toilet or he's still in the bedroom, he can't decide which. He's letting us know he did go out of the bedroom. Teresa's attack is sensitive to him, imo, his intense anger was towards Martin and Rudi. Teresa and Marli are collateral damage.

While I was in the room I noticed that the same person came inside my room again and then he looks at me and then he started to attack me with the axe he was holding in his right hand.
How did HvB know it was the same person if he wore a balaclava/mask? Describing the attacker looking at him is just strange, it's like suddenly HvB is visible. He used started again because it never happened. I would hope saying 'right hand' was prompted by Malan because if it wasn't, that's a huge red flag.

We then started to fight with each other in the room and then I manage to take the axe from him.
Yep, using started again, never happened, he's making it up.

--------

I'll stop there before I bore everyone to tears and also because it becomes too fantastical with the fight and the stairs and the stabbing, it's total lies. 2 points I'd like bring to attention -
1) HvB doesn't mention hearing Rudi making gurgling sounds as in his second statement. (He could have remembered later.)

2) HvB says- I do not know whose axe it was because I did not know we had an axe in the house.
He denies knowing the family had an axe but also, that it was kept in the house? If he didn't know they owned an axe, why assume it was in the house?!
Click to expand...

This is excellent, feel free to do more analyses!

Especially interesting is your highlighting of "started". One would hope this was really how HvB spoke in those first few hours, an actual sort of verbal tic, a "tell", rather than Malan's interpretation of his verbs processed through his own head and native Afrikaans and back into English, as he did with the verb "to be". If HvB did say started, started, started, then it definitely sounds like a kid recounting a fantasy computer game.

I wouldn't read too much into the axe being in the house, because even if it were outside by the braai area, for example, that could broadly be considered in the house unless a question is specifically being asked about where on the property.

But what is particularly interesting is the timing of him bringing up the actual topic of the family owning an axe. Nobody on the scene could have known whether or not the murder weapon was the family's axe. I don't think anybody except HvB knows even now, but we have Precious's evidence that the axe was in the house and James' evidence that there was one that may have have been a different colour. So it most likely was that one, since this murder was premeditated but not for enough in advance to purchase a new axe.

So to blurt out a rehearsed response prematurely, far too prematurely, tells me that it was a statement he'd planned for later if investigators found evidence that it was the family's axe. But the psychological stress at that time made him misjudge his timing.
 
I've typed up his statement in full so that people can copy and paste paragraphs if anyone wants to continue with further analysis, or comparison with the plea statement. His plea statement was typed up by JudgeJudi -
here http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...urdered-26-Jan-2015-2&p=13389702#post13389702
here http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...urdered-26-Jan-2015-2&p=13389708#post13389708
here http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...urdered-26-Jan-2015-2&p=13389711#post13389711

-1-

I am an adult male, 20 years old, d.o.b. 1994/11/01, residing at no.12, Geske Street, De Zalze golf estate, R44/Strand road Stellenbosch with cell no. 0728352802, and currently a student at Melbourne University, Australia.

2

On Monday 2015-01-26 at about 18:30 myself and my father had some drinks in the living room of our abovementioned house. My fathers name is MARTIN. We drank red wine but I cannot tell what kind of wine it was because my father was opening the red wine. I drank two glasses of red wine and one whiskey. My father drank two glasses of red wine and that was all. My brother by the name of RUDI was outside went for a run and my suster and my mother was also in the house.

3

On Monday 2015-01-26 at about 19:15 all of us was sitting in the dining room and ate our dinner and we finish diner at about 20:00. Myself, my brother, my father and my sister then went to watch television and I was not saw where my mother was at that time. While I was watching television I drank one coke and rum alone. MARLI then went to bed at about 21:00. My father then went to bed at about 21:00 and myself and RUDI went to bed 23:00.

4

Myself and my brother RUDI was sleeping in one room on the first floor. My sister MARLI were sleeping also in her room alone and also on the first floor. My parents TERESA AND MARTIN was also sleeping in there room on the first floor. My brother was then asleep and I was still on my laptop in my room watching television series called ONE PIECE and it was on the internet till 03:00 and then I started to listen to music on my cellphone to get asleep. I then took out my earphones and put my phone on my bedside table, then decided to go to the toilet and took my phone with me in my pocket. I then went to the toilet and close the toilet door after me while I was still inside the toilet.

