tmar
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2017
- Messages
- 5,693
- Reaction score
- 49,884
I am also hoping for the Rohde case.
South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4
- Thread starter bessie
- Start date
Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
- Status
I am also hoping for the Rohde case.
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Desai wants this trial finished by the end of the month, Thursday, but I can't see that happening at all. We've yet to hear the psychologist and Galloway will want to cross-examine her, and then there's the possibility that Dr Butler may be called. Even if the psychologist finished early tomorrow, I wouldn't put it past Botha to say that Butler isn't available until Tuesday even if he is called.
Neither of these two witnesses will probably take very long, however both sides will no doubt want a week to prepare closing arguments.
I think it's more likely that it will finish some time next week.
Neither of these two witnesses will probably take very long, however both sides will no doubt want a week to prepare closing arguments.
I think it's more likely that it will finish some time next week.
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Botha said that HvB contacted his attorney to say he had suffered a seizure and that preliminary tests had been carried out. Dr Butler, the Neurologist who performed these tests, wanted to speak to Botha as he diagnosed him with juvenile myoclonic epilepsy. Botha said that HvB has experienced petit mal seizures for some time and that Butler had apparently consulted with HvB before. If this is so, why wasnt this raised in HvBs Defence at the beginning of the trial. Well, I guess we all know the answer to that. If there was a medical issue, it most certainly would have been raised long ago in his statement of defence.
Botha wants to call Butler as an expert witness as he can give pertinent testimony relevant to HvBs 2 hour 40 minute loss of memory. I find this more than a little odd. What possible memory could you have of a period when you were unconscious.
If Desai rules against the Defence calling Butler, Botha will ask the Court to call him.
After HvB finished testifying, Botha announced he wanted to call a psychologist, Ms Bourke, no doubt to testify why he didnt go to the aid of his family. Cant you just hear her EiC now. Well, everyone reacts differently. He was terrified, too frightened to move (freeze response) and no doubt she can dream up other excuses.
However, the psychologist wants to see Butlers report first as it may impact part of her evidence. Yes, I can believe she may have said that. As a result of hearing Butlers evidence, if hes called, she may want to add or subtract elements that she proposed to advance. Before testifying, one has to get ones story straight, doesnt one?
Weve seen all this before in the OP trial, and Botha is a master of dirty tricks.
I believe Desai will see all of this for what it is and it will go against HvB. At least I certainly hope so because Ill have a monumental tantrum if the State loses this case. If it does lose, I can see all of us rushing like lemmings over the nearest cliff.
Botha wants to call Butler as an expert witness as he can give pertinent testimony relevant to HvBs 2 hour 40 minute loss of memory. I find this more than a little odd. What possible memory could you have of a period when you were unconscious.
If Desai rules against the Defence calling Butler, Botha will ask the Court to call him.
After HvB finished testifying, Botha announced he wanted to call a psychologist, Ms Bourke, no doubt to testify why he didnt go to the aid of his family. Cant you just hear her EiC now. Well, everyone reacts differently. He was terrified, too frightened to move (freeze response) and no doubt she can dream up other excuses.
However, the psychologist wants to see Butlers report first as it may impact part of her evidence. Yes, I can believe she may have said that. As a result of hearing Butlers evidence, if hes called, she may want to add or subtract elements that she proposed to advance. Before testifying, one has to get ones story straight, doesnt one?
Weve seen all this before in the OP trial, and Botha is a master of dirty tricks.
I believe Desai will see all of this for what it is and it will go against HvB. At least I certainly hope so because Ill have a monumental tantrum if the State loses this case. If it does lose, I can see all of us rushing like lemmings over the nearest cliff.
L2L
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2014
- Messages
- 519
- Reaction score
- 139
Not going to happen, JJ, but if it does, you'll have a stream of followers! I've been (secretly!) watching the live tapes while waiting for court to resume (anyone else do this?) and there's nothing surer than HvB is well on his way to prison regardless of any psychologist etc being brought in now. The more I've watched the tapes, the more dumbfounded I've been by HvB's palpable disdain for the entire court, Judge Desai (whom he answers with a rude "EH?) and his unmasked loathing and hostility towards Advocate Galloway. His demeanour giving evidence is totally baffling to me : after he replies to a question, he seems to drift off, shut down, go somewhere else... bizarre! Not much longer ......
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Attachments
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Today is Day 61 of the #VanBreda case. Neurologist Dr James Butler expected to testify today on Henri's behaviour surrounding 2 hours 40 min when Henri claimed to have "blacked out" [words to operator] "fainted" [word in police statement], "lost consciousness" [plea explanation].
