PrimeSuspect
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Botha picking up errors, having a win today.
South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2
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PrimeSuspect
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B: going to show more photos where it appears as if Joubert is taking the swabs - he does H accepts
B: 115,116 and 117 you accept that Joubert collected the evidence but you wrote your name in the "evidence collector" form
H: Joubert sprayed the Luminol and the swabs are collected by him, the exhibits are on the scene I was there and took the photos
B:do u agree that the info on this form must be correct? Yes. U fill it in 30 Jan 11:58 I collected this
B: why wouldn't you fill in that it was Joubert, fill it in while he is taking the swab?
H: I took the photo, Joubert had sprayed the Luminol he could see where the evidence of presumable blood was
H I was there with him and saw him taking the swab
B: but the document is different from what you have testified am I correct? H yes
We have adjourned for tea, back at 11h30
(I have to agree with Botha, why H?)
B: going to show more photos where it appears as if Joubert is taking the swabs - he does H accepts
B: 115,116 and 117 you accept that Joubert collected the evidence but you wrote your name in the "evidence collector" form
H: Joubert sprayed the Luminol and the swabs are collected by him, the exhibits are on the scene I was there and took the photos
B:do u agree that the info on this form must be correct? Yes. U fill it in 30 Jan 11:58 I collected this
B: why wouldn't you fill in that it was Joubert, fill it in while he is taking the swab?
H: I took the photo, Joubert had sprayed the Luminol he could see where the evidence of presumable blood was
H I was there with him and saw him taking the swab
B: but the document is different from what you have testified am I correct? H yes
We have adjourned for tea, back at 11h30
(I have to agree with Botha, why H?)
JudgeJudi
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Photo 115 - shows Captain Joubert taking swabs.
Botha says he gave Hitchcock the opportunity to say if he was unsure of if he couldn't remember.
Desai says he wrote this in his report.
Hitchcock says his letter says he collected it, but in the photo... it can be seen that it was Captain Joubert.
No one is perfect. He made a mistake, he concedes.
115, 116 117 taken by Joubert, Botha says.
Who did you say on the kit was the evidence collector?
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-24-20170607
Botha says he gave Hitchcock the opportunity to say if he was unsure of if he couldn't remember.
Desai says he wrote this in his report.
Hitchcock says his letter says he collected it, but in the photo... it can be seen that it was Captain Joubert.
No one is perfect. He made a mistake, he concedes.
115, 116 117 taken by Joubert, Botha says.
Who did you say on the kit was the evidence collector?
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-24-20170607
JudgeJudi
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Hitchcock says his name is there.
Hitchcock says Joubert sprayed the chemical to show the blood evidence.
Captain Joubert could see where it was with the chemical. You can't see where the blood evidence is with the naked eye. He saw it there.
Court adjournes for a break.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-24-20170607
Hitchcock says Joubert sprayed the chemical to show the blood evidence.
Captain Joubert could see where it was with the chemical. You can't see where the blood evidence is with the naked eye. He saw it there.
Court adjournes for a break.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-24-20170607
PrimeSuspect
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True, but irritating all the same. Why didn't Joubert sign when he took the swab? Botha will make out they're liars.
Botha leads this into quite childish territory when you think about it, if Hitchcock signed for a swab Joubert took, even though H had taken the picture, therefore, other shenanigans happened and it's a bungled case etc etc.
Tortoise
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Oh here we go. Speechless.
Tortoise
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I'm presuming it isn't HvB's blood in the bathroom, if he showered it was to remove the others' blood.
Fluffykins
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Yes, exactly. I gather he's trying to discredit the witness with itty bitty point scoring but for what my opinion is worth I don't think he should be allowed to do it because it's just holding things up and it doesn't change the actual evidence.
Tortoise
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Smoke and mirrors.
This morning I had a vision of Barry Roux strolling in to take Botha's place if he hadn't been able to return to court today. Cut from the same cloth.
PrimeSuspect
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Adv B: so you looked at the photos on the PC and you can confirm they were taken in that chronological order? H- yes
B: do u have knowledge of Luminol? H: Its mostly used by the lab.
B so u know that it can go blue with something thats not blood?
H: is not aware of the reactions that make it go blue B; moves on
B: later we find out that it tested negative for blood this is in the statement by Denel from Plattekloof lab
H can't comment. [ So it appears as if the "wiped away blood" wasn't blood at all]
B As evidence is collected you take a photo - why didnt you follow that procedure in this particular evidence
113 -117 - never took a photo of the evidence collection kit? H has no explanation for that
Adv B: so you looked at the photos on the PC and you can confirm they were taken in that chronological order? H- yes
B: do u have knowledge of Luminol? H: Its mostly used by the lab.
B so u know that it can go blue with something thats not blood?
H: is not aware of the reactions that make it go blue B; moves on
B: later we find out that it tested negative for blood this is in the statement by Denel from Plattekloof lab
H can't comment. [ So it appears as if the "wiped away blood" wasn't blood at all]
B As evidence is collected you take a photo - why didnt you follow that procedure in this particular evidence
113 -117 - never took a photo of the evidence collection kit? H has no explanation for that
PrimeSuspect
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B: again normally you take photos of the evidence seal bag? You didnt do it in this case
Judge Desai - a great deal of photos were taken the mere fact that 1 wasn't taken is not a point. This is not a jury trial
Judge Desai- we are both experienced please remember you aren't cross examining for a jury
(J Desai 1 - Botha 0)
B: again normally you take photos of the evidence seal bag? You didnt do it in this case
Judge Desai - a great deal of photos were taken the mere fact that 1 wasn't taken is not a point. This is not a jury trial
Judge Desai- we are both experienced please remember you aren't cross examining for a jury
(J Desai 1 - Botha 0)
JudgeJudi
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Court resumes.