5

While I was inside the toilet I heard a noise from outside and can also hear that the noise was coming from my room where my brother was also sleeping because the noise was close. I opened the toilet door slightly and saw in the dark that someone was hitting RUDI. I then stand there afraid to go out of the toilet. I then started to shout for help. My father then arrived at the room and turned on the lights and I then saw that this person had an axe in his hand and that was the item that he was hitting RUDI with on the bed. My father MARTIN then saw the whole thing happening and my father then jumped on the person and then the person started to assault the father with the axe. RUDI was just lying on the bed while this person was hitting my father with the axe. I was still standing in the bedroom with the lights on looking of what is happening in front of me. My father then collapse in my room where this person was attacking him.

6

After the person was assaulting my father I heard my mother TERESA voice and I can hear that she was in the passage and this person went out of the room to the passage where my mother was standing. I then can hear that this person was busy assaulting my mother in the passage. I then went out of the toilet and still in the bedroom walked towards the front door but not went out of the bedroom. I could not see the passage where TERESA was from here.

7

While I was in the room I noticed that the same person came inside my room again and then he looks at me and then he laugh at me and then he started to attack me with the axe he was holding in his right hand. We then started to fight with each other in the room and then I manage to take the axe from him. I then step a little back and then I saw then the person pull out a knife and then attacked me again and then grab his right arm with my left hand and then pull him to the side of my body and then I fell that he stabbed me in the left side of my body at my ribs and then I hit the person with the blunt side of the axe at the back of his body at his right shoulder and then he left me and then I took the knife out of my body that was still stuck inside my body where this person was stabbing me and then this person started to run.

8

I then went to the room door while this person was running down the stairs and then I throw the axe at him but I missed him. I do not know whose axe it was because I did not know that we had an axe in the house. After I throw the axe at this person I then started to ran after him and while I was busy running down the stairs I tripped and fell and when I stand up I noticed the person was gone. I then assume that this person was out the back door because we always left the back door opened every night for the domestic worker to come inside the house. I then went to the back door and discovered that the back door was standing open and then went outside but saw no-one. I then went back inside the house because I was afraid to follow him because I did not know what he had on him.

9

When I came back in the house I noticed that my fathers studyroom lights was on and the bedroom of my parents was also on. I then try to call my girlfriend BIANCA but the fone just went on voicemail and then I started to google for an emergency number and I walked up the stairs and as I was still on the internet looking for a number I saw my mother and my sister lying in the passageway and at that time I was still on the stairs and then fainted on the stairs.

10

I then woke up and then still saw my sister and my mother in the passage way lying on the ground and I can see that my mother was not moving and my sister was still moving and she also was breathing. I then got hold of the emergency number and then called the ambulance but I waited for 20 minutes on the phone in the kitchen. I then called BIANCA again at about 07:30 and then later again but it went again on voicemail and I then whatssup her and then I got through to the emergency people and then they told me that they are going to call the police. I then opened front door went outside for a bid and then I went inside again and sit in the kitchen having some sigarettes while I waited for the emergency people and then they arrived and then I told them what happened and then treated my family in the house. I did not touch anybody of my family in the house the time the person assaulted my family with the axe.

11

This person who attacked my family was a well bould person and he was strong, 1.86 meters tall and he had a dark jeans, black jumbo jersey, black cloves, homemade dark grey mask on. I only saw his eyes the time he was in the house. It will be difficult for me to identify the person if I see the persons whole face but will recognise his eyes and voice.

12

I sustained some bruises on my body and also a stab wound at the left side of my body at my ribs. I had no major arguments with my parents. I had no arguments with my brother or my sister before.

13

This is all that I can state.
 
10

I then woke up and then still saw my sister and my mother in the passage way lying on the ground and I can see that my mother was not moving and my sister was still moving and she also was breathing.
Click to expand...

Followed by a lengthy phone call, calls to Bianca, cigarettes, and:

I did not touch anybody of my family in the house the time the person assaulted my family with the axe.
Click to expand...