The Judge has asked that the evidence phase be finalised before the end of November, that's this week Thursday. Psychologist Elspeth Burke is also expected to take the stand on to explain Henri's calm demeanour. Will there be a verdict before 2018?
Nick van der Leek retweeted
A masterstroke from Botha. By postponing the case for 2 weeks, he effectively manages to allow a blanket of amnesia to set in. It's a lot easier to forget the details of Henri's testimony, which makes the psychologist's testimony right at the end hold far more weight.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
The Judge has asked that the evidence phase be finalised before the end of November, that's this week Thursday. Psychologist Elspeth Burke is also expected to take the stand on to explain Henri's calm demeanour. Will there be a verdict before 2018?
Nick van der Leek retweeted
A masterstroke from Botha. By postponing the case for 2 weeks, he effectively manages to allow a blanket of amnesia to set in. It's a lot easier to forget the details of Henri's testimony, which makes the psychologist's testimony right at the end hold far more weight.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Of the trials I’ve watched since joining WS, this is the one I’m most passionate about, but it’s been such an ordeal following it and many times I've wanted to abandon it. OP was bad enough with an alleged intruder who robbed a clever, talented and much loved woman of her life just as an exciting future was rapidly unfolding before her.
Now we have yet another alleged intruder, but this individual robbed three people - Martin, Teresa and Rudi, and nearly Marli, of their lives. It would be a travesty of justice of unimaginable proportions if HvB gets off scot-free. I can only speak for myself, but I hope he goes to prison for the rest of his life. That probably won’t happen, but no sentence can be long enough as far as I’m concerned.
Now we have yet another alleged intruder, but this individual robbed three people - Martin, Teresa and Rudi, and nearly Marli, of their lives. It would be a travesty of justice of unimaginable proportions if HvB gets off scot-free. I can only speak for myself, but I hope he goes to prison for the rest of his life. That probably won’t happen, but no sentence can be long enough as far as I’m concerned.
I agree with all you say. We know what should happen and I think it will, although most likely the sentence will be less than appropriate in the view of many.
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
This morning Henri's defence team will call and expert, Neurologist, Dr Butler to testify on Henri's epilepsy and the possibility of this being the cause of him losing consciousness for 2hr40min
Adv Botha starts the cross examination by going through Dr Butler's report and his qualifications
Dr Butler going through his CV- consultant at University of Stellenbosch before moving into private practice but remains as a part time member of staff at Stellenbosch and consults to UCT
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Adv Botha starts the cross examination by going through Dr Butler's report and his qualifications
Dr Butler going through his CV- consultant at University of Stellenbosch before moving into private practice but remains as a part time member of staff at Stellenbosch and consults to UCT
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
L2L
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2014
- Messages
- 519
- Reaction score
- 139
The loveliest photo I've seen of Rudi to date. A young man with everything to live for.
Nick van der Leek‏ @HiRezLife
I recall reading that Rudi had seen a friend wearing these bracers and just had to go out and buy himself the same pair! Beyond sad!
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Dr Butler: I specialise and investigate people who have various forms of seizures
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
[video=youtube;HRKTkUJ_XcA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRKTkUJ_XcA[/video]
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
[video=youtube;HRKTkUJ_XcA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRKTkUJ_XcA[/video]
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Dr Butler also lectures medical students on epilepsy
Dr Butler has published several articles in the last couple of years, served on an epilepsy commission and those proceedings are in the scientific journal
Dr Butler has a research unit at Constantiaberg Hospital and that research is published
Dr B: prior to my involvement with Mr van Breda I have consulted and seen Marli van Breda
Dr B: I have also consulted with Adv Galloway prior to seeing Mr van Breda
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Dr Butler has published several articles in the last couple of years, served on an epilepsy commission and those proceedings are in the scientific journal
Dr Butler has a research unit at Constantiaberg Hospital and that research is published
Dr B: prior to my involvement with Mr van Breda I have consulted and seen Marli van Breda
Dr B: I have also consulted with Adv Galloway prior to seeing Mr van Breda
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Dr Butler: explains a sequence of events of how it came about that he is testifying today. The ward in which I work was contacted 8 November 2017 by Mr van Breda's girlfriend and his girlfriends father who is a GP
[This is getting very weird. He's performed tests on HvB, consulted with Marli, consulted with Galloway and was contacted by HvB's girlfriend and also her father!!!]