Photos are in chronological order.
Botha: You are aware that chemical can give a false positive? Hitchcock says he can't say.
Botha says it was later determined by officer Nel that the suspected blood in shower didn't test positive as blood.
Botha asks for photos of evidence kits 113 to 117
Hitchcock says it appeared it wasn't taken.
Why didn't you follow usual procedure? Hitchcock says he can't give a specific reason for this.
Botha says all the other evidence was photographed.
Where is photo of evidence seal bag after they were put into their boxes?
No photos, but it's in his report, Hitchcock says.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-24-20170607
Photos are in chronological order.
Botha: You are aware that chemical can give a false positive? Hitchcock says he can't say.
Botha says it was later determined by officer Nel that the suspected blood in shower didn't test positive as blood.
Botha asks for photos of evidence kits 113 to 117
Hitchcock says it appeared it wasn't taken.
Why didn't you follow usual procedure? Hitchcock says he can't give a specific reason for this.
Botha says all the other evidence was photographed.
Where is photo of evidence seal bag after they were put into their boxes?
No photos, but it's in his report, Hitchcock says.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-24-20170607
PrimeSuspect
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Judge Desai I am not stopping you from cross examining I am only pointing out that some points you make sound nice But to an experienced trial judge. Adv B- I know where I am going with this I consulted with my expert I am not grand standing
Judge Desai I am not stopping you from cross examining I am only pointing out that some points you make sound nice But to an experienced trial judge. Adv B- I know where I am going with this I consulted with my expert I am not grand standing
PrimeSuspect
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B: takes H to 117, we know that this exhibit was collected by Joubert and you will agree VV11 doesn't indicate the evidence no. that goes with this evidence collection kit? H- that correct
Adv B; hands up VV4 document - you see handwriting "on the floor of shower" is that yours? H - yes
B: then someone has changed 118 to 117, who changed that? H I can't remember
B: further issue- where is the middle seal on this evidence collection kit? it hasn't been sealed? H - agrees
(anyone watch Line of Duty?
)
B: takes H to 117, we know that this exhibit was collected by Joubert and you will agree VV11 doesn't indicate the evidence no. that goes with this evidence collection kit? H- that correct
Adv B; hands up VV4 document - you see handwriting "on the floor of shower" is that yours? H - yes
B: then someone has changed 118 to 117, who changed that? H I can't remember
B: further issue- where is the middle seal on this evidence collection kit? it hasn't been sealed? H - agrees
(anyone watch Line of Duty?
)
JudgeJudi
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Corner of shower floor photo discussed. Exhibit number changed.
He can't remember if he changed it.
Asked where the middle seal is.
Hitchcock says it's not there.
Why? He says he can't give a reason for this, it could be his mistake.
Botha says unsealed kits should be sent to the lab.
Hitchcock says under normal circumstances.
117 - you didnt take it. No photo was taken of the kit.
No photo taken of the seal bag. Change was made to the number of the kit. It wasn't sealed like all the rest.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-24-20170607
He can't remember if he changed it.
Asked where the middle seal is.
Hitchcock says it's not there.
Why? He says he can't give a reason for this, it could be his mistake.
Botha says unsealed kits should be sent to the lab.
Hitchcock says under normal circumstances.
117 - you didnt take it. No photo was taken of the kit.
No photo taken of the seal bag. Change was made to the number of the kit. It wasn't sealed like all the rest.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-24-20170607
PrimeSuspect
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B: why doesn't it have a seal? H I can't give a specific reasons it could be my fault?
B: You accept that unsealed evidence collection kits shouldn't be sent to forensics? H correct
B: we don't know who changed the number and we know it wasn't sealed?
H: I may have changed it I can't remember, but yes that is correct
(Do we know that? Is H agreeing to it or the changed no.? Will this evidence be struck off?)
B: why doesn't it have a seal? H I can't give a specific reasons it could be my fault?
B: You accept that unsealed evidence collection kits shouldn't be sent to forensics? H correct
B: we don't know who changed the number and we know it wasn't sealed?
H: I may have changed it I can't remember, but yes that is correct
(Do we know that? Is H agreeing to it or the changed no.? Will this evidence be struck off?)
JudgeJudi
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But he said he never touched the bodies.
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PrimeSuspect
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B refers to another exhibit H confirms he collected
B: hands up another exhibit VV5 1&2
B:VV5 pg2 - page to the form that matches this photo what is the evidence collection kit number which goes with 117 -15...9579
H: that differs, it seems that collection kit or that goes on 113 has been used on 117 form
Adv G: the version that B is referring to is not the final version - perhaps B should look at the source notes
Judge Desai just give the witness the whole version and be frank with him
Adv B: can u explain why there is a prior version of Exhibit A in a photo album which you compiled
(TG Galloway and J Desai asking Botha to get to the point, it's like pulling teeth!)
B refers to another exhibit H confirms he collected
B: hands up another exhibit VV5 1&2
B:VV5 pg2 - page to the form that matches this photo what is the evidence collection kit number which goes with 117 -15...9579
H: that differs, it seems that collection kit or that goes on 113 has been used on 117 form
Adv G: the version that B is referring to is not the final version - perhaps B should look at the source notes
Judge Desai just give the witness the whole version and be frank with him
Adv B: can u explain why there is a prior version of Exhibit A in a photo album which you compiled
(TG Galloway and J Desai asking Botha to get to the point, it's like pulling teeth!)
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