South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4

[JudgeJudi]

Butler says #VanBreda wetting his pants has profound neurological significance. Desai says this is a common occurrence. Does this take case any further?

https://twitter.com/TeamNews24

Interesting that Henri "lost control of his bladder". Think there was urine and ***** on his shorts [the latter from defecating and not wiping]. Makes one wonder, either way.

Dr Butler says it is very rare to see people malingering in private practice, more common in public hospitals where people want to benefit from social grants. Researched malingering and amnesia, literature doesn't indicate it being used post event.

Like Desai taking the doctor to task on wetting pants being exclusively related to seizures. It's not. It's very common. Urine also a factor in #JonBenetRamsey case. When someone dies, sphincter relaxes and waste naturally drains from body.

https://twitter.com/HiRezLife

 

[JudgeJudi]

Desai asks if wetting the pants could be a result of the trauma of his family being murdered. Dr Butler says it's not just a "glipsie". [mistake]

Lack of urgency in the emergency call made by #VanBreda could indicate him being in a postictal state, Dr Butler says.

Court adjourned until tomorrow at 10:00.

[URL]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Dr. Butler shows the court an image of Henri's urine-stained shorts. I believe these are from the crime scene. This might explain, potentially, Rudi sleeping in the lounge, or at least, wishing to sleep in the lounge - if his brother was bedwetting.

Desai refers to Henri wetting his shorts as insignificant. Dr. Butler begs to differ. "It's not a glipsie."

We see it [wetting oneself] in patients with advanced dementia. Well, also in someone with a big babalas, ne.

Botha still not done and it's 15:38. Desai's hopes of having evidence phase done by Thursday looking a little unlikely. Verdict next year?

[URL]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

I had no idea Butler would be on the stand all day. I thought Botha only wanted to ask him two questions, or have got the wrong witness?

 

[Tortoise]

Thank you very much JJ.

I don't think I can be bothered to watch it after reading the tweets. Someone else who is enjoying his time on the stand, nothing pertinent to the murders.

I'm only interested in what Galloway has to say. This is all mega BS and time-wasting.

 

[Interested Bystander]

#VanBreda has myoclonus, the name given for his jerks and twitching.

VanBreda was oblivious to his myoclonus, the only one he chose from list of symptoms. Coincides with what was found on EEG, Dr Butler says.

Patients can have minor seizures that they fob off, or have minor or major ones in their sleep.

Compelling evidence #VanBreda had a seizure on night of murders - neurologist

Dr Butler says focal epilepsy has a warning. Lack of warning - as reported by #VanBreda - indicates generalised epilepsy rather than one that starts in one part of the brain.

https://twitter.com/TeamNews24

IB, come home soon. We need you to comment.

Hi JJ, I have just got in and have caught up to this point on the board. My feeling is that if there are definitely EEG abnormalities he very likely does have epilepsy (thought I don't see how this is relevant to the case from the point of view as to whether he committed the murders). For me it is entirely irrelevant. I imagine Desai will think the same.

I am also surprised to read that Butler says lack of warning indicates generalised epilepsy. I have always been led to believe that the patient gets some sort of warning but maybe he does, and doesn't recognise it. Also antidepressants can cause a form of epilepsy. and we know he is taking something "for his nerves". Mainly the older drugs are more likely to cause a seizure, the newer drugs are less likely too. I don't think we know what he is on.

I am beginning to think he is adding too much detail and it is being unhelpful and confusing. He really should have left it that the EEG showed abormalities and that this confirms he has epilepsy of sorts. Too bl**dy clever some of these expert witnesses who create problems when showing off their knowledge. You know me JJ, I am a cynic.

I am off to read the rest of the posts.

 

[Bohemian]

Thank you for the trial commentary today, JJ. Good wishes for your coming surgery x

 

[Interested Bystander]

I am beginning to wonder if Botha is going down the route of murder whilst in an epileptic seizure. Many murderers are also known to suffer from epilepsy and various medics have drawn conclusions that murders can be committed whilst in this state. I think it is called epileptic automatism. Heaven forbid we go down that route but Botha will try if he thinks he can capitalise on it.

Re my comment about most generalised epileptics getting an aura before a fit. I have just read an article where several hundred patients with generalised epilepsy were closely monitored and 67 per cent had an aura of some sort or other but obviously that leaves 33 per cent who did not. Maybe I should eat my words.

 

[Tortoise]

If it was a case like OP where he fired the gun, yes it could be a defence. But not where he has concocted this lie about an intruder, or two.

 

[Tortoise]

HiRezLife posted a pic of Dr Butler holding up a photo of Henri's urine stained shorts. It looks to me like the back of the shorts, with the slit pocket, in which case Henri would have had to be seated or lying down on his back to get that stain, not lying on his front on the stairs as claimed.

https://twitter.com/HiRezLife

 

[Interested Bystander]

If it was a case like OP where he fired the gun, yes it could be a defence. But not where he has concocted this lie about an intruder, or two.

Yes, Botha will not encourage him to now change his plea. I suppose it is very unlikely HVB will alter his plea even if he thought it would get him off a murder charge. He has told too many lies making it impossible to retract and say that he made it up because he really could not remember what happened.

Another hairbrain thought from me ��

 

[bleuboy]

Thankyou so much for today's tweets JJ and I really mean that. I had to stop watching at the point were Desai asked butler would Henri's seizures get worse with age and butler skated all around and didn't answer the question, then even Botha had to stop him and ask the question for judge Desai. He loved the sound of his voice. He reminded me of a peacock showing off its lovely colours and shaking its tail feathers lol... He was a really boring witness and I can't wait for Galloway to question him.
Thanks again JJ and I will also pray for you tonight. *advertiser censored*

 

[JudgeJudi]

HiRezLife posted a pic of Dr Butler holding up a photo of Henri's urine stained shorts. It looks to me like the back of the shorts, with the slit pocket, in which case Henri would have had to be seated or lying down on his back to get that stain, not lying on his front on the stairs as claimed.

https://twitter.com/HiRezLife

67 bloodstains were found on the front of his sleep shorts. Captain Joubert told the court that some of the blood spatter on the shorts were “saturated in urine”.

http://www.2oceansvibe.com/2017/09/12/henri-van-bredas-socks-could-send-him-to-the-slammer/

I'll be discreet as I can . Think about a man's anatomy. Don't you think the front is more likely to be saturated.

 

[JudgeJudi]

The timing of this alleged seizure is just too convenient for my liking. Butler can’t comment on it as he’s merely going on what HvB told him, and Danielle has a vested interest in keeping him out of prison. How nice that she contacted her father, a GP who takes it upon himself to ring Butler who just happens to be a neurosurgeon who specialises in epilepsy.

He said he had the seizure on Wednesday, 8 November. I thought it would be interesting to see if what happened in court prior to the 8th had anything to do with the alleged seizure.

Go back and read Galloway’s final day of cross-examination on Monday, 6 November commencing at #796. That would have been enough to give HvB an apoplectic fit … literally.

Definition:
A malady, very sudden in its attack, which arrests more or less completely the powers of sense and motion; it is usually caused by an effusion of blood or serum in the brain, and preceded by giddiness, partial loss of muscular power, etc.

HvB would have been extremely stressed ever since his absolute grilling on Monday. If he had a past history of seizures, why didn't he mention this to the doctors who saw him following the murders? Surely it would have been relevant.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Botha said he wishes to call one further witness, a psychologist. He wants her report to be entered into court. He says they asked her 2 questions and asked for answers in writing.

Aha, the 2 questions I referred to in #1083 were for the psychologist. It will be interesting to hear how long it takes her to answer.

Desai objected to the idea of a psychologist who must tell the court how to evaluate the witness.

 

[Fluffykins]

Of the trials I’ve watched since joining WS, this is the one I’m most passionate about, but it’s been such an ordeal following it and many times I've wanted to abandon it. OP was bad enough with an alleged intruder who robbed a clever, talented and much loved woman of her life just as an exciting future was rapidly unfolding before her.

Now we have yet another alleged intruder, but this individual robbed three people - Martin, Teresa and Rudi, and nearly Marli, of their lives. It would be a travesty of justice of unimaginable proportions if HvB gets off scot-free. I can only speak for myself, but I hope he goes to prison for the rest of his life. That probably won’t happen, but no sentence can be long enough as far as I’m concerned.

:goodpost: :winner: :yourock:

Couldn't agree more if I tried!!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Butler said HvB’s girlfriend said that in approximately Feb 2016 he became emotional one evening and a short while later, without any warning, he again lost his memory, but it was dark and his girlfriend couldn't see what he looked like. She said she saw he was shaking and then appeared out of it and very tired.

Butler said this enquiry is relevant to whether he has epilepsy and to whether he has focal epilepsy.

Unless Danielle comes to court and testifies regarding this and is cross-examined, this is hearsay and shouldn't be admitted into evidence.

It's one thing for Butler to produce evidence such as the EEG, but anything HvB says about what happened prior to or on the night of the murders is mere speculation.

 

[Fluffykins]

I can't see any point whatever to all this evidence re seizures. What does it have to do with the murders? I'm just ... :dunno:

 

[L2L]

Don't know how much of Dr Butler I can put up with tonight! If only he'd get to the point (if there is one!) instead of enjoying listening to his own voice & displaying his expertise on amnesia.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Adv Botha asks about #VanBreda wetting himself that night. Dr Butler says there was a large amount of urine that permeated his pants. This amount in a 'glipsie' when he got off toilet is inconsistent.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Dr James Butler is back in the witness stand today as we expect Adv Susan Galloway to commence cross-examination during the day

Defence witness Dr Butler speaking about the bladder system and how it's affected by seizures

B: Upon leaving the bathroom, Henri would have experienced "flight or fight" mode, where bladder and sphincter would have contracted

https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

 

[L2L]

Adv Botha asks about #VanBreda wetting himself that night. Dr Butler says there was a large amount of urine that permeated his pants. This amount in a 'glipsie' when he got off toilet is inconsistent.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Dr James Butler is back in the witness stand today as we expect Adv Susan Galloway to commence cross-examination during the day

Defence witness Dr Butler speaking about the bladder system and how it's affected by seizures

B: Upon leaving the bathroom, Henri would have experienced "flight or fight" mode, where bladder and sphincter would have contracted

https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

So we've moved from the brain to the 'nether' regions! HELP!