Dr B: this wasnt high priority so I didnt return the call the same day. The next morning I received a call from the father of Henri's girlfriend he phoned me and indicated that Henri had had a seizure
Dr B: he then asked me to consult with Henri and I agreed, he gave me no other detail
Dr B: I constructed the probabilities before meeting van Breda as I would with any patient whom I will consult with
Dr Butler goes through the list of most probable seizures- given media attention of this case I had to distinctly consider the possibilities of malingering
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
[This is getting very weird. He's performed tests on HvB, consulted with Marli, consulted with Galloway and was contacted by HvB's girlfriend and also her father!!!]
Dr B: this wasnt high priority so I didnt return the call the same day. The next morning I received a call from the father of Henri's girlfriend he phoned me and indicated that Henri had had a seizure
Dr B: he then asked me to consult with Henri and I agreed, he gave me no other detail
Dr B: I constructed the probabilities before meeting van Breda as I would with any patient whom I will consult with
Dr Butler goes through the list of most probable seizures- given media attention of this case I had to distinctly consider the possibilities of malingering
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Dr B: I have to disclose my biases which were strongly against Mr van Breda and it is important because the science actually contradict my biases
Dr B: when discussing biases I want to tell the court my most NB issue was process and I have been very clear to both parties that I am not on either side and have refused to accept payment for this process
Dr B: I would like to take you through the scientific evidence and allow you to make your own conclusions
Psychogenic seizures is different from malingering. Malingering is a deliberate conscious explicit intent to feign medical illness for secondary gain so it might be to stay out of jail monetary gain etc
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Dr. Butler invokes the spectre of malingering in the context of epilepsy. Malingering is at the centre of this trial, where the question is: did Henri "pretend to be ill in order to escape [duty or work or culpability]".
Dr. Butler going on about biases.
Dr. Butler adamant that he's not receiving any payment for his testimony in court. Now dealing with scientific evidence, wants court to draw its "own conclusions."
Malingering is feigning of illness for secondary gain - Dr. Butler's definition. May be to stay out of jail, may be for financial incentive.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
Dr B: when discussing biases I want to tell the court my most NB issue was process and I have been very clear to both parties that I am not on either side and have refused to accept payment for this process
Dr B: I would like to take you through the scientific evidence and allow you to make your own conclusions
Psychogenic seizures is different from malingering. Malingering is a deliberate conscious explicit intent to feign medical illness for secondary gain so it might be to stay out of jail monetary gain etc
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Dr. Butler invokes the spectre of malingering in the context of epilepsy. Malingering is at the centre of this trial, where the question is: did Henri "pretend to be ill in order to escape [duty or work or culpability]".
Dr. Butler going on about biases.
Dr. Butler adamant that he's not receiving any payment for his testimony in court. Now dealing with scientific evidence, wants court to draw its "own conclusions."
Malingering is feigning of illness for secondary gain - Dr. Butler's definition. May be to stay out of jail, may be for financial incentive.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Psychogenic seizures are normally caused when a person has experienced an emotional trauma and the brain turns these memories into a seizure like symptom
Psychogenic seizures are typically experienced by girls and there has typically been some abuse and these young vulnerable brains are unable to cope with these traumas and the brain converts to neurological trauma
Dr B: so in these seizures there is no intent to deceive. So knowing what he is going through it must be emotionally traumatic and it is not uncommon to see these seizures, after epilepsy its the next most common cause when we see seizures
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Psychogenic non-epileptic seizures: Psychogenic disease (or psychogenic illness) is a name given to physical illnesses that are believed to arise from emotional or mental stressors, or from psychological or psychiatric disorders.
Conversion disorder is a mental condition in which a person has blindness, paralysis, or other nervous system (neurologic) symptoms that cannot be explained by medical evaluation. Subconscious process.
Dr. Butler mentions neurological traumas manifesting as a kind of paralysis. Says there is no attempt at concealment. Brain converts conflicts into seizures. Not sure I agree that there are no attempts to hide these cognitive issues.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
Psychogenic seizures are typically experienced by girls and there has typically been some abuse and these young vulnerable brains are unable to cope with these traumas and the brain converts to neurological trauma
Dr B: so in these seizures there is no intent to deceive. So knowing what he is going through it must be emotionally traumatic and it is not uncommon to see these seizures, after epilepsy its the next most common cause when we see seizures
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Psychogenic non-epileptic seizures: Psychogenic disease (or psychogenic illness) is a name given to physical illnesses that are believed to arise from emotional or mental stressors, or from psychological or psychiatric disorders.
Conversion disorder is a mental condition in which a person has blindness, paralysis, or other nervous system (neurologic) symptoms that cannot be explained by medical evaluation. Subconscious process.
Dr. Butler mentions neurological traumas manifesting as a kind of paralysis. Says there is no attempt at concealment. Brain converts conflicts into seizures. Not sure I agree that there are no attempts to hide these cognitive issues.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Dr B: with that in mind we embarked on a rigorous scientific process. We did an EEG and I analysed the EEG data that afternoon and the EEG was entirely normal
Dr B: now shows a slide taken from a subsequent EEG report- this was normal
Adv B: there appears to be a spike? Dr B: No that is perfectly normal, each channel presents an electrical potential difference. Each channel references a different part of the head and brain
Dr B: so if you swallow or use muscles then it creates waves- this wave is an eye movement
Dr B: because the eye is positive he is closing his eye at this point.
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Dr. Butler refers to "unambiguous diagnosis" using "rigorous science."
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
Dr B: now shows a slide taken from a subsequent EEG report- this was normal
Adv B: there appears to be a spike? Dr B: No that is perfectly normal, each channel presents an electrical potential difference. Each channel references a different part of the head and brain
Dr B: so if you swallow or use muscles then it creates waves- this wave is an eye movement
Dr B: because the eye is positive he is closing his eye at this point.
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Dr. Butler refers to "unambiguous diagnosis" using "rigorous science."
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Dr B: at this point we should pause and explain why the subsequent tests were done, NB from evidence point of view is that every test has an important diagnostic use
Dr B: these are simple data points, sometimes a symptom may be more predictive and visa versa, we call an EEG test poorly sensitive but highly specific
Dr B: a test with poor sensitivity if you take 100 people who take the test only a small percentage will show abnormalities but if there is an abnormality then those people definitely have abnormalities
Dr B: if its negative you dont have an answer and its useless. If it is positive then you do have an answer that is why I admitted him to hospital to run more tests
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Dr B: these are simple data points, sometimes a symptom may be more predictive and visa versa, we call an EEG test poorly sensitive but highly specific
Dr B: a test with poor sensitivity if you take 100 people who take the test only a small percentage will show abnormalities but if there is an abnormality then those people definitely have abnormalities
Dr B: if its negative you dont have an answer and its useless. If it is positive then you do have an answer that is why I admitted him to hospital to run more tests
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
JudgeJudi
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 10,621
- Reaction score
- 31,364
Dr B: I consulted with him to obtain historical data and to proceed with more tests. He was admitted after midday on the Friday and electrodes were applied and we recorded his brains electro activity continuously for 24hrs
Dr B: we also monitored his heart and this process has multiple advantages and the spikes I referred to earlier when they appear on EEG thats a strong predictor of the presence of epilepsy. You also record events and seizures or symptoms
Dr B: many patients have minor seizures and when they have symptoms like de ja vu and a rising feeling in their stomach we ask that they push a button and we record that and can see if that is a seizure or not
Dr B: i have personally investigated this way about 3500 people in our hospital and we investigate where seizures start some patients we implant in their brains to monitor activity
Dr B: majority people have focal epilepsy and that will be in one part of the brain and we can operate on that. That is different to patients who have general epilepsy
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Dr. Butler: "Because the test was useless, I arranged for a longer EEG - for a 24 hour period." Henri thus admitted to hospital Friday and over the weekend.
Henri arrived sometime after midday and was constantly monitored over 24 hours.
Dr. Butler: "You can clinically record seizures, blackouts whatever." Btw the word "black out" was first used by Henri when he called EMS on the morning of January 27th. Thereafter referred to himself "fainting", "losing consciousness" etc.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
Dr B: we also monitored his heart and this process has multiple advantages and the spikes I referred to earlier when they appear on EEG thats a strong predictor of the presence of epilepsy. You also record events and seizures or symptoms
Dr B: many patients have minor seizures and when they have symptoms like de ja vu and a rising feeling in their stomach we ask that they push a button and we record that and can see if that is a seizure or not
Dr B: i have personally investigated this way about 3500 people in our hospital and we investigate where seizures start some patients we implant in their brains to monitor activity
Dr B: majority people have focal epilepsy and that will be in one part of the brain and we can operate on that. That is different to patients who have general epilepsy
https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en
Dr. Butler: "Because the test was useless, I arranged for a longer EEG - for a 24 hour period." Henri thus admitted to hospital Friday and over the weekend.
Henri arrived sometime after midday and was constantly monitored over 24 hours.
Dr. Butler: "You can clinically record seizures, blackouts whatever." Btw the word "black out" was first used by Henri when he called EMS on the morning of January 27th. Thereafter referred to himself "fainting", "losing consciousness" etc.
https://twitter.com/HiRezLife
- Status