This chills me to my bones.

Family dead and dying, blood everywhere, and not even taking his family's pulses or trying to comfort his still living sister. This guy has no emotions at all, a classic sign of extreme antisocial personality disorder. But unlike most psychopaths, especially those with a decent upbringing, he hasn't even learned how to fake them.
 
I've got loads to say about the statements but here's one for starters -

1st statement: I was still standing in the bedroom with the lights on looking of what is happening in front of me. My father then collapse in my room where this person was attacking him.

Plea statement: I did not switch on the light in the bathroom.

In the whole of the first statement he doesn't once use the word bathroom. He refers to it many times and every time he calls it the toilet. So it can't be a case of Malan mishearing him saying 'I was still standing in the bathroom with the lights on'.

Secondly, he confirms in the plea statement that he didn't put the bathroom light on, so again, he can't have been referring to the bathroom/toilet when he made his first statement.

So in his own words, he was in the bedroom when Martin was being attacked, and not only that but he was "still standing in the bedroom" which puts him there even earlier.

It's hard to see how this could have been a misunderstanding by Malan.

Did Henri get confused and hadn't yet worked out when he was going to place himself in the room ready for the bit when the man came back?
 
I am going off at a tangent here but:-

I have a suspicion that HvB is mentally ill (possibly due to his heavy drug taking). He may not have had drugs in his blood at the time of the murder but is brain damaged from his past habit. He possibly had a psychotic event after/during an argument with his family and lost all control. Nobody in their right mind would kill in the way he did without being very disturbed.

I wonder if when HvB is found guilty B. will bring his mental health into the equation and possibly have him assessed. Would it be possible to implement this before his imprisonment term is determined? Or would it be too late?

Below is a link to an interesting article on mental health and the judiciary in South Africa


“Legal aspects with regard to mentally ill offenders in South Africa”

http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1727-37812015000100010
 
Tortoise said:
I've got loads to say about the statements but here's one for starters -

1st statement: I was still standing in the bedroom with the lights on looking of what is happening in front of me. My father then collapse in my room where this person was attacking him.

Plea statement: I did not switch on the light in the bathroom.

In the whole of the first statement he doesn't once use the word bathroom. He refers to it many times and every time he calls it the toilet. So it can't be a case of Malan mishearing him saying 'I was still standing in the bathroom with the lights on'.

Secondly, he confirms in the plea statement that he didn't put the bathroom light on, so again, he can't have been referring to the bathroom/toilet when he made his first statement.

So in his own words, he was in the bedroom when Martin was being attacked, and not only that but he was "still standing in the bedroom" which puts him there even earlier.

It's hard to see how this could have been a misunderstanding by Malan.

Did Henri get confused and hadn't yet worked out when he was going to place himself in the room ready for the bit when the man came back?
Click to expand...

So much is wrong with the statements and B. really needed to get his witness statement disallowed. Thankfully Desai did not allow this.
 
Their watching Star Trek 2 was not mentioned in first statement. That could have been added after they became aware of the neighbour hearing an argument.

I am shocked that Henri is allowed to use the money from the Queensland house to fund his defence. Would Marli have had to give her permission to for him to be able do it?

I wonder if Marli will testify.
 
Methamphetamine, Psychosis and the Insanity Defence... a study from New Zealand

http://www.otago.ac.nz/law/research/journals/otago036292.pdf

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...is+and+the+Insanity+Defence+South+African+law

Alcohol, Drugs of Abuse, Aggression, and Violence

https://www.nap.edu/read/4421/chapter/5

I am wondering whether HvB gets drunk easily. That night, he admits to drinking two red wines, a whisky and one coke and rum alone. So HvB mixed his drinks and had three different types of alcohol that he is admitting to. I predict he possibly had more especially after they went to bed. IMO his "fainting" for about 2 hours 20 minutes could have been time for him to sober up before the ambulance and police arrived. One policeman smelt alcohol on his breath and so did a doctor.

I cannot remember when his blood test was taken, I don't think they did a breath test. But there seems to be no evidence of drugs or alcohol.
 